Naturalisation - question re: claiming funds

[User1982]

Does claiming Tuition fee for university or college counts as claiming funds?

[noajthan]

Does claiming Tuition fee for university or college counts as claiming funds?

In what context?

Studying or claiming benefits or 'funds' is not a factor when applying for privilege of citizenship.

[User1982]

I entered as a dependant when I was child. While we had valid visa I applied for tuition fee for college, and I was granted and I continued to get this while I studied for 3 years. But during my studies my visa lapsed for 1.5 years. I was granted ILR after that in the long stay route.

Now I am applying for BC, I am trying to find if getting tuition fee awarded is defined as claiming fund that I was not entitled to. As you know the 10 year good character is not defined anywhere, HO asking how if I receive/claimed any benefits.

The question that they have asked is
What benefits did you receive during this period?
Please provide evidence eg notification or ward, schedules of payment.

[noajthan]

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread.

...

Now I am applying for BC, I am trying to find if getting tuition fee awarded is defined as claiming fund that I was not entitled to. As you know the 10 year good character is not defined anywhere, HO asking how if I receive/claimed any benefits.

The question that they have asked is
What benefits did you receive during this period?
Please provide evidence eg notification or ward, schedules of payment.

I see.

Well you can use this HO guidance to get into the mind of caseworker who will assess your case:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

[User1982]

OK thanks.I have already read the guidelines and was wanting others opinions or previous experience
.
For anyone interested in answering, then please feel free to do so.
I am looking at the guideline that is stated below:

Annex D: the good character requirement
9.7 Evasion of Immigration Control
(b) failed to comply with any conditions imposed under the Immigration Acts

[noajthan]

OK thanks.I have already read the guidelines and was wanting others opinions or previous experience
.
For anyone interested in answering, then please feel free to do so.
I am looking at the guideline that is stated below:

Annex D: the good character requirement
9.7 Evasion of Immigration Control
(b) failed to comply with any conditions imposed under the Immigration Acts

So if you're asking if anyone evading immigration control (&/or indulging in deception) ever received a refusal & ban then the answer is Yes.
The forum is packed to the hilt with cases like these.

Regarding public funds, read section 6.3 of link posted above.
Abuse of public funds clearly results in refusal.

... knowingly drawing or has knowingly drawn public funds to which they are not entitled. Where this is the case, the decisionmaker will normally refuse the application

[Amber]

Are you saying you received a loan from the student loans company? If so, did you complete the application truthfully?

[User1982]

Hi Amber,
Yes, the form was completed truthfully and all relevant ID, payslips was sent to show that I was eligible for it while I still held my valid leave to remain. As the course progressed I only had to inform the fee paying organisation that I was still attending the course. They did not ask further proof leave to remain since starting the course.
As halfway through the course I lost my visa but then after few years I was granted ILR in long stay route.

[User1982]

Are you saying you received a loan from the student loans company? If so, did you complete the application truthfully?

Hi Amber,

Reading your post again - NO. IT IS NOT A LOAN. It was a tuition fee that was directly paid by the organisation to the college. It did not go via my bank account nor I have been given a receipt for it.

[CR001]

Are you saying you received a loan from the student loans company? If so, did you complete the application truthfully?

Hi Amber,

Reading your post again - NO. IT IS NOT A LOAN. It was a tuition fee that was directly paid by the organisation to the college. It did not go via my bank account nor I have been given a receipt for it.

If you applied through the Student Loan/Finance Company, who pays the college the fee directly, it is a loan to you and has to be paid back. You need to be settled in the UK and have at least 3 years residence to qualify for this.

Migrants on Limited Leave to Remain do not usually qualify.

[User1982]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I am gonna update this thread for others benefits.

"If you applied through the Student Loan/Finance Company, who pays the college the fee directly, it is a loan to you and has to be paid back."
Actually I have studied in Scotland and the rules are slightly different from England. I spoke with some of the scottish people that are resident here and as far as they tell me, they were not contacted since leaving college about paying back the tuition fee.
Furthermore I have contacted my the college asking if they can suggests anything about previous fee rules. I will post my findings.

"You need to be settled in the UK and have at least 3 years residence to qualify for this."
I was settled more than 3 years, as I entered UK as a dependant.

"Migrants on Limited Leave to Remain do not usually qualify."
Probably and most likely not, but I applied and supplied with all the (valid) documents and I was granted. If I was refused for any reasons then I would simply paid my own tuition fee, but I did not have to.

[CR001]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I am gonna update this thread for others benefits.

"If you applied through the Student Loan/Finance Company, who pays the college the fee directly, it is a loan to you and has to be paid back."
Actually I have studied in Scotland and the rules are slightly different from England. I spoke with some of the scottish people that are resident here and as far as they tell me, they were not contacted since leaving college about paying back the tuition fee.
Furthermore I have contacted my the college asking if they can suggests anything about previous fee rules. I will post my findings.
It usually helps if you post a question to state ALL the relevant details. This reduces the need for back and forth questions.

"You need to be settled in the UK and have at least 3 years residence to qualify for this."
I was settled more than 3 years, as I entered UK as a dependant.
You are only considered settled when you have ILR, not a dependent visa.

"Migrants on Limited Leave to Remain do not usually qualify."
Probably and most likely not, but I applied and supplied with all the (valid) documents and I was granted. If I was refused for any reasons then I would simply paid my own tuition fee, but I did not have to.

[noajthan]

UK CISA is the authoritative source for answers to these (& related) questions:
http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Information--A ... the-basics

[cs95tdg]

I was settled more than 3 years, as I entered UK as a dependant.

I think you may be confusing the two requirements that exist to qualify as a home student (for tuition fees/grants/loans):
A) That you need to have been ordinarily resident in the UK for at least 3 years.
B) That you were settled (ILR) in the UK at the time.

The link that noajthan has posted covers all requirements including those for Scotland.

[User1982]

Hello,
After checking with my college, they only have enough information to state that my fee was paid in full by the fee paying organisation. Anything else – I have to contact the organisation directly.
So for my first attempt I phoned the fee paying organisation number and asked briefly these questions and these are the answers:

After introducing myself and giving full details.

Me: Was I eligible for a home student fee as I was in UK for more than 3 years preceding the course?
Ans: Yes, this is a means tested tuition fee, and not everybody is eligible. All relevant P60 and income details are needed to be sent for assessed.

Me: I applied as a home student and the fee was granted, would you have any details if there are anything outstanding loan.
Ans: If we did not claim any money from you when you started working, then there should not be.

Me: So there is nothing for me to pay back?
Ans: If there is nothing to be claimed by us then there should be no reason for you to pay anything. It will usually show on your payslip how much you have left.

At end he said as I am not a current student, they will have my full info in their archive. I will have to submit an enquiry form with all my details and what exactly I am trying to find out, as the regulations have varied over the years.

And this is my point, the regulations have varied over years and I am going back 16 years, when rules were different.
I suppose I will have to dig further if I want to know whether it was a mistake by the fee paying organisation or because the college did not inform them or any other reason.

[noajthan]

Hello,
After checking with my college, they only have enough information to state that my fee was paid in full by the fee paying organisation. Anything else – I have to contact the organisation directly.
So for my first attempt I phoned the fee paying organisation number and asked briefly these questions and these are the answers:

After introducing myself and giving full details.

Me: Was I eligible for a home student fee as I was in UK for more than 3 years preceding the course?
Ans: Yes, this is a means tested tuition fee, and not everybody is eligible. All relevant P60 and income details are needed to be sent for assessed.

Me: I applied as a home student and the fee was granted, would you have any details if there are anything outstanding loan.
Ans: If we did not claim any money from you when you started working, then there should not be.

Me: So there is nothing for me to pay back?
Ans: If there is nothing to be claimed by us then there should be no reason for you to pay anything. It will usually show on your payslip how much you have left.

At end he said as I am not a current student, they will have my full info in their archive. I will have to submit an enquiry form with all my details and what exactly I am trying to find out, as the regulations have varied over the years.

And this is my point, the regulations have varied over years and I am going back 16 years, when rules were different.
I suppose I will have to dig further if I want to know whether it was a mistake by the fee paying organisation or because the college did not inform them or any other reason.

If you did not have ILR (settled status) on your first day of college then it is unclear how you managed to be categorised as a Home student & pay Home fees.
This is in addition to having lived in Uk for at least 3 years. Just living in UK is not enough.

It sounds like someone assumed you were British and did not check your passport & visa/immigration status and residency.

Surely you would know if you had an outstanding loan as you would have applied for it in the first place.

[User1982]

If you did not have ILR (settled status) on your first day of college then it is unclear how you managed to be categorised as a Home student & pay Home fees.
This is in addition to having lived in Uk for at least 3 years. Just living in UK is not enough.

It sounds like someone assumed you were British and did not check your passport & visa/immigration status and residency.

Surely you would know if you had an outstanding loan as you would have applied for it in the first place.

If someone assumed even after checking all my passport and my parents payslip before granting to offer to pay the tuition fee, its a great thing. But in hindsight, if I knew about all the changes that would be taking place after 17 years of applying for the fee, I wouldn't have done it.
But how do make a caseworker understand that.

I know I do not have any outstanding loan- but I still have to state if I have taken any benefits during the years I did not have valid leave to remain.

And whats more- instead of checking for last 10 years, UKVI has decided to go back to last 16 years of what I did, how I paid for accommodation etc.

[cs95tdg]

If someone assumed even after checking all my passport and my parents payslip before granting to offer to pay the tuition fee, its a great thing. But in hindsight, if I knew about all the changes that would be taking place after 17 years of applying for the fee, I wouldn't have done it.
But how do make a caseworker understand that.

I know I do not have any outstanding loan- but I still have to state if I have taken any benefits during the years I did not have valid leave to remain.

And whats more- instead of checking for last 10 years, UKVI has decided to go back to last 16 years of what I did, how I paid for accommodation etc.

Not sure if your questions here are in preparation for BC, or whether you have already applied and this has been raised by the HO. Is there any reason that you can think of to understand why you were incorrectly classified as a home student? Anything you/your parents mentioned on your application forms or perhaps stamped on your passports?

With respect to the residence & immigration requirements around how someone is classified as a home student goes, they have not changed in the recent past - at least not over the last couple of decades. I know this from friends and a British sibling who went through the assessment process to establish whether they met all the requirements to be classified as a home or overseas student for tuition fee and grant purposes including maintenance support depending on the income level of parents.

[noajthan]

...

So for my first attempt I phoned the fee paying organisation number and asked briefly these questions and these are the answers:

After introducing myself and giving full details.

Me: Was I eligible for a home student fee as I was in UK for more than 3 years preceding the course?
Ans: Yes, this is a means tested tuition fee, and not everybody is eligible. All relevant P60 and income details are needed to be sent for assessed.

...

This is clearly not a rigorous, comprehensive nor definitive assessment of your status.

A telephone helpline operative may not be fully-trained in the nuances of student fees assessment (especially dating back to circa 2000).

And whats more- instead of checking for last 10 years, UKVI has decided to go back to last 16 years of what I did, how I paid for accommodation etc.

Why has UKVI now initiated enquiries into your history for past 16 years? - on what basis?

[User1982]

This is clearly not a rigorous, comprehensive nor definitive assessment of your status.

A telephone helpline operative may not be fully-trained in the nuances of student fees assessment (especially dating back to circa 2000)

I realize that.

Why has UKVI now initiated inquiries into your history for past 16 years? - on what basis?

I had lapsed my valid visa to stay while I was studying 2000.
I was granted LTR after I finished my study.
Once a total of 17 years in UK have passed I was granted ILR in 2010.

HO has presented me with an open ending question stating how did I support my self during my no valid leave to remain period and what fund did I take:

What benefits did you receive during this period?
Please provide evidence eg notification or ward, schedules of payment.

So I am trying find why HO is going with this.

[cs95tdg]

Up until this, it wasn't clear whether you had already applied for BC.
Looking at your naturalisation time below, can you confirm if your ILR was granted on the basis of the 14 year route (this would have permitted both legal & illegal residence to be considered for ILR), which has since then been abolished? This may shed some light as to why the HO are making these enquiries. I suspect this would be linked to the Good character requirement for naturalisation, and to establish whether you met the requirement during the 5 year period prior to being granted ILR, based on the information you have posted in your timeline.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... l#p1308741

[User1982]

Him thanks again guys. I have made a timeline for my past.

1992- I was a child and entered UK as a dependent under my father. I didn't have a passport and was under my mother's passport.

2000- At age 18 years, I Received my own passport. Visa was still under my father's dependent which now came to its end.

2003- Applied for ILR (10 years) under discretionary/compassionate ground for myself.

2004- My solicitors informed HO refused my 2003 application and they will apply for VISA extension. I started my first professional job by then. My work asked me very little as to if I am legal or not.

2007- Granted further Leave to Remain for until end of 2009.

June 2009- I was involved in a car accident and I had received 4 points on my driving license and fee.

2009- Further LVR was granted until Jan 2010.

Jan 2010- Applied for extension on Visa, then varied the application to ILR.

June 2010 - HO informed my solicitor that the correct fee should be paid, as the fee for ILR application is higher.

July 2010 - Application received/processed by HO to start ILR process.

Oct 2010 - ILR was granted.

Jan 2012 - Applied for Naturalization (1st time).

April 2012- HO refused as I had unspent conviction/traffic offence, and they said wait 5 years from June 2009 (in June 2014)

June 2014- Applied for Naturalization (2nd time).

April 2015- HO refused as they claim I was stayed 'illegally' from Jan 2010 to July 2010 when I applied for naturalisation. But the fact is applied for Visa extension on Jan 2010, and then application was changed during HO deccession. Which they accepted. I decided to play their card and would wait until october 2015 to give me clear 5 years stay from day I was granted ILR.

Oct 2015- Applied for Naturalization (3rd time).

Feb 2016 - HO is asking about the no valid leave to remain from 2000 to 2004.

[User1982]

Since yesterday, I have spoken with my solicitor and he also agrees that they should not go as far 2000 to decide for a good character. He also agrees that Scottish law to grant tuition fee is different from England and I may have been eligible back then (or fee paying body decided to give me as they had the fund to do so). But it is what it is and I should present all my things as best as possible.

My question about the tuition fee to you here, is just a fraction of the things UKVI have asked for. Depending on their decision, me and the solicitor will take action if needed (hopefully it will not be a JR).

[cs95tdg]

Him thanks again guys. I have made a timeline for my past.

1992- I was a child and entered UK as a dependent under my father. I didn't have a passport and was under my mother's passport.

2000- At age 18 years, I Received my own passport. Visa was still under my father's dependent which now came to its end. Do you know when that leave (as your fathers dependent) came to an end? And is this reflected in your own passport?

2003- Applied for ILR (10 years) under discretionary/compassionate ground for myself.

2004- My solicitors informed HO refused my 2003 application and they will apply for VISA extension. I started my first professional job by then. My work asked me very little as to if I am legal or not.

2007- Granted further Leave to Remain for until end of 2009.

June 2009- I was involved in a car accident and I had received 4 points on my driving license and fee.

2009- Further LVR was granted until Jan 2010.

Jan 2010- Applied for extension on Visa, then varied the application to ILR.

June 2010 - HO informed my solicitor that the correct fee should be paid, as the fee for ILR application is higher.

July 2010 - Application received/processed by HO to start ILR process. Do you know which route this application was made under?

Oct 2010 - ILR was granted.

Jan 2012 - Applied for Naturalization (1st time).

April 2012- HO refused as I had unspent conviction/traffic offence, and they said wait 5 years from June 2009 (in June 2014)

June 2014- Applied for Naturalization (2nd time).

April 2015- HO refused as they claim I was stayed 'illegally' from Jan 2010 to July 2010 when I applied for naturalisation. But the fact is applied for Visa extension on Jan 2010, and then application was changed during HO deccession. Which they accepted. I decided to play their card and would wait until october 2015 to give me clear 5 years stay from day I was granted ILR.

Oct 2015- Applied for Naturalization (3rd time).

Feb 2016 - HO is asking about the no valid leave to remain from 2000 to 2004.

Reading your immigration history, what is apparent is that it's not straightforward. As you have already mentioned there is more info that the HO have requested and I'm sure there is more information you & your solicitor have regarding the reasons for various applications being refused in the past & steps that were taken.

One point to bear in mind is that the 10 year period that the HO would scrutinise for the good character requirement would begin 10 years before your latest AN application. So if that was in October 2015, the period would span back to October 2005. Looking at your history up until 2007, it appears to indicate that you may not have had valid leave to remain during a time period until 2007 when you were granted an extension of leave. I say 'a time period' because it's not possible to say how long the overstay would have been, with the summary you have shared above. As the year 2005 falls within that time period, I'd understand why the HO are scrutinising whether you had valid leave then, and if not how you supported yourself during that time.

They appear to be scrutinising everything from the date you obtained your own passport, which from what you've said was in 2000 to establish a complete picture of your immigration history.

[User1982]

Him thanks again guys. I have made a timeline for my past.

July 2010 - Application received/processed by HO to start ILR process. Do you know which route this application was made under?

It was applied on the 14 years long residence route.

One point to bear in mind is that the 10 year period that the HO would scrutinise for the good character requirement would begin 10 years before your latest AN application. So if that was in October 2015, the period would span back to October 2005. Looking at your history up until 2007, it appears to indicate that you may not have had valid leave to remain during a time period until 2007 when you were granted an extension of leave. I say 'a time period' because it's not possible to say how long the overstay would have been, with the summary you have shared above. As the year 2005 falls within that time period, I'd understand why the HO are scrutinising whether you had valid leave then, and if not how you supported yourself during that time.

They appear to be scrutinising everything from the date you obtained your own passport, which from what you've said was in 2000 to establish a complete picture of your immigration history.

Thanks you for the information, it appears that way. The only time I was taking a chance on applying for citizenship was in 2012, although I did have motoring conviction, the HO taken this into account for ILR in 2010 and I thought they might overlook this again if they wanted, it was chance that I took.

June 2014 Application was based on the previous HO information (from April 2012 rejection letter).

Oct 2015 Application was based on the previous information (from April 2015 rejection letter).

Previously I have filled out subject access request for every time I was rejected to see what they have on me, usually I would get info recent decision and CID screenshots and a lot of info was blacked out. So its difficult to say what they are picking up on. In the case if they are going back on 2005, then it would mean they are considering the 2004 application which maybe was not processed until 2005.

And thanks again guys.