Immigration choices for highly skilled migrants

[vinay shanthi]

hi everyone

i came across this well thought out message on www.hsmpforumltd.com

i have edited it a bit. am forwarding this so that many more careers are not ruined by discriminatory retrospective effects of new legislation as is happening in UK presently. so it is time for a reality check for everyone considering migrating. but please remember rules keep changing and this laypersons opinion is appropriate as on 4th august 2007.

bye ... vinay shanthi

If you want to migrate ....

Migrating to another country is a tough thing to do
giving up your job, family, business, selling your house, valuables etc.

Plan before you migrate !

Ask yourself :

what is the best country for me ?

will i be able to get a job for my qualification's?


The Truth :

will i have trouble with immigration (extension's and retrospective new legislation ) ? In UK you need periodic extension's (immigrants presently need 75 point's to get extension but as per recent precedents rules can change as and when pleases the govt and affect people already admitted under old schemes)

which country(s) dont need immigrant visa extension's ? CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

which country(s) will not presently implement restropective immigration law changes ? CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

which country(s) will my children have a better future (affordable higher education & future job etc.) CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

which country(s) allow immigrant's to take a maternity leave without loosing the visa ? CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

what happends to my family if i become sick or i die ?
In CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand) every skilled immigrant's family have permenent resident's status(no need to worry about family)
In UK family will not qualify for extension

Choose the best country for your immigration because these day's countries are looking for skilled immigrant's/student's/investor's etc. people like YOU-

So look out for these

1. Clear path to permanent residence and citizenship (help's the immigrant get good job security, apply for good jobs, no sudden deportation/removal )

2. Local tution fees (university & school) for children & loan for the local fee (why pay $10000's more as foreigners fees. also you can get loan from government just like the locals fee even on immigrant category!!)

3. No need for visa extention's (saves $1000's) and no restropective immigration law changes which affect your future as presently happening in UK

4. English classes and support for all immigrant's (everybody not just asylum seekers)

5. Benefit Access if have unforeseen career or health adverse effects (Tax Credits for hard working immigrant's and their families)

6. Sponsor your children over 18/21(fair and humane dependent visa policy), parent's, brother's, sister's other blood relatives

7. Everybody who get's skilled migrant visa will have permanent resident's status (no begging for extension's and worrying about new law changes that affect your future. your career can be ruined if affected by retrospective legislation and you have to start elsewhere all over again)

8. Maternity leave & no sleepless night's worring about extension's

Best skilled immigration destinations presently are CAN (Canada, Australia, New zealand) and they welcome skilled migrants.

Please spread the word to would be migrant's (tell family, friends, post this message in blog's etc.) Remember the choices you make today when migrating, may make or break your career if affected by retrospective effects of new legislation.

Same things apply to those wishing to study abroad with the intention of working in the countries they study in.

Best of luck. Please check the current situation if and when you decide to migrate.

edited this message later. ps: sorry for the repeat post moderators. i saw the other similar post by chinn after posting this one.
__________________

[Siggi]

Everyone makes his or hers choice's in life, which he or she thinks is the best for them at some point in thier life.

If they choose to live in the UK and the choice turns out bad, don't moan like stuffed pig's, about how unfair life is in te UK , just move on if you are so skilled or move back to where you come from.

Rember most of us choose to live in the UK!

[vinay shanthi]

Everyone makes his or hers choice's in life, which he or she thinks is the best for them at some point in thier life.

If they choose to live in the UK and the choice turns out bad, don't moan like stuffed pig's, about how unfair life is in te UK , just move on if you are so skilled or move back to where you come from.

Rember most of us choose to live in the UK!

hi siggi

there is no need to be rude. i just posted the message so that others might think of options before making a move. this forum is for helping people not for sledging people.

personally the retrospective rules presently does not affect me, but i can see how badly it has affected others. nothing wrong in supporting others who are in trouble for no fault of theirs. if you dont have anything constructive to add, the least you can do is stop sledging others.

i am happy here, have a permanent job and visa to take me till ILR if rules dont change further. but like you said am skilled enough to find a job anywhere to live comfortably. no problems even if i have to go back where i came from. i am proud of where i came from by the way.

lets stop being petty and try to help others on this or any forum. i was just giving information as i see it. i was not trying to harm anyone or sledge anyone.

have a nice day. no hard feelings on my part. let us move on from this siggi. bye.

[herts]

Siggi,
If you were successful in finding a decent job and getting all what you expected you should not sound so cunning.

[zalimet]

I fully support vinay shanthi in posting that information, it is more looking out for people or guiding people in making choices it is not forcing that upon them as they are the one to make the choice themselves.

This message is just informative, I find it rather interesting so thanks Vinay!

[vinay shanthi]

hi everyone

see this presentation by work permits uk European & International Policy Manager on international organization of migration website which i think is affiliated to UN and has 120 countries as members.

http://www.iom.int/jahia/webdav/site/my ... ndrell.pdf

am not sure what this is implying that in the new PBS due to be launched in early 2008. looks like tier 1 is only for those occupations on the shortage occupation list !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and nhs employers website clearly says that all nhs ocupations should be taken off the shortage occupation list. i had written about this earlier on indi_go forum, so all doctors on HSMP will be affected as far as my understanding goes. same goes for IT professionals and nurses who are not in shortage list anymore. i dont know what occupations are on the shortage occupation list.

so guys on all forums decide if you want to fund the legal action by http://www.hsmpforumltd.com regarding these retrospective effects of new legislation. the choice is yours, fight for your rights or face the music on your own when you get your deportation order when the hsmp scheme is scrapped next year and you may not be eligible for tier 1.

remember even if your present employer manages to get you a work permit instead or rather tier 2 job under the new scheme. tier 2 = present workpermit, but when converting from hsmp to work permit, it resets your ILR clock and all previous stay in uk is not considered for ILR !!!!!!!! so you will need a further 5y under work permit for ILR.

the choice is yours. fund legal action on behalf of immigrant organisations fighting for immigrants rights or be penny wise and pound foolish and face the music on your own later. food for thought.

anyone not on the shortage occupation list even if they make the points criteria will be affected as far as my understanding goes.

dont know when this presentation is from. but that is besides the point.

the point is that there has been a policy formulated in home office as can be seen by this presentation that tier 1 will only be for those in shortage occupations list. so if hsmp is scrapped next year, as it most likely will. what happens to all those that need renewals of HSMP? any guesses.

going by past precedent what happened to those in old hsmp scheme. i think those on hsmp will be asked to requalify under new tier based scheme. very few will qualify for tier 1. all the rest if lucky and employer is willing will apply for work permits / tier 2 in new scheme. their ILR clock will reset to zero and need further 5y for ILR. just an educated guess after seeing the presentation and knowing what home office has done in the past.

so in the meantime it is best to fund legal challenge and also have plan B. incase things dont work out as we want it to.

i am only posting the link to the presentation and my thoughts on that so people can prepare for plan B in case things dont work out and in the mean time fund legal action as well if more retrospective effects occurs with new points based scheme.

for those interested in funding legal action on retrospective effects of new immigration legislation go to http://www.hsmpforumltd.com and http://www.vbsi.org.uk and http://www.bapioaction.moonfruit.com

regards ...

vinay shanthi

[gordon]

The presentation is dated, and there is no current evidence that suggests that HSMP will be scrapped next year; rather, the suggestion has been made over the last eighteen months that HSMP will largely be constitute by tier 1 in the system to be rolled out beginning in 2008. Tier 2 is meant to address shortage occupations in part, as modelled on the current work permits programme, not tier 1. Only the most negligent reading of the recent literature and policy statements would conflate the two tiers.

I agree that people should make informed decisions (based on available information), and that they should have contingency plans. However, I do not think that others should prey on that by spreading alarmist misinformation.

AG

[PaperPusher]

Hello vinay shanthi

I can't see what that presentation is to do with the Points Based System. It looks like an out of date overview of Work Permits UK.

Anyway, the shortage occupation list has always had occupations come on to the list and others come off. I thought that it was actually supposed to respond to known labour shortages. Why would doctors and IT professionals here on HSMP be directly affected by the shortage occupation list?

Furthermore, couldn't a person here on HSMP actually be doing a job which would also be in the current Tier 1 scheme?

dont know when this presentation is from. but that is besides the point.

But I think the date of anything published is very much the point.

[vinay shanthi]

hi AG and Paperpusher

if you see the 5th slide in the presentation. it is about 'tier 1'

there it clearly says
"Intra Company Transfers (ICT)
Multinational company employees transferring to a skilled post
in the UK
Board Level Posts
Inward Investment
New posts essential to an inward investment project
Shortage Occupations
Where WP(UK) acknowledge very short supply of suitably
qualified/skilled people
Sponsored researchers"
Allows researchers to undertake dedicated research projects"

and in next slide for 'tier 2' it says the usual work permit stuff
"For all applications except those included in Tier 1
Employers need to show why the post cannot be filled
with a resident worker and give details of
recruitment methods"

i have just said what was on the slides and my understanding of that. it clearly mentions shortage occupations even in tier 1

also regarding doctors if you go to the nhsemployers website. it clearly says in a consultation / policy document that nhsemployers has advised that all nhs occupations be taken off the shortage occupation list. so that applies for nurses as well on workpermits. there have been newspaper reports of nurses in birmingham area being refused workpermit refusals as it is no longer on shortage occupation list. according to the presentation if tier 1 is only for those on shortage occupation list. then that would rule out doctors coming up for hsmp renewals.

when old hsmp scheme was modified and replaced by the new hsmp scheme, whoever was on the old scheme when coming up for renewals had to requalify under the new scheme. those who didnt requalify on points had to apply for work permits which resets the ILR clock. similarly when new tier PBS replaces HSMP mostly next year as per reports on ghersons etc, what happens to people on hsmp needing renewals. isnt it very likely as per precedent set for those on old hsmp who had to requalify under new hsmp scheme, the same logic will apply here and those needing hsmp renewals will have to requalify under tier 1. if they dont then obviously like before under transitional arrangements they might have to apply for workpermits / tier 2 without local requirement test. but that would reset the ILR clock as going out of hsmp.

see http://www.gherson.com/articles/proposa ... ration-law where it says "Beginning of 2008: Tier 1 of the system, which caters for highly skilled migrants and is the successor to the current Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP), although it may cover a different group of people and have different requirements"

i understand it is worrying. this forum has wellinformed members and approved immigration advisors, it would be foolish for me or anyone to deliberately give wrong information. could it not be that i just posted that message for a clarification from the approved immigration advisors on the forum who might have a better idea of these things.

bye ...

[olisun]

so guys on all forums decide if you want to fund the legal action by http://www.hsmpforumltd.com regarding these retrospective effects of new legislation. the choice is yours, fight for your rights or face the music on your own

It's good to see you are fighting for a noble cause but isn't it funny, back in your home country (India don't know much about other countries as I am from India) the govt has changed hundreds of rules / prices without any consultations.

The ministers have denied food / facilities to so many poor people yet have you ever done anything like this (legal challenges against the Indian govt.) to support those poor people (your own fellow country men) ?

[vinay shanthi]

hi olisun,

i am not fighting for a 'noble' cause. am only doing because this interests me. we all pick our battles, we win some we lose some. but we all choose to ignore some battles or to move on.

the same rule applies to every country not just india. you have mentioned india. just because there are wrong things happening in other places does not mean it is justified either there in india or here in uk. since you are from india, take a good guess why people shy from the courts etc there, see the long waiting period for them getting resolved.

[Siggi]

Vinay Shanti,
My comments regarding your posting had neither the intention of been rude or offensive to you or anyone on this site.
I just get tired of people moaning about how unfair the system is in the UK, when we have all made the conscious decisions to make the UK our country of work and residences.

[olisun]

Yes the same rule applies to every country and not just India but I don't want to comment on any other country other than India and maybe UK now, since I don't know much about their internal matters.

see the long waiting period for them getting resolved.

So??? You are saying that the easiest solution is to ignore them and let your fellow country men including you take all the shit without saying anything???

[olisun]

I just get tired of people moaning about how unfair the system is in the UK, when we have all made the conscious decisions to make the UK our country of work and residences.

True

People give examples of other countries where they get ILR right on the day they enter that country, but they fail to mention the time and trouble it takes to pass the various hurdles.

[PaperPusher]

Hello vinay shanthi

if you see the 5th slide in the presentation. it is about 'tier 1'

there it clearly says
"Intra Company Transfers (ICT)
Multinational company employees transferring to a skilled post
in the UK
Board Level Posts
Inward Investment
New posts essential to an inward investment project
Shortage Occupations
Where WP(UK) acknowledge very short supply of suitably
qualified/skilled people
Sponsored researchers"
Allows researchers to undertake dedicated research projects"

and in next slide for 'tier 2' it says the usual work permit stuff
"For all applications except those included in Tier 1
Employers need to show why the post cannot be filled
with a resident worker and give details of
recruitment methods"

i have just said what was on the slides and my understanding of that. it clearly mentions shortage occupations even in tier 1

If you look at the current Business and Commercial guidance notes from paragraph 18 onwards about categories of application, you will see that this is what the slide is refering to. The slide is refering to the current work permit criteria, which is actually also split into Tier 1 and Tier 2. The slideshow is old and out of date however, so when I say current, I mean pre PBS.

So, as far as I understand it, HSMP will be called Tier 1 under the proposed PBS. However, the current Tier 1 and Tier 2 Business and Commercial work permits will both then be called Tier 2.

18. There are two main types of application under the Business and Commercial work permit arrangements - Tier 1 and Tier 2. The WP1
application form has two distinct sections that relate to each type of application.

I think you may have confused the current system which has something called Tier 1 and Tier 2, with the proposed PBS.

You also said

which country(s) allow immigrant's to take a maternity leave without loosing the visa ? CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

If you are on a WP and still employed by your employer whilst on maternity leave, I don't see why that should affect the visa or WP. As far as somone not getting an HSMP extension, because whilst on this type of leave they haven't earned enough due to maternity pay, or someone having the work permit revoked, I would be interested to see how an appeal would go!

[vinay shanthi]

Hello vinay shanthi

if you see the 5th slide in the presentation. it is about 'tier 1'

there it clearly says
"Intra Company Transfers (ICT)
Multinational company employees transferring to a skilled post
in the UK
Board Level Posts
Inward Investment
New posts essential to an inward investment project
Shortage Occupations
Where WP(UK) acknowledge very short supply of suitably
qualified/skilled people
Sponsored researchers"
Allows researchers to undertake dedicated research projects"

and in next slide for 'tier 2' it says the usual work permit stuff
"For all applications except those included in Tier 1
Employers need to show why the post cannot be filled
with a resident worker and give details of
recruitment methods"

i have just said what was on the slides and my understanding of that. it clearly mentions shortage occupations even in tier 1

If you look at the current Business and Commercial guidance notes from paragraph 18 onwards about categories of application, you will see that this is what the slide is refering to. The slide is refering to the current work permit criteria, which is actually also split into Tier 1 and Tier 2. The slideshow is old and out of date however, so when I say current, I mean pre PBS.

So, as far as I understand it, HSMP will be called Tier 1 under the proposed PBS. However, the current Tier 1 and Tier 2 Business and Commercial work permits will both then be called Tier 2.

18. There are two main types of application under the Business and Commercial work permit arrangements - Tier 1 and Tier 2. The WP1
application form has two distinct sections that relate to each type of application.

I think you may have confused the current system which has something called Tier 1 and Tier 2, with the proposed PBS.

You also said

which country(s) allow immigrant's to take a maternity leave without loosing the visa ? CAN(Canada, Australia, New zealand)

If you are on a WP and still employed by your employer whilst on maternity leave, I don't see why that should affect the visa or WP. As far as somone not getting an HSMP extension, because whilst on this type of leave they haven't earned enough due to maternity pay, or someone having the work permit revoked, I would be interested to see how an appeal would go!

thanks paperpusher for clearing my doubt with your last post.

since people instead of giving a clear answer, instead people started going off on a tangent and making comments on it being alarmist / also making comments on my country of origin etc, i stopped posting on this thread as nothing useful seemed to be coming out of the discussion. so i asked around on other forums like www.hsmpforumltd.com and www.orkut.com (which has an 'indians in uk' community with 8000 members) and thankfully someone on the 1st forum explained to me that in work permits there are tiers as well. something similar was said by an OSIC advisor on orkut as well. but thankfully there was not a single post sledging me on those other forums but instead people answered the queries.

i have never needed a workpermit so didnt know there was tier 1 and 2 in the present scheme as well. that was the cause for the confusion as pointed out to me on www.hsmpforumltd.com

however your present post answered my query more eloquently than anyone else.

yes the maternity leave issue affecting income and subsequent renewals is an important issue for people on HSMP needing renewals. hope anyone who had these experiences enlightens us.

have a nice day.

[vinay shanthi]

see this report released an hour ago by the joint parliamentary committee on human rights on hsmp issues and retrospective legislation.

see my post regarding this on another thread http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 302#106302

hurray the joint committee has fully endorsed the view of all hsmps fighting the retrospective rules and called for no more retrospective legislation !!!!

as for those on this forum who were sledging earlier, you people might not care, but atleast there are a few people in power that do the honourable thing and fight for the rights of immigrants as well.

too bad there are always a few among us willing to pull us down and ask us to accept injustice just because we are immigrants and supposedly have to take what is dished out to us and shut up or ship out as can be seen by few posts in this thread.

hopefully with this damning report on the govt making retrospective legislation, now the govt will reconsider. legal opinion by the www.hsmpforumltd.com has already said that this report can be used in all legal action by immigrants fighting the effects of retrospective legislation.