EEA4 Rejected

[Iira]

I have been asked to send proof of "comprehensive sickness insurance" because I am EU sponsor and self-sufficient. My husband, the visa applicant is the one working and I am a stay-at-home mum although looking for a job at the moment.

I managed to talk to HO and confirmed that what they want is a Private Health insurance that covers both of us. It needs to include emergencies.
I have tried several insurance companies but no luck about emergencies. I cannot find any.

Has anybody successfully applied for EEA form and had the insurance accepted?
Any thoughts about which company to try? I don't want to get the application rejected again...
Already tried BUPA, AXA PPP, and some other ones.

[86ti]

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=304597

But your problem will probably be that you are applying for PR and would therefore need to show insurance for the time you were not working.

[Iira]

I do understand but, my husband is working and paying 25% of tax which, part of it goes to NHS. It's hard to believe that we need to be in the same position as a student with no income.
And actually, I'm not working because I'm looking after 2 young children.

Anyway, I called the private insurance suggested. It's quite cheap but, their cancellation policy is very bad. You need to pay back 15% of annual feel if you cancel before the year. As I'll be back to work soon and probably not using the insurance for 1 year, it's not good for me.

By the way, for others in the same situation, I've been told that there is no insurance that covers emergencies. Therefore, HO is asking for something that does not exist.

[86ti]

I understand you very well. But EU law explicitly allows member states to require comprehensive sickness insurance for self-sufficient persons (and also students). In some countries this wouldn't matter because the spouse can easily be included in the insurance of the partner or is automatically. But obviously that is not how it works in the UK and the HO takes the Directive very literally in this point.

By the way, for others in the same situation, I've been told that there is no insurance that covers emergencies. Therefore, HO is asking for something that does not exist.

Heard that too, many times. According to the NHS everyone who is 'ordinarily' resident in the UK is covered by them. Therefore, there is not real need for a CSI but only for top-ups. But in principle you could also get this insurance from outside the UK provided that they will cover while abroad. Such insurances too indeed exist but I do not know how 'comprehensive they really are.

[Iira]

Thank you for your reply and ideas.

I did actually considered the option of getting the insurance abroad but, once you are a resident (meaning you have an address, in full-time work, etc.) they don't cover anymore. Therefore, it contradicts the visa itself! Basically, we are settled here so it would be illegal to get that kind of insurance.

I'll try to get some kind of private health insurance that could be accepted by HO. If only they'd tell me what they want...Rules are not written anywhere and there are so many types of policies that it's hard to tell...
If anybody has been successful applying with any other insurance I'd appreciate the information.

Thanks.

[86ti]

I did actually considered the option of getting the insurance abroad but, once you are a resident (meaning you have an address, in full-time work, etc.) they don't cover anymore. Therefore, it contradicts the visa itself! Basically, we are settled here so it would be illegal to get that kind of insurance.

I was thinking here about private insurance companies and that would certainly be possible if their policies could be considered as 'comprehensive'.

[Iira]

Apparently, "comprehensive" stands for an insurance that covers inpatient and outpatient treatment without any limits (explained to me by one of the insurance brokers).

generalandmedical.com does not seem to be comprehensive type on their cheapest option. However, if somebody has successfully received the PR with that insurance, it means it doesn't matter which type you take. As long as it covers inpatient and outpatient treatment should be fine.

Just be careful with cancellation policy if you are planning to get it only for a short time (until the self-sufficient period is over, for example).

Just hoping the information could be useful to other people as well...

I'm still in the search.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I understand you very well. But EU law explicitly allows member states to require comprehensive sickness insurance for self-sufficient persons (and also students). In some countries this wouldn't matter because the spouse can easily be included in the insurance of the partner or is automatically. But obviously that is not how it works in the UK and the HO takes the Directive very literally in this point.

This is a very interesting question.

In the UK everyone is covered by the NHS. I am not clear why NHS coverage does not count as "comprehensive insurance", and why UKBA can require anything more than that.

In Germany there are more options and not everyone is automatically covered. Everyone is required to be insured through either private insurers or through semi-public insurers.

[86ti]

I understand you very well. But EU law explicitly allows member states to require comprehensive sickness insurance for self-sufficient persons (and also students). In some countries this wouldn't matter because the spouse can easily be included in the insurance of the partner or is automatically. But obviously that is not how it works in the UK and the HO takes the Directive very literally in this point.

This is a very interesting question.

In the UK everyone is covered by the NHS. I am not clear why NHS coverage does not count as "comprehensive insurance", and why UKBA can require anything more than that.

I think the question is not whether the NHS system would be a "comprehensive insurance" or not. (You could possibly approach that from another angle: if it is good enough for a British national you can't just ask other EEA nationals to have a "better" cover, can you?)

Our member vinny once posted a link to an AIT(?) case. I believe the gist of the verdict was that the financing of NHS is very complicated through taxes and NI contributions. A self-sufficient person would obviously not contribute to the system. Fair, in principle, but leaves a few questions open. Would a British self-sufficient person (if such a person does really exist) not be covered? Why is it that an EEA national worker (the sole worker in the family) can cover his whole family while in the opposite situation (only the non-EEA is working) noone is covered? And finally, as you pointed out, it is in stark contrast to what NHS seems to propagate through their web pages: every "ordinary" resident is covered.

In Germany there are more options and not everyone is automatically covered. Everyone is required to be insured through either private insurers or through semi-public insurers.

In Austria, I think, everyone in a common house-hold can be insured through the family bread-maker. But the crucial point is that in those two countries (at least) is that you can get the very same insurance as the worker and no ambiguities should arise. In the UK you can't do that but obviously all residents should be covered anyway...

[Obie]

I don't think the NHS could be considered as Comprehensive Health Insurance. It is a tax payer funded health system, and if someone who doesn't pay NI contribution relies on it, it could be considered as resorting to public fund.

Even though you are not asked for it par se, if non-entitled EEA national provide their insurance details, it could be reclaimed by the NHS.

The gray area in this topic is this, if a non-EEA family member of an EEA national works and the EEA national is self -sufficient, then surely the EEA national should be exempted from the health insurance requirements, in my view, as a family member of their's pays NI contribution. Such family members should not be expected to pay for health services.

The HO takes a different view. They say, the non-EEA family members derived their rights from the EEA family member, and hence cannot be exempted because the non-EEA family member pay NI contribution.

I have a funny feeling, they would quite comfortably win this one if it went to court.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I don't think the NHS could be considered as Comprehensive Health Insurance. It is a tax payer funded health system, and if someone who doesn't pay NI contribution relies on it, it could be considered as resorting to public fund.

Not true. Many people who do not work and do not pay NI are covered.

Even though you are not asked for it par se, if non-entitled EEA national provide their insurance details, it could be reclaimed by the NHS.

I suspect this is wrong. I think they can and should register with a local GP. Once they are resident in the country, even if self-sufficient, they are allowed to use the public libraries, the school system, the public toilets (not that those exist in any numbers) and the public health care system, the same as any UK citizen.

[biicha]

My husband got his EEA2 application back today because we didn't have evidence of sickness insurance. I am EU citizen and a student and my husband just found a work ( after we sent the application for the first time). I haven't applied for Residence Certificate and we both have European Health Insurance Cards which covers my studying time (because we were living together in my country before we came to the UK). I called today to the Border Agency two times and I got different answers. First time they said that I need to have a private insurance. Second time they said that I should just send the European Health Insurance Cards.

I read from the UK Border Agency web site what is Coprehensive Sickness Insurance: "Insurance that will pay for any medical treatment required in the United Kingdom by someone who is not entitled to treatment from the National Health Service. You may have to show you have this insurance in order to be allowed to live in the United Kingdom."

But we both are entitled to treatment from NHS. What we should do? We don't have time that they reject the application again.

Thank you for helpping me!

[Iira]

But we both are entitled to treatment from NHS. What we should do? We don't have time that they reject the application again.

Thank you for helpping me!

I am also entitled to treatment in the NHS but, it doesn't matter. If EU sponsor is a student or self-sufficient, regardless of having your husband's income, you need to get the private insurance. I have confirmed the information via e-mail and on the phone (I talked to an agent who didn't know anything about it but, checked with the supervisor).
If you don't want to fail again, you'd rather get it. There are some cheap options but, be aware that they are asking for "comprehensive" type. Something that covers both, in- and out-patient.
Also, I just read their website last night, they have changed the system now. If there is something missing in the application they will return it to you immediately (without starting the case).

I hope the information can help. Let me know if you have any other question.

[Obie]

[quote="Appeal Caselaw under Directive 2004/38EC"]

3.4 Sickness Insurance
Persons must not become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State. In paragraph 93 of Baumbast, the ECJ found that it was disproportionate for a lack of sickness insurance that covered emergency medical treatment within the UK to be a reason for refusing to grant a right of residence on this basis. Furthermore, the law in regard to the NHS prevents us from restricting people from obtaining medical treatment after they have been here for more than 12 months.
Presenting Officers should seek to argue that an EEA national who holds no form of medical insurance is not appropriately covered. Where evidence of medical insurance is produced, it must clearly demonstrate that the EEA national and their families are covered in respect of all pre-existing medical conditions that require medication and/or treatment as well as any treatment that may be required for serious or long-term medical conditions. Any arguments should focus on whether or not the EEA national or their families could be considered an “unreasonable burdenâ€

[biicha]

Thank you for the answer. I called third time to the border agency and they asked if the Health Insurance Card covers UK and I said yes, because it's European and they said it should be fine. It sounds so stupid that we need to pay extra money for something that we don't need, because we can use same services than British.

[Iira]

Thank you for the answer. I called third time to the border agency and they asked if the Health Insurance Card covers UK and I said yes, because it's European and they said it should be fine. It sounds so stupid that we need to pay extra money for something that we don't need, because we can use same services than British.

If you want to have a written answer before you give it a try, e-mail ukbaeuropeanenquiries@UKBA.gsi.gov.uk and subject EEA2 rejected. I did that and the reply came in 1 day. Once you get your reply you can attach that to your application. I'm not too sure of what you "health insurance card" means but, you can explain that to them. We also have a card that covers us in Europe (a form that we get in the post office here and entitles UK residents to get some European health cover) but, that it's not a private insurance.

[Iira]

Once again, i will like to reiterate that the UK border agency is wrong to refuse residency to family member of EEA national on the basis that the EEA national don't hold a comprehensive sickness insurance, as reiterated in Baumbast, especially in cases where the non-EEA national is in employment and paying NI contribution.

I agree is wrong and I guess it might be a way of appealing. However, I don't have any experience doing so and I cannot afford a lawyer to do it for me.
My husband could loose his job if we don't get the visa so we are quite desperate to get it right.

[86ti]

However i have to stress the fact that NHS is not an insurance or comprehensive sickness insurance.

Why not? What is a comprehensive sickness insurance in your opinion?

[biicha]

Our problem is that the current visa is going to expiry soon and we don't know what problems we can get if we apply after the visa has expiried...

[biicha]

Can I ask from where did you take your insurance?

[86ti]

Our problem is that the current visa is going to expiry soon and we don't know what problems we can get if we apply after the visa has expiried...

There are no visas on the EEA route... What you probably mean is the EEA family permit. But your right to stay in the UK does not derive from a piece of paper. In fact, you are not even required to apply for the residence card or the residence certificate. It is your right as a Union citizen provided that you indeed exercise treaty rights in some way. And even if you wouldn't member states wouldn't be allowed to just remove you as long as you do not become an unreasonable burden on the state. You appear to fulfill all conditions so relax!

[biicha]

Yes, I'm sorry, I do mean EEA family permit. My husband is not EU citizen and as far as I know he needs the Residence Card to stay here with me. I think I need to get the insurance for us that we will not get any bad surprises... Does anyone have any experience from where to get a cheap insurance ( and the kind of that border agency will accept it...) ?

[Iira]

Can I ask from where did you take your insurance?

I haven't taken it yet. I'm still on the search...there are too many types and I'm not familiar with the options.

Somebody said in a different discussion that they've got their visa after getting insurance from generalandmedical.com. Although it's not comprehensive type they were successful. Therefore, you never know...you could still be lucky with the one you already have.

[86ti]

Yes, I'm sorry, I do mean EEA family permit. My husband is not EU citizen and as far as I know he needs the Residence Card to stay here with me.

This UKBA page clearly says 'can' and not 'must'. It also mentions 'confirmation of rights'. Still doubts?

[biicha]

That's interesting, but as he is working and without any permission to stay in the country, his situation would be quite unclear, I think... because he is not, as I mentioned earlier, EU citizen. I think we would get even more troubles if he doesn't have any kind of sticker in his passport.