legal status

[worried]

Hi
This is a bit difficult for me to explain but we really need some advice on what to do next. I am a British citizen. I met my boyfriend a year ago and he came over to UK from France a year before that. He told me that his origin was Senegal although he was born in France and had French citizenship. We recently got engaged and had hoped to marry next year and he has consequently had to tell me the truth about his status in UK. It transpires that he was born in Senegal and he and his family moved over to France when he was a very young child although he never applied for French citizenship. He came to UK on a false French pasport and has live and worked here in that name ever since. Our intention to marry is genuine but we have discussed that he really has to make his residence in UK legal first. I want to be able to do this by being totally honest if this is possible. We have considered going over to Senegal to marry but we would not be able to use our 12 month relationship as evidence that the relationship is genuine and I don't want to have to invent an iventory of contact between us before that - as has been suggested. I would be so grateful for any suggestions based on actual knowledge of the system.

[John]

"Worried", I think the first point I need to make is .... can your fiancé get a valid Senegalese passport? That is, is he able to prove to the Senegal Embassy in London that he has their citizenship? If not I think it is going to be difficult to resolve all this easily. Even if he did use his false French passport to get to Senegal, could he get a real Senegalese passport there?

Assuming the passport is no problem, options include your fiancé getting a fiancé visa and then returning to the UK and the two of you getting married in the UK, then converting that fiancé visa into a spouse visa in the UK. Alternatively if the two of you get married in say Senegal he could then apply for a spouse visa there and then move back to the UK.

You say :-

we would not be able to use our 12 month relationship as evidence that the relationship is genuine

Why not? Are you thinking that the time in England would not be mentioned on the VAF2 application form? If so I think I have to say that the form needs to be completed truthfully, if only because the discovery of any lie will lead to the application being rejected, or even a visa already issued being cancelled. The comment always must be ... tell the truth!

If I have totally misunderstood your comment then apologies for that.

Here is the website of the Visa Section at the British Embassy in Dakar. I cannot spot any guidance on that website about the current delays for settlement visa interviews. Maybe your fiancé or you could phone and ask them. The delay varies considerably around the world, from hours to months. It might make a difference as to how to proceed.

But the first point must be to resolve the Senegalese passport issue. Can you post about that aspect?

[worried]

Thank you John. The issue with his passport I hope is a simple one. He doesn't have a current Senegalese passport but he does have his birth certificate. His mother recently moved back to Senegal from France on the death of her husband and we were hoping that she could sort out a passport from there. Would this be possible do you think?

You did not misunderstand my comments but I wasn't implying that I wanted to lie on the form quite the opposite in fact I want to be completely honest about the situation so that we can relax into our life together. But my worry is that if we say he has been in the UK illegally for two years this will go against our application. Is this not the case? Can we say “yes we have had a genuine relationship for a year after he came to the UK on a false passport and here is the proof”?

[John]

As regards the matter of the Senegalese passport you ask :-

Would this be possible do you think?

-: to which I reply that I have no knowledge of that government's policy. However if he has his birth certificate available to him in the UK then that will clearly help. Has your fiancé made contact with his Government's Embassy in London? If not, I think he should. He really should not try to use a false French passport to get to Senegal if he can get a real Senegalese passport issued in London.

As regards the other point you ask, you are obviously not the first person to worry "Will he be allowed back into the country in view of immigration history?". Everyone's circumstances are clearly at least a little bit different. However have a good read through this topic. That should give you hope!

If you have not already done so download a form VAF2. Such a form will be used to apply in Dakar for either fiancé visa or a spouse visa. You can download the form by clicking here. Also have a good read of Guidance - Husbands, wives and partners (INF 4). And don't skimp on the evidence in support of the application .. financial, accommodation and "evidence of contact".

Go for it! Hope it all works out.

[worried]

Thanks again John. I’m sorry if I appear to be missing something here but if we go to the Senegalese Embassy in London and apply for his passport will they not want to see a valid visa for being in this country?

If they don’t is this really just a case of him getting his legal passport from the Embassy, travelling back to Senegal and applying for a fiancé visa without consequence of him being here illegally currently?

I have already read the story you suggested and am very happy that this similar situation turned out happily resolved for this couple. But is there also a possibility of him never being able to return because of his current status? and if so how likely is compared to it not happening?

I'm sorry you are being very helpful but I have to be very clear about what I am going to be doing.

[John]

... if we go to the Senegalese Embassy in London and apply for his passport will they not want to see a valid visa for being in this country?

I think all you can do is ask them!

As regards applying for a fiancé visa in Dakar, do appreciate that the holder of a fiancé visa is not allowed to work in the UK. Is your own income sufficient to support the two of you, until after the UK marriage, and then after the issue of spouse visa in the UK?

Note that converting a fiancé visa into a spouse visa in the UK will cost you £335 by post, or £500 in person.

Compare that with ... the two of you get married in Senegal ... he then applies for a spouse visa in Dakar ... he is able to work as soon as he gets back to the UK. So his earnings can be taken into account to prove the financial tests met (And no need to pay to convert a fiancé visa into a spouse visa!).

Just a thought. Getting married in Senegal? Nothing to stop you having a simple legal ceremony there, followed by a big wedding blessing back in the UK.

As regards the general point, no one is able to issue guarantees here. However if the application form is completed truthfully and all the needed evidence is submitted in support of the application, it should be successful. That other thread .... a failed asylum seeker who lied to IND about his origin ... granted a spouse visa with no problem.

The delay for settlement visa interviews in Dakar? I think you need to establish the length of delay. Is it just days? Or much longer? It is just 5p per minute to call Senegal if you use one of the services as listed on Niftylist - Senegal.

[worried]

I am beginning to get the picture now, thank you again. I can see we will need to start with the Senegal Embassy in London to get his passport and move on from there. I have a fairly good income so am not too concerned about the financial implications. I suppose the cost of converting to a spouse visa from UK can be offset against the cost of us both flying out to Senegal and getting married twice but we will look more closely at that once we have got his passport. I am so grateful for your help John and feel for the first time in weeks that there is a way forward from this – a legal way forward. I will keep you informed of our progress.

[John]

I agree, get the matter of the Sengelalese passport sorted! After all without such a passport, well there is nothing to put a visa into!

But also I think it will do no harm in phoning the Visa Section in the British Embassy in Dakar and asking them about the delays on settlement visa interviews. You need not go into any detail when phoning them ... "My fiance will be applying for a settlement visa in the near future. We shall be handing in all the supporting evidence with the application. Can you give me an idea how long it will take to consider the application?" ... or something like that.

[worried]

Hi I really just wanted to update this message and let you know the conclusion. I hope others in our situation can take something from it and move forward as I did from similar bulletins.

I apologise in advance for the detail but this is exactly the kind of detail I would have liked to have found when I was searching this site for direction.

We decided that we would apply for a fiancé visa and that my fiancé would travel to Senegal himself to put this application in. This was for a number of reasons but largely due to the fact that we didn’t know how long it would take and I was unlikely to be able to take the time off work. We had previously visited the website of the British Embassy in Senegal to ensue we had all details of the procedure, opening times, cost etc and emailed them for an approximate timescale but they were unable to give us this.

Our first stage was to go to the Senegalese Embassy in London with his Senegal ID and birth certificate to get a travel document. This entitled him to travel out of the country but not back in (although we had bought a return ticket, optimistically covering him for a month). Once he arrived at Senegal he applied for a Senegalese passport there which took two weeks to complete.

We had completed the visa application together in UK and put together a large portfolio of evidence of our relationship and my ability to sponsor his stay here. The evidence consisted of a ring bind folder sub divided into sections with each individual document placed in a clear plasic wallet. These were:

1. Evidence of my income - 12 months pay slips
2. Evidence of my financial viability - 12 month bank statements
3. Evidence of my home - photographs, mortgage statements, council tax bill
4. Evidence of our relationship - photographs not only of him and me but also of him with other members of my family, my children our engagement party and our attendance at other family occasions. We ensured that each photo was clearly labelled with the date and occasion and that there were a range of English seasons included i.e. photos in the snow, daffodils at Easter etc.
5. Evidence of my UK legal status and good character - certified copy of my passport, birth certificate and divorce papers. We even included in this my degree certificates and clear Criminal Records Bureau disclosure that was done for my employment with the NHS.

My sponsor letter and the visa application form headed these sections and I included in this details of how we met, how we intended to marry soon and how he had become integral to my life and my family. I also highlighted my legal status to marry, my comfortable financial situation and asserted my honest character.

I rang the Embassy just before he submitted his visa application to try and find out how long it might take. They were very helpful and said the applicant will usually be given an appointment for interview three weeks after submission. This of course was too long for us as his ticket to travel home was two weeks later. She advised me that if there is a pressing reason to have a shorter appointment wait he should mention it at submission.

They did indeed offer him an interview appointment three weeks after his submission but he told them he planned to travel on the 28th Feb, showed them his ticket and they changed the appointment to 21st Feb.

His interview was fairly straight forward. They asked him how he had come to the UK in the first place to which he answered honestly that he came on a false passport and that he had worked under a false name since arriving. Further questions included asking him details about me and my sons and around whether he had had other relationships in UK before me. After the interview they asked him to come back the next day 22nd Feb for the result.

They gave him his visa yesterday!

Thank you John for all your invaluable advice without which it would have been impossible to find direction. And thank you also to everyone who has posted their story on this board. Reading positive outcomes of others really gives you hope to move forward.

[John]

Hey worried ... or should you be renamed ... not worried ... that is great news!

Hope he has a safe journey back on the 28th .... and then the two of you can get married and get on with your lives! Have a long and happy life together!

Given the nature of the background to this ... and the successful outcome ... I hope you don't mind if this topic gets referred to quite a bit ... as encouragement to others yet to get to the conclusion of the situation!

[worried]

Yes of course John - this is why I have gone into so much detail

[worried]

Hi
I know I'm just about sorted now but I wonder if I could just make another enquiry regarding fiancé visa status. We are getting married in June and were planning to take a honeymoon first in France then on to Ibiza. Can my fiancé travel freely to these countries with his current visa or will we have to apply for some kind of temporary “holiday” visa for him?

Many thanks

[John]

Can my fiancé travel freely to these countries with his current visa or will we have to apply for some kind of temporary “holiday” visa for him?

No, his UK visa will not assist him as regards getting into France or Spain.

He will need to apply for a Schengen visa and as France is the first Schengen country he will enter he should make the application at the French Consulate in London. (Actually I say London, but where in the UK are you? In particular, which county do you live in?)

Once he has a Schengen visa he can use that to visit not just France but also any other Schengen area country, including Spain. Indeed if you travel direct from France to Spain you will find there are no immigration-style checks at all.

[worried]

Once again John, thank you for this informaiton.

I’ve checked up Schengen visas and we live in Yorkshire so are able to apply by post if we want to. My worry is, and I’ve emailed the French Consulate about this, that it says in their guidance that any British residency has to be valid for more than three months. As we are getting married in June he will only have two months left on his fiancé visa.

Would it be advisable to apply to convert the fiancé visa first and then think about honeymoon? By the way how do we do this and how long does it take? There seems to be very little information around about this.

Why couldn't I just have fallen in love with a British man?!

[John]

As you say, living in Yorkshire, you are allowed to apply for a Schengen visa by post to the French Consulate in London.

But you have correctly mentioned the matter of having at least three months left. So indeed it might be best to postpone the trip into "Schengen land" until the two-year spouse visa is in his passport.

There is an added benefit in delaying. Once the marriage has happened your husband (as he will be) will be a Family Member of an EU Citizen ... you! It therefore follows that the Schengen visa will be free ... and all the starred questions of the application form need not be completed. In short, it is very much easier and cheaper to get a Schengen visa after the marriage has happened.

Visa is free? Yes, but they do insist that if you are applying by post that you enclose a prepaid self-addressed Special Delivery envelope. As you will undoubtedly want to send the application by Special Delivery, in view of its contents ... two passports and the marriage certificate .... you are talking about 2 x circa £4 = circa £8 for the visa ..... but that is distinctly cheaper than a trip to London!

So plan for a UK honeymoon? Lots of lovely places to visit in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland! Indeed I say ... a bit tongue in cheek .... get married .... start the honeymoon in Glasgow ... and visit the PEO there and get the spouse visa .... after that spouse visa is in the passport, post the Schengen visa application off to London ... continue on the honeymoon ... the Highlands and Islands of Scotland .. by the time you get back to Yorkshire, waiting on your doormat might be a card from the Post Office saying they have a Special Delivery envelope requiring a signature!