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Post by ppron747 » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:26 pm

tt wrote:Interesting. I am listening to what you're saying, and willing to go along with you if I am convinced.
People connected with the Crown Dependencies are *full* British citizens. The EU free movement of labour rights issue only affects the way other governments treat them, not the United Kingdom government.
If they ARE full British citizens, why can't they get normal British passports, like all other full British citizens and British Overseas Territories citizens?(unless they satisfy the ancestry or 5 yr tests, see above).
Agreed, because of the EU agreements at the time, the qualification of "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment" might have to still go in their normal UK passports.

No, the reason the passports are different, amongst other things surely is that, without drawing too much on any similarities with the BOTC passport, it is a sign of a kind of Belonger Status to the territories of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. And a way for the British government to distinguish them, and this is done entirely under the auspices of "UK law", and not EU law ie, affecting the way the UK Govt treats them.

Why do it otherwise?
Eloquent but wrong.

The type of passport that is issued to BCs from the Islands depends entirely on where they are when they apply. If they apply to the UKPS while they are in mainland UK, they receive completely standard UK passports of the type issued to every other BC in the UK. The only difference is the endorsement, printed at the same time as the data page, to the effect that they are not entitled to benefit from EU provisions on settlement and establishment. The same applies if they are abroad, and apply to a British Consular post for a passport.

The reason that BCs from the Overseas Territories get standard UK passports is that virtually all of their BC passports are issued by either the UKPS or by a British consular post in a neighbouring country. Apart from Falklands (where the islanders have been British citizens since 1983) and Gibraltar (which is part of the EU) the OT governments issue only non-standard passports with "British Passport" across the top of the cover and the name of the territory across the bottom - no EU language translations inside, and no reference to the EU on the cover. Nearly 100% of the passports issued by the Caribbean OTs refer only to the holder's status as a BOTC. I gather that the logic is that, while (say) Bermudian BCs are EU nationals - because BCs are EU nationals - Bermuda as a territory has no connection with the EU, and it would not therefore be appropriate for them to issue passports in the EU common format, with EU on the cover as well as the name of the territory.

Incidentally, you're wrong to say that BDTCs could be naturalised as British citizens. They could not. Their route to British citizenship before the BOTA was through registration which (unlike naturalisation) was an entitlement, following five years residence in UK. (Apart from Falklands, which was catered for by the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, and Gibraltarians, who did not have to reside in UK in order to qualify for registration).
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by Dawie » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:38 pm

Bermuda as a territory has no connection with the EU, and it would not therefore be appropriate for them to issue passports in the EU common format, with EU on the cover as well as the name of the territory.
Although slightly off topic, this is in contrast to the position adopted by the French where citizens of French overseas territories (known as overseas departments) are full French citizens enjoying the same entitlements to EU movement and settlement rights as any other French citizen. In addition, French overseas departments are territorially part of the EU. For example, Reunion Island in the middle of the Indian Ocean is a little piece of France. It uses the Euro, all its citizens are French and they can come and go as they please from France or the entire EU.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by ppron747 » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:45 pm

Absolutely, Dawie - what's that phrase about having their cake, and eating it, too? Could it possibly apply to the Caribbean OTs? :)
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Post by Dawie » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:01 pm

Yeah, well I think the British position is a little muddled. I can't think of any other country that has different classes of citizenship like the UK (or Crown). For most other countries it's quite clear - you're either a citizen or you're not. But having different classes of citizenship with different entitlements and privileges based on where you were born and when seems quite ridiculous and unfair.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by tt » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:21 pm

Dawie makes a very fair (and fine) point here.

PPron747. It's a good point you make about the passports. I was wondering whether a Channel Islands/Isle of Man resident could actually get a "normal" UK passport, and you are indicating that they can. Of course, with that endorsement, if required.

So, in actual fact, there is ABSOLUTELY NO difference between the British Islands (Jersey) passport, and the standard UK passport either for the UK itself, or the rest of the world? Thanks for that information.

But BOTCs (OK, BDPTs etc, as they were known) COULD be British citizens after 5 years residence.

These other points don't go to the guts of the enquiry, nor the issues I've tried to outline above, which is what we're concerned about.

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Post by tt » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:03 pm

ppron747. One thing I don't understand.

If there is no difference between a standard UK Passport and a British Islands (Jersey) Passport, can you let us all into the little secret as to why they bother having a British Islands (Jersey) Passport at all?

I'm sure it must have something to do with giving advantages to Jersey residents, as would be the British thing to do, but with this "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment" proviso having to be inserted into the Jersey resident's passport (of whatever character), it just doesn't look like it on the surface. I'm sure you have the answer!

Many thanks!

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Post by ppron747 » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:46 pm

tt wrote:ppron747. One thing I don't understand.

If there is no difference between a standard UK Passport and a British Islands (Jersey) Passport, can you let us all into the little secret as to why they bother having a British Islands (Jersey) Passport at all?

I'm sure it must have something to do with giving advantages to Jersey residents, as would be the British thing to do, but with this "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment" proviso having to be inserted into the Jersey resident's passport (of whatever character), it just doesn't look like it on the surface. I'm sure you have the answer!

Many thanks!
I've got an answer, but I don't know whether it is the answer!

The Crown Dependencies are effectively self-governing (as are the Overseas Territories, to a great degree) and prefer to issue their own distinctive document, because they can... I think it simply serves to emphasise their "special-ness". I'm absolutely certain that ego has nothing whatsoever to do with it... :)
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by JAJ » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:05 am

ppron747 wrote:[

The type of passport that is issued to BCs from the Islands depends entirely on where they are when they apply. If they apply to the UKPS while they are in mainland UK, they receive completely standard UK passports of the type issued to every other BC in the UK.
And does the same in reverse apply - if a British citizen from the mainland UK is living in Jersey, and renews his British passport in Jersey, does he get a British Islands (Jersey) passport?

Even if he doesn't have "Jersey status" under the Jersey housing laws?

I gather that the logic is that, while (say) Bermudian BCs are EU nationals - because BCs are EU nationals - Bermuda as a territory has no connection with the EU, and it would not therefore be appropriate for them to issue passports in the EU common format, with EU on the cover as well as the name of the territory.
And a point specific to Bermuda is that the Bermuda BOTC passport gives Bermudians easier access to the United States compared to a standard British citizen passport.

The reason for this is that Bermudians are treated pretty much the same as Canadians by the U.S. which means, for example, they can stay for 6 months in the U.S. and don't need to fill out the green visa waiver forms on arrival. They're not eligible for the NAFTA visa, however.

Incidentally, you're wrong to say that BDTCs could be naturalised as British citizens. They could not. Their route to British citizenship before the BOTA was through registration which (unlike naturalisation) was an entitlement, following five years residence in UK..
Correct me if I'm wrong but BDTC/BOTC always had the *option* of applying for naturalisation instead of registration if they wished. There might be an advantage in doing so if married to a British citizen (shorter residence requirement).

Same goes for BOCs etc.

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Post by JAJ » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:17 am

Dawie wrote:Yeah, well I think the British position is a little muddled. I can't think of any other country that has different classes of citizenship like the UK (or Crown). For most other countries it's quite clear - you're either a citizen or you're not. But having different classes of citizenship with different entitlements and privileges based on where you were born and when seems quite ridiculous and unfair.
The United States is another case - people from American Samoa are U.S. nationals but not U.S. citizens.

Before the Territory of Papua became independent (from Australia, in 1975), Australian citizens of indigenous descent from Papua did not have automatic permission to live in mainland Australia.

But the UK is not as difficult as it was a few years ago. The Overseas Territories (except the SBAs) can now have British citizenship, and regarding British Overseas citizens and the other classes of British nationality, those who are *solely* British are now allowed to become British citizens as well.

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Post by JAJ » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:20 am

Dawie wrote:Although slightly off topic, this is in contrast to the position adopted by the French where citizens of French overseas territories (known as overseas departments) are full French citizens enjoying the same entitlements to EU movement and settlement rights as any other French citizen. In addition, French overseas departments are territorially part of the EU. For example, Reunion Island in the middle of the Indian Ocean is a little piece of France. It uses the Euro, all its citizens are French and they can come and go as they please from France or the entire EU.
On the other hand, the British Overseas Territories have much more autonomy than the French territories.

If any of the other Overseas Territories had wanted to become part of the EU (like Gibraltar) then provision may well have been made for them.

Incidentally, there is a certain distinction between the French "overseas departments" which are fully part of France and the "overseas territories". And some of the latter (eg French Polynesia) use the CFP Franc rather than the Euro.

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Post by JAJ » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:26 am

tt wrote:
There is an anomaly here in that British citizens connected with British Overseas Territories have got EU free movement of labour rights, and those from the Crown Dependencies have not. However the relevant clauses in the EU Treaties were inserted at the request of the Crown Dependencies authorities, they may be removed in a future treaties revision but that's the situation for now.
What's your opinion on this, if I may ask?
Nothing - other than to observe it's probably just a consequence of the 30 year gap between the Treaty of Accession and the British Overseas Territories Act.

At the time the political and constitutional status of the Overseas Territories was very different compared to now.

If the UK was negotiating accession to the EU now then the "Jersey clause" might have been applied to British citizens solely connected with any Overseas Territory (other than Gibraltar).

As far as I know, Danish citizens connected exclusively with the Faeroe Islands are also excluded from the free movement of labour provisions, for much the same reason. And a further anomaly exists in that Danes from Greenland are not so excluded.

Despite the fact that Greenland joined the EEC as an integral part of Denmark in 1973 (the Faeroes had autonomy and chose to remain outside), before leaving the EEC in 1985, having obtained autonomous status in the meantime.

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Post by tt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:33 am

Thanks for that input. To summarise, especially for those who don't have time to peruse everything here, is, according to at least one member (JAJ):-

Gibraltar

It's outside the UK regime, so if you go there, you need separate Work Permit, and any time spent there will NOT count towards your residency time in the UK, thus depleting any UK ILR hopes.

Jersey (Guernsey, Isle of Man, any of the Crown Dependencies)

1. a UK Permanent Resident (ILR) holder:-
a. doesn't need any work or residence permit to operate/live in Jersey long-term.
b. can continue their residence time accumulation while there (so 4 years UK mainland leading to ILR, subsequently 1 year Jersey = eligibility for British Citizenship not just for a Jersey passport, but a normal UK one).

2. a work permit (and so on) holder building up residence time for ILR:-
a. doesn't need any work or residence permit to operate/live in Jersey long-term.
b. can continue their residence time accumulation while there (so 2 years UK mainland, 2 years Jersey = eligibility for ILR in the UK mainland/Jersey (or both)).

This is because the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are caught up in the definition of UK in the Nationality Act, and presumbly other legislation.

And member Dawie agrees with the above, but other members, lemess and bbdivo disagree - lemess's ILR approval letter specifically mentioned that the ILR was for the UK and that special approval may be required to live in the Channel Islands etc. which are not part of the UK).

Can anyone put a definitive answer to all of this?

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Post by lemess » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:52 am

To be specific, my ILR letter had the following wording


If you are thinking of going to live or work on the Isle of Man or one of the Channel Islands, you should first consult the Immigration authorities of the Island concerned.



This makes it pretty clear to me that there is no automatic right to just go and live in Jersey without seeking immigration approval of some sort. Also I don't believe my ILR letter is non-standard in any way.

basis

Post by basis » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:58 am

lemess wrote:To be specific, my ILR letter had the following wording


If you are thinking of going to live or work on the Isle of Man or one of the Channel Islands, you should first consult the Immigration authorities of the Island concerned.



This makes it pretty clear to me that there is no automatic right to just go and live on Jersey without seeking approval of some sort. Also I don't believe my ILR letter is non-standard in any way.
Lemess - I agree with you. My ILR letter and everyine I know their ILR letter says the same.

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Post by ppron747 » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:23 am

Maybe I'm missing something, but surely the whole point of the Islands' not getting EU rights of settlement and establishment was that they want to be able to impose their own restrictions on who can settle/establish themselves on the Islands.?

I can remember seeing press reports, years ago, that that wooden man who played "Bergerac" in the TV series (which probably did more for Jersey's tourist trade than anything else, ever) couldn't get permission to live on Jersey, until they made a special rule just for him.

Just because the Islands are part of the UK nationality purposes doesn't mean that they haven't got an extra layer of control to repel long-term boarders, by making it next to impossible to get accommodation without some sort of permit.

So, having done next to no research on the subject, I agree with lemess and Basis that it can't be as simple as tt proposes...
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by Dawie » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:46 am

If you are thinking of going to live or work on the Isle of Man or one of the Channel Islands, you should first consult the Immigration authorities of the Island concerned.
Yes, I agree, my letter also said the exact same thing, however I still maintain my position that this url makes it quite clear that UK ILR holders (and holders of UK ancestry and working holiday visas) can (currently, it may change in the future) work in Jersey:

http://www.gov.je/HomeAffairs/CusAndImm ... permit.htm
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by lemess » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:56 am

Dawie,
I would have to dispute your assertion again. That URL makes no mention of Uk ILR holders.
What you say may very well be true but given the explicit nature of the wording on the ILR letter as well as lack of clarity about whether the web page refers to long term jersey or UK residents, I assume a Uk ILR holder does have to seek additional approval to live and work in jersey.

It may well be that they don't need a 'work permit' as the form of approval but the implication does seem to be that some approval is necessary from the immigration authorities before moving to reside in Jersey with a UK ILR.

Obviously as they are no immigration checks on travel from the UK you won't need a visa to travel on business etc.

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Post by ppron747 » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:33 am

Ernst and Young don't, of course, have the force of law, but their website has an interesting downloadabe guide for prospective Jersey residents here, from which the following is an extract:
Entry Visas & Work Permits

Foreign nationals wishing to work in Jersey must obtain work permits through their intended employers. The Immigration and Nationality Department issues permits to employers who demonstrate that they are unable to fill a vacancy locally, or to foreign persons who are free of permit restrictions. A visa or entry certificate is also required and is available from the British High Commission, Embassy or Consulate where the person lives.
Work permits may also be issued to people with specialist skills if their appointment is of particular benefit to the Island or to foreign nationals who are free of work permit restrictions in the United Kingdom.
In addition, under the Regulation of Undertakings and Development (Jersey) Law 1973 (as amended), an employer must apply for a license to engage any person who has not worked in Jersey for at least five years to fill a vacancy with an existing undertaking.
British subjects and nationals of the member states of the European Economic Area (EEA), which includes the EU do not require work permits (although employers on the Island are required to obtain licenses to employ them) and, in the majority of cases, may enter and exit the country freely.
Self employed individuals are subject to the same visa, work permit and residential permit guidelines outlined above. Additional restraints may also apply.

Living in Jersey Housing
In view of the serious shortage of dwelling space on the Island it has been found necessary to restrict the acquisition of dwelling accommodation whether by purchase or by lease. Under the provisions of the Housing (Jersey) Law, 1949, as amended, the States of Jersey Housing Committee strictly controls all sales and leases of private dwelling accommodation. In almost all circumstances newcomers to the Island will not receive consent to purchase or lease dwelling accommodation without having received prior approval from the Housing Committee as an ‘essential employee’, or on the grounds of being of significant economic or social benefit to the Island community (Regulation 1(1)k).
‘Essentially employed’ personnel are generally required to occupy accommodation either owned or leased by their employer, and the Committee will restrict the granting of such consent to accommodation that is not subject to a condition limiting occupancy to local people. At the end of ten years residence an ‘essential employee’ is permitted to acquire or lease accommodation in his or her own right. However, it is now very rare for ‘essential employee’ status to be granted for a period in excess of five years.
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by ppron747 » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:46 am

JAJ wrote:
ppron747 wrote:The type of passport that is issued to BCs from the Islands depends entirely on where they are when they apply. If they apply to the UKPS while they are in mainland UK, they receive completely standard UK passports of the type issued to every other BC in the UK.
JAJ wrote:And does the same in reverse apply - if a British citizen from the mainland UK is living in Jersey, and renews his British passport in Jersey, does he get a British Islands (Jersey) passport?
Even if he doesn't have "Jersey status" under the Jersey housing laws?
I don't know for certain - the Jersey Passport Office website doesn't seem to differentiate between local residents and others - and even suggests that any British national can apply direct to UKPS if they wish. In the absence of any indication to the contrary, I presume it is possible for a non-resident BC to get a Jersey passport, if they're there when they need a new one.
JAJ wrote:
ppron747 wrote: I gather that the logic is that, while (say) Bermudian BCs are EU nationals - because BCs are EU nationals - Bermuda as a territory has no connection with the EU, and it would not therefore be appropriate for them to issue passports in the EU common format, with EU on the cover as well as the name of the territory.
JAJ wrote:And a point specific to Bermuda is that the Bermuda BOTC passport gives Bermudians easier access to the United States compared to a standard British citizen passport.
The reason for this is that Bermudians are treated pretty much the same as Canadians by the U.S. which means, for example, they can stay for 6 months in the U.S. and don't need to fill out the green visa waiver forms on arrival. They're not eligible for the NAFTA visa, however.
Actually, unless things have changed in the last couple of years, Bermudians don't need passports at all, to visit the USA - they can produce a driving licence, birth certificate, etc. The US has a large facility at Hamilton Airport; people are pre-cleared there, and because of this, flights from Bermuda generally arrive at domestic terminals in the US.
JAJ wrote:
ppron747 wrote:Incidentally, you're wrong to say that BDTCs could be naturalised as British citizens. They could not. Their route to British citizenship before the BOTA was through registration which (unlike naturalisation) was an entitlement, following five years residence in UK..
JAJ wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but BDTC/BOTC always had the *option* of applying for naturalisation instead of registration if they wished. There might be an advantage in doing so if married to a British citizen (shorter residence requirement).
Same goes for BOCs etc.
I forgot spouses! Clearly if someone was eligible for naturalisation following three years UK residence, IND would not make them wait for five years in order to exercise their right to registration.

But I doubt very much if HO would consent to naturalising someone who also had an entitlement to registration at the time that they apply, unless it happened that the naturalisation gave the individual some advantage, which it wouldn't - under the 1981 Act, anyway. If someone were to use the naturalisation form instead of that for registration, I suspect they'd simply find themselves being registered anyway, and the balance of the fee refunded (if there is a difference).
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:45 pm

tt wrote:Thanks for that input. To summarise, especially for those who don't have time to peruse everything here, is, according to at least one member (JAJ):-

Gibraltar

It's outside the UK regime, so if you go there, you need separate Work Permit, and any time spent there will NOT count towards your residency time in the UK, thus depleting any UK ILR hopes.
Correct. However Gibraltar is part of the EU, so if you are naturalised as a British citizen you will have more options to live/work in Gibraltar.

A related point which is of interest to all the Overseas Territories - since 21 May 2002, if you are a British citizen (by descent) a child born in the Overseas Territories will automatically be a British citizen. This was not the case before 21.05.2002 except in the Falkland Islands.

The exception is the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus, however most children born here to British citizens will have a parent in "Crown Service" so it usually won't matter if the parent is British by descent.


Jersey (Guernsey, Isle of Man, any of the Crown Dependencies)

Looking at what we know:

- The Crown Dependencies have standard immigration controls, modelled on the UK; and
- they have *additional* local controls on employment and/or housing which apply to all without local status, including British citizens

Answering certain questions in order (assuming the Crown Dependency is Jersey):

1. Can a work permit holder work in Jersey on a UK work permit?
Answer: Only for short periods, then a Jersey work permit would be needed

2. If you have lived for 4 years partially in the UK and partially in Jersey (eg under a work permit, ancestry visa or EEA citizen/family member), does the time in the UK count for ILR if you apply in Jersey under the 4 year rule, or vice versa?
Answer: Unclear

3. Can a UK ILR or Right of Abode holder live in Jersey?
Answer: Unclear whether the Jersey authorities would accept UK ILR for normal immigration purposes. However the Jersey housing/employment controls would apply.

4. Does time in Jersey count for naturalisation purposes?
Answer: Yes, provided the immigration laws of Jersey are not breached. However:
- it's not clear whether the discretionary aspect of naturalisation is interpreted more strictly in Jersey compared to the UK; and
- if you are naturalised in Jersey, your passport will be endorsed to deny EEA free movement of labour rights until you have lived in the UK proper for 5 years, or unless you have a UK born parent or grandparent. Note that British citizens from the Crown Dependencies with this endorsement may still be able to live in the Republic of Ireland as the immigration laws there pertaining to British citizens predate the EEA arrangements.

5. Will a child born in Jersey to a UK ILR holder be a British citizen?
Answer: Yes, however the child's passport may be endorsed to prevent EEA rights.

6. What about a child born in Jersey to a British citizen by descent?
Answer: The child will be a British citizen on the same basis as it would have been if it had been born in the UK. And usually such a child would have a UK born grandparent so the EEA endorsement would not be applied.

7. Does time in Jersey count for maintaining UK ILR?
Answer: Unclear

8. What do you need to do to get "local status" in Jersey?
"Local status" in Jersey is given under the housing laws, not the immigration and nationality laws. Being a British citizen connected with Jersey for nationality purposes is not enough. There are a variety of ways to get "local status", some of which give that status for life, other ways only while resident in Jersey (ie you can lose status if you emigrate).

For Jersey see: http://www.housing.gov.je

Guernsey has similar laws to Jersey in this respect. The Isle of Man also has some restrictions, however there is less population pressure in the IOM compared to the Channel Islands and rules are not so strict there.

9. Can citizens of EEA countries live and work in Jersey?
Answer: Yes, on the same basis as the UK, but like British citizens, subject to meeting the housing/employment control legislation. And subject to any possible complications above in terms of qualifying for ILR or naturalisation.

10. If you are a British citizen from Jersey and have the endorsement regarding EEA free movement of labour rights in your passport, how can you get it removed?
Answer: Unless you have a United Kingdom born parent or grandparent (the Republic of Ireland on or before 31 March 1922 may count as United Kingdom for this purpose) then the only way is 5 years residence in the United Kingdom proper. Application to remove the endorsement after qualifying residence should be made to the UK Passport Office, not the Home Office.

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Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:59 pm

ppron747 wrote:
ppron747 wrote:Incidentally, you're wrong to say that BDTCs could be naturalised as British citizens. They could not. Their route to British citizenship before the BOTA was through registration which (unlike naturalisation) was an entitlement, following five years residence in UK..
JAJ wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but BDTC/BOTC always had the *option* of applying for naturalisation instead of registration if they wished. There might be an advantage in doing so if married to a British citizen (shorter residence requirement).
Same goes for BOCs etc.
I forgot spouses! Clearly if someone was eligible for naturalisation following three years UK residence, IND would not make them wait for five years in order to exercise their right to registration.

But I doubt very much if HO would consent to naturalising someone who also had an entitlement to registration at the time that they apply, unless it happened that the naturalisation gave the individual some advantage, which it wouldn't - under the 1981 Act, anyway. If someone were to use the naturalisation form instead of that for registration, I suspect they'd simply find themselves being registered anyway, and the balance of the fee refunded (if there is a difference).
One then has to wonder how 85 British Overseas citizens, 100 British subjects and 15 British protected persons managed to get naturalised under s6(1) of the Act in 2004:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb0805.pdf

You are right in that the Home Office usually prefers people to be registered under an entitlement rather than be naturalised (or registered at discretion), unless there is a good reason such as obtaining British citizenship otherwise than by descent.

But these 85+100+15 = 200 persons in 2004 could just as easily have been registered under section 4 of the 1981 Act, which suggests the Home Office are not so strict about this as the policy suggests.

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Post by ppron747 » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:25 pm

Oh, very good :P A symptom, I suspect, of what a couple of other posters here have described as the most efficient and/or best naturalisation service in the world, achieving top marks for both speed and superficiality!

As the Nationality Instructions have it -
"18.5.1.1 We should not grant a certificate of naturalisation to a person who is already a British citizen or who has an entitlement to British citizenship under another provision of the British Nationality Act 1981....
......18.5.3.1 If the applicant is not already a British citizen, an entitlement to be registered as a British citizen may exist....
....under s.4, if a British overseas territories citizen, a British National (Overseas), a British Overseas citizen, a British subject under the Act or a British protected person...
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:35 pm

ppron747 wrote:Oh, very good :P A symptom, I suspect, of what a couple of other posters here have described as the most efficient and/or best naturalisation service in the world, achieving top marks for both speed and superficiality!

As the Nationality Instructions have it -
"18.5.1.1 We should not grant a certificate of naturalisation to a person who is already a British citizen or who has an entitlement to British citizenship under another provision of the British Nationality Act 1981....
......18.5.3.1 If the applicant is not already a British citizen, an entitlement to be registered as a British citizen may exist....
....under s.4, if a British overseas territories citizen, a British National (Overseas), a British Overseas citizen, a British subject under the Act or a British protected person...
Apparently, they will allow someone eligible for registration to naturalise instead, if this gives British citizenship otherwise than by descent, while the registration entitlement does not:

EG concerning s4C registration (born overseas before 1983 to a British mother), the Nationality Instructions:

"7.4.3 Checking for eligibility for naturalisation

7.4.3.1 Applicants who appear to be equally eligible for registration under s.4C and for naturalisation under s.6(1) or s.6(2) should normally have the advantage of naturalisation explained to them, i.e. that naturalisation would give them British citizenship otherwise than by descent, and asked whether they would prefer to have their application dealt with on this basis. If the applicant chooses to have the application dealt with as one for naturalisation but is subsequently found ineligible or unsuitable for naturalisation, we should proceed to consider whether an entitlement under s.4C exists. "

The same should apply if a British Overseas citizen, British subject or BPP is eligible for s4B registration and s6(2) naturalisation at the same time, although the Nationality Instructions don't mention this scenario specifically.

tt
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Post by tt » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:57 pm

In the last few days, various Jersey "blog" sites. along with the Jersey Parlt itself, have been indicating that Jersey will not be going along with the ID system presently proposed by the UK Govt. (I won't list them, but you can easily find them out).

Not just because of grievances of disadvantaged Jersey residents like this http://conductor71.members.beeb.net/cha ... lander.htm, nor because of the of the fact that Jersey (and other Crown Dependency) residents without UK ancestry or 5 years residency in the UK can't work freely in France or anywhere else in the EU (unlike ALL other UK Citizens), but because the UK Govt itself believes it is worth pursuing the distinction between Jersey (or other Crown Dependency - Guernsey, Isle of Man) born UK Citizens and UK proper born Citizens.

So, Jersey will not introduce ID cards. I wonder how this will test the constitutional arrangement between them now?

ppron747
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Post by ppron747 » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:12 am

tt wrote:......So, Jersey will not introduce ID cards. I wonder how this will test the constitutional arrangement between them now?
The ID Cards Bill refers only the "the United Kingdom" - not "the United Kingdom and Islands" so I wouldn't imagine that the constitutional arrangement will be tested much at all....
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

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