Spouse visa refused after 6 years of Marriage

[Zebedey]

Hello,

My wife is Irish and living in London. I am an American who is trying to move over there with her. We have known each other and lived together from 2000 and married in 2004. During this time we were working in pubs while living above them so we had no bills rent agreements etc.
After we got married we moved to NJ where all bills and rent agreements were in my name as we needed to apply for her visa there. In 2009 we left for London. I have had to return recently to America to apply for entry clearence as a spouse. All of the documents they asked for we sent to them. On Wednesday I was sent my documents back informing me that my visa was refused. Here is the reason given in the letter.

You have applied for entry clearance to settle in the United Kingdom. I have considered your applcation under paragraph 281 of the United Kingdom Immigration rules.
The Decision
You wish to settle in the UK with your wife. However you have submitted little evidence as proof that your marriage is subsisting. You state that our relationship with your sponsor began in January 200 and that you have lived together until now. I acknowledge your marriage certificate as proof you were married in NJ USA (Date given 2004) I acknowledge the copies of email correspondence that you have provided from december 2010. However this is not proof enough that your relationship is subsisting and that you have lived together with your sponsor since January 2000 as claimed. Therefore, I am not satisfied that you and your sponsor intend to live permanently with each other as spouses and the marriage is subsisting. 281(iii).


We are going to launch an appeal. We are going to provide the following documents on our behalf.
Signed Headed letters from both friends and family some of whom date back to 2000 who will state that for the duration of our friendship we have always lived together as husband and wife.
I found an old document with both of our names on it from the US Government regarding her visa.
We have talked on skype for over 100 hours in the 2 plus months that I have had to be here in America. It is tricky to print skype but they keep records of every conversation you have with each individual person. I copied the text into word and it is 28 pages of correspondence. I wonder if it will be accepted.
Also I am printing off about 30 photo's of us together with family members as well as on our own over the last 11 years. They clearly show differences in age and the like.

I am wondering what else I can give them to win our appeal and really just looking for advice in general. Any help at all would be appreciated. This is one of the worst times of our lives.
Also what kind of time frame are we looking at? I have read it could range from anything from 8 weeks to a year.
I thank anyone who will help out in advance and hope to hear something soon.

[ginoT]

(iii) each of the parties intends to live permanently with the other as his or her spouse or civil partner and the marriage or civil partnership is subsisting

photos, postcards sent to friends/family, phone bills, email or skype, anything you can get your hands on. You also need to prove the bit which requests you prove you can get by "without recourse to public funds". If you can appeal, you will win (you can represent yourselves if you prepare enough for it).

There will be some case law (at Judicial Review level or AIT) which if you can dig out should provide extra weight to your case.

The other option is she moves in with you in the US, you get bills etc in both names etc over 6months or so, then apply again.

[Zebedey]

Thank you so much for the speedy reply. We have found some xmas cards anniversary cards from our family to both of us as well. We also found an old booking reference from a holiday we took a few years back.
I do not know at all what Judicial Review level or AIT is. Could you go into a little detail as to what I should do in that regard?
I have 14,000 Dollars in the bank over here. I would assume that this should be enough to show funds. The problem with it is that the bank account has been in both me and my fathers name as we decided not to use it so left it in America. I guess I will have to create a new bank account. We also have nine months of payslips of hers showing her to be earning 1,900 pounds per month with our rent being 655 pounds per month on our tennancy agreement.
I am hoping this wont take too long as it seems like an age already.
Thank everyone in advance for any more advice that can be given.

[Kitty]

Assuming that 281(iii) was the only ground for refusal, I would concentrate on the most recent evidence you have of your relationship: the period in which you were together in the UK (and maybe your most recent time in NJ: did your wife submit a complete copy of her Irish passport including the page with her US visa on it?), and your correspondence since you left.

I think it is misleading of the ECO to imply that you need to provide evidence of your cohabitation going all the way back to 2000! The requirement is simply as ginoT has posted: that your marriage is subsisting NOW, and that you INTEND to live together int he UK.

What did you do when you came to the UK in 2009 and where did you live? What kind of visa did you apply for then? Has your wife visited you in the 2 months you have been back in the UK? Has she made arrangements for your name to be put on the tenancy in the UK?

NB For most online communications (IM, skype) you can print out a screen-grab: use the "Print Screen" button on your keyboard and paste the image into a document to print out (sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs!). You then have an image that should include the date. I would do this regularly for a selection of your online contact from now on.

Continue to keep financial information as well, to show that you continue to meet the maintenance and accommodation requirements at the time the appeal is heard.

AS to timescales, the First Tier Tribunal FAQ confirms that the earliest you would get a hearing is after 24 weeks If you prepare your appeal well and submit it to the post in the USA, you may be successful at the review stage, however, which could be a lot quicker.[/b]

[ginoT]

just to be clear, you've been given the option to appeal?

You've 2 routes from here.

1 - Either you get a good immigration solicitor to manage your appeal application. All in, it'll cost a good £1000-£1500

2 - You manage your application, appeals 'n all.

Option (1) is the easy option and the safest option, but it comes at a price. It also probably will be the quickest one too because you will submit your appeal through the British consulate where you are and this will get vetted by an ECO (Entry Clearance Officer). They are supposed to "double check" refusals before forwarding back to the UK and trickle down the appeals process. Often they will overturn the refusal and issue the visa. When they see a good appeal pack, written by competent solicitors, they'll think twice as you've a good chance of winning at appeal. Another reason for getting a solicitor is that this is bl00dy serious - it's your marriage goddam it!

Option (2) is cheaper needless to say, but you'll have to do your own research, delving into the rules, querying them through people on this site, and putting your appeal document together yourself. It's doable (I've done it, but not for spouse visas) but be prepared for a ton of work. Your wife would then have to represent you at appeal if it goes to an actual hearing. AIT stands for Asylum and Immigration Tribunal. Judicial Review is a litigation process that you bring against a government body, challenging their enforcement of the law, when not given the right of appeal. I'm involved in a JR myself.

I would advise do (1) but do as much research as you can stomach by understanding the rules link I've posted and reading up on other people's experiences on this forum. There's a massive wealth of knowledge already posted. Use it. Anyway, challenging and checking your lawyers helps. They can make mistakes, be lazy and are not always the experts they claim to be as I have found out.

[batleykhan]

I personally think the documents that they are requesting are documents which are official rather than personal ones like OP has suggested to provide. Whilst such documenst do help,official documenst, like joint bank statements, joint tennancy agreements, bills with both names are important that the relation is genuine and is subsiting.

These docuemnst spread over the time since teh relationship began would probally change the outcome without OP having to go through lengthy and expensive appeal procedure as I am sure the matter will be overturned on review.

This type of mistake is one a lot of people in this sittuation make.

[ginoT]

but if he hasn't got these docs (ie they don't exist), what does he do? Like you say, you need them over a period of time. But he needs them now!

[Zebedey]

To answer all of your questions

Kitty, my wife photocopied only her passport main page. When we were in America the US government lost her application pack so were unable to issue a green card as we had sent them all original documents and they demanded them again. This is why we left America in 2009 and moved to England. We had only just started using skype so we submitted our email corrospondence. We got a live in Bar Job in the UK when we first arrived which lasted about 8 months. It was during this time it became clear that I was going to need a visa for England. We then moved into a room. Both of our names are on this tenency agreement which we did submit to them. In between the 2 places we stayed with our friend in milton keynes.
I then applied to change my status in the UK to a spouse. after a while we recieved a letter of refusal telling us that we could not change status while in England. This is when I left and returned to America. That brings us to where we are now. Because of her visa situation in America we are unsure that she would even be allowed in to visit me.

Gino, Yes I have the right to appeal. They sent me the appeal package with my refusal letter and documents. I have 22 more days to get my appeal in. It's been a very hectic few days getting in contact with people asking for letters and digging out whatever documents we could find. It was yestarday that I finally had time to start checking into forums (spent all day yestarday scouring until my eyes went square. We have logged I would guess over 100 hours on skype. I will be printing as many of them off as possible using the printscreen thing. this will probably be over 40 pages.

Batleykahn, It's as Gino says. We never bothered to open joint bank accounts so we have nothing like this. The closest thing I got is a paypal account which has addresses with both our names. I.E our recent address is listed twice once in her name and once in mine. While in America I got our apartment for us before she was able to enter the US so the Lease was always in my name. It never occurred to us that this would be an issue.

I thank everyone for the help and continue to ask. From all of the posts I have managed to read the few responses In this thread have been the most helpful so far.
We are also considering moving to Ireland if my appeal is unsuccessful. Can't seem to find out if this will be an issue or not.
Thank you again for your continued help.

[batleykhan]

Batleykahn, It's as Gino says. We never bothered to open joint bank accounts so we have nothing like this. The closest thing I got is a paypal account which has addresses with both our names. I.E our recent address is listed twice once in her name and once in mine. While in America I got our apartment for us before she was able to enter the US so the Lease was always in my name. It never occurred to us that this would be an issue.

Ok so you have legal tennancy agreeemet for your property. All you need to show something in your wifes name at that adress at the time of the TA.

Paypal is good evidence as well.If you dont have shared docs then seperate docs at the same address would do nicely. If you are going to get statements from "friends" it would be better if these people are "officials" of some sort who know you both and can confirm that you are married and are living together are better than say non officials or family.

I think you are worrying about soemthing which I think can easily be overturned and visa issued.If you can get these together, I will try and help youand show you how to respond to the appeal if you can get the docs together first. Remember you have 28 days from the day you were handrd refusal notice.

[Plum70]

Hold on everyone... If the OP's wife is Irish then why is he not applying for an EEA Family permit via the EEA route which is free and based on an accelerated process?

Via the above route all the OP needs to show is proof of marriage, that his Irish wife resides in the UK and that he intends to join her.

On the other hand, if the goal is to attain permanent residency asap, then the UK route is the faster (though more pricey) option.

[Zebedey]

Plum, I am very interested in this option. My only concern is being with my wife as fast as possible. Even if I were not allowed to work for a while it matters not to us. When this issue first came up all we were told is to apply to change status from visitor to spouse (which was refused).

In terms of time for appeal. My wife is sending all relevant documents UPS some time this coming week. I expect I should have about 14 days left by the time I get these docs. On my end I should have everything within the next week as well.
We know both a police officer and the Mayor of the town we lived in NJ whom I will be visiting to ask for letters.
I thank you all for your continued assistance.

[Zebedey]

Hold on everyone... If the OP's wife is Irish then why is he not applying for an EEA Family permit via the EEA route which is free and based on an accelerated process?

Via the above route all the OP needs to show is proof of marriage, that his Irish wife resides in the UK and that he intends to join her.

On the other hand, if the goal is to attain permanent residency asap, then the UK route is the faster (though more pricey) option.

Is it really that easy even though I have been refused entry clearance?

[Plum70]

Is it really that easy even though I have been refused entry clearance?

You've been refused entry clearance under UK immigration rules but you can 'ignore' this (if you do not mind forfeiting the application fee) and apply to the nearest BHC for an EEA Family permit via the EEA/EU route (as your wife is Irish and is exercising treaty rights in the UK) and you will be issued this permit free of charge and based on an accelerated procedure. See the UK Visas website: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply ... s#22862675

Once you have been issued the EEA Family permit you can join your wife in the UK and begin working immediately. You may also apply for a UK residence card (see: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ropeanlaw/) which is free of charge and will carry the endorsement "Family member of a EEA national" and is valid for five years. This confirms your freedom to work, start/run a business, study etc in the UK without restrictions. There are however residence-related restrictions which dictate that neither you nor your EEA spouse can be out of the UK for more than 6 months per year w/out breaking your residence/resetting your residence clock.

For an in-depth look at EU law and your rights therein, see these docs: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary and http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Hope this helps to clarify...

P.S: On 2nd thoughts, as you are a non-visa national you may also just hop on a flight to the UK, bypassing the need for a EEA Family permit, and apply for a residence card from within the UK!

[Zebedey]

I don't think I would be admitted into the UK without entry clearance at this point.
To get this right it looks like I need to fill out the VAF5 EEA Family Permit. If this is wrong please tell me. I have had a look at the application. It looks much the same as the last one I did.
I am not at all worried about losing the original fee as I figured it lost money in the first place. Do I need to tell them that I do not intend to appeal the decision before I apply for this?
I will wait until my wife sends all of the additional documents along with the required passport copy and letter of invite.
Does anyone else think this is the right way forward for me? It looks like it is pretty straight forward. Just worried about having to answer the refused visa questions. Will this possibly effect my decision this time?
Needless to say we will be opening a joint bank account the minute we are back together.
Sorry for all of the questions. I am just so concerned about not being able to see my wife for a long period of time.
Any ideas on how long this process takes?
I thank you all for your continued assistance and will be looking forward to hearing your opinions and thoughts.
Thank you again.

[skyepark]

Can i ask did you submit photos of you both the first time around?

[ginoT]

look, you've got the right of appeal so use it. As batleykhan and I have said, assuming the appeal pack is good enough, you could easily get the refusal overturned in no time. If that doesn't happen you can request the appeal is made on papers only (ie so you're not represented in person at the appeal) and concurrently go down the EEA if you so choose.

The appeal is free to do if you do-it-yourself and you've nothing to lose by submitting the docs. So I really don't understand why some people just drop the opportunity when you've a high probability of getting the visa.

There is another reason for appealling (and winning) is that you won't get a refusal stamp on your passport. You won't be branded for life for having been refused entry. You won't have to declare this refusal on future visa applications for other countries which you might apply for.

[batleykhan]

The only disatvantage in appealing is that it takes time.

If you are lucky , they may overturn the decison on review ( this could take 2 months).

If they dont and it has to go a full hearing then it can take 6 months.

Its free and it wont cost you anything to apeeal ( unless you get a solicitor to act on your behalf).

In 85% of spouse cases the appeallant usually wins their appeal.If you honestly believe your relationship is genuine, then you will almost certainly suceed.

The decison is yours to make as to which of the two routes you wish to follow.

Good luck

[Plum70]

I don't think I would be admitted into the UK without entry clearance at this point.
To get this right it looks like I need to fill out the VAF5 EEA Family Permit. If this is wrong please tell me. I have had a look at the application. It looks much the same as the last one I did.

Yes VAF5 is the correct form.

Do I need to tell them that I do not intend to appeal the decision before I apply for this?

If upon consideration you do not wish to go down the appeal route, then just withdraw your appeal and lodge a EEA Family permit application following the guidelines in the link.

Does anyone else think this is the right way forward for me? It looks like it is pretty straight forward. Just worried about having to answer the refused visa questions. Will this possibly effect my decision this time?

It is straightforward! I understand that you are wary but the refusal should have no bearing on future visa applications once you have been issued a EEA Family permit/residence card. The non-EEA family member of a EEA national is treated as though they were EEA nationals (for residence and some visa-related circumstances) by virtue of the rights conferred on them by their subsisting r/ship with their EEA spouse. Also, as you are a non-visa national the hurdles of applying for visas to most countries is removed.

Any ideas on how long this process takes?

The EEA Family permit application should be decided based on an accelerated procedure. I have heard of decision times of as little as 1 week. The other end of the scale could be a few months depending on individual circumstances.

[Zebedey]

As of right now I will wait until I receive the documents from my wife. I still have some time to make a decision on which route to take. Today I went to the bank with my father and closed the joint account while opening one in my name. I got 2 headed letters from the bank on the spot stating that we closed the one account and the other letter stating that I opened the other. The balances were also mentioned in said letters. They have told me that They will send me a statement tomorrow and could print one for me if nessasary.
Is it really possible to appeal and apply for the eea pass at the same time? It is the same consulate as last time. To be honest for me it isn't about the passport. It is about being with my wife as fast as possible.

Skyepark to answer your question no we did not send any photo's of ourselves in the previous application. At no point on our checklist was it ever mentioned.

Plum I have looked at the application and it asks for how long I intend to stay in the UK. What kind of response would I answer. Obviously my intention is to stay for ever. I just don't think that is the answer they want.
Like I said, we have not made a decision as to which route to take. I will say we are indeed leaning toward the eea family pass as it seems quicker. As I have stated our main concern is to be together as fast as possible.
I must say I am so grateful to all of you for your advice. I have been scouring the boards on this site daily since I have joined. This is still the most helpful.
Another question I have is has anyone had any experience with the Visa Bureau? I made contact with them a few days ago. They have quoted 600 pounds to help us with our application for an eea family pass and 5 year pass. Is this a reputable company?
I think we can do this on our own but I am curious to know what everyone thinks.
I will once again thank you for your continued assistance. I know that once this is done I will continue to be a member of this forum site and hope to be able to help someone else in the future.
Thank you again

[skyepark]

i think the photos are proof of a subsisting relationship is enough to overturn the decision. Since you've paid your money use it other posters on here have a lot of experience, also what about including wage slips to show you were both living at the same address.

[daddy]

As of right now I will wait until I receive the documents from my wife. I still have some time to make a decision on which route to take. Today I went to the bank with my father and closed the joint account while opening one in my name. I got 2 headed letters from the bank on the spot stating that we closed the one account and the other letter stating that I opened the other. The balances were also mentioned in said letters. They have told me that They will send me a statement tomorrow and could print one for me if nessasary.
Is it really possible to appeal and apply for the eea pass at the same time? It is the same consulate as last time. To be honest for me it isn't about the passport. It is about being with my wife as fast as possible.

Skyepark to answer your question no we did not send any photo's of ourselves in the previous application. At no point on our checklist was it ever mentioned.

Plum I have looked at the application and it asks for how long I intend to stay in the UK. What kind of response would I answer. Obviously my intention is to stay for ever. I just don't think that is the answer they want.
Like I said, we have not made a decision as to which route to take. I will say we are indeed leaning toward the eea family pass as it seems quicker. As I have stated our main concern is to be together as fast as possible.
I must say I am so grateful to all of you for your advice. I have been scouring the boards on this site daily since I have joined. This is still the most helpful.
Another question I have is has anyone had any experience with the Visa Bureau? I made contact with them a few days ago. They have quoted 600 pounds to help us with our application for an eea family pass and 5 year pass. Is this a reputable company?
I think we can do this on our own but I am curious to know what everyone thinks.
I will once again thank you for your continued assistance. I know that once this is done I will continue to be a member of this forum site and hope to be able to help someone else in the future.
Thank you again

I have read your posts and found out that you are really confused, I surgest you calm down and follow instructions given to you regarding EEA route. If you truely want to join your wife soonest, then follow the EEA route, take time and read the links a poster gave you regarding EEA route, which is very easy and hassle free way to join your spouse, do not waste your time and money chasing appeal and all that, believe me they will frustrate you and your marriage. I understand that the EEA route appears so easy to be true, but I tell you, IT IS TRUE. Take few hours to read those links you were giving on this forum about EEA route, it will help you so much. You need only to submit to uk embassy your marriage certificate, both passports, prove of your wife's address in uk, and your wife's employment letter in the uk, then will be fine, NO VISA FEE, within 1 to 4 weeks you are already in uk, this is NO magic, it is the eu freedom of movement Directive(rules) for eu citizens and their family members. Please, we dont want you to continue struggling for lack on knowlege of eu freedom of movement. The earlier you follow this, the better and more economical it would be for you. The visa they will issue to you is called family permit which is valid for six months, you will then need to apply for a residence card when you are in uk, you will need to submit to uk home office, marriage certificate, both passports, employment contract of your wife, proof of your address( eg utility bills, rent contract, on both your names), NO FEES, then within 6 months maximum, you will be issued a residence card valid for 5 years, which will not only allow you to live and work in uk but also exempt you from visa requirement throughout all eu countries. Though your initial 6 months family permit allows you to work pending issuance of your 5 years residence card. The choice is yours. Good luck.

[Plum70]

Is it really possible to appeal and apply for the eea pass at the same time?

Better to withdraw your appeal and then apply for a EEA Family permit to avoid the consulate staff being confused.

Plum I have looked at the application and it asks for how long I intend to stay in the UK. What kind of response would I answer. Obviously my intention is to stay for ever. I just don't think that is the answer they want

It's not a trick question! Put down 'indefinitely'

Like I said, we have not made a decision as to which route to take. I will say we are indeed leaning toward the eea family pass as it seems quicker. As I have stated our main concern is to be together as fast as possible.

EEA route, EEA route, EEA route... couldn't say it enough - it's quick, non-intrusive and F-R-E-E!

Another question I have is has anyone had any experience with the Visa Bureau? I made contact with them a few days ago. They have quoted 600 pounds to help us with our application for an eea family pass and 5 year pass. Is this a reputable company?

Thieves! Don't even think about it... applications under the EU route are as simple and straight forward as they come. As long as you qualify: in your case, can prove marriage to EEA national, in a subsisting r/ship, EEA national is exercising treaty rights (self/employed, self sufficient, studying, job seeker) and neither of you spend more than 6 months per year outside of the UK your rights of residence are guaranteed. Pls apply yourself.

Any other qs just ask!

[Zebedey]

So will I need to have her passport? It's not an issue but I need to know as she is sending her package to me at the end of this week. As of now she has gotten a certified copy of it with copies of her old visa to America and Stamps that show us travelling together.

Skyepark, we sent 9 months of wage slips showing that in the original application. They were addressed to the place we were renting with both of our names on the tenancy agreement. Thankfully, we got those back in the return package.

My wife and I are both in agreement to move forward on the EEA route. I understand that I would probably win an appeal if we chose to do this. Our lives have been put on hold long enough over the years due to red tape like this. This seems our best option. I figure in the future I will apply for residency to the UK once we have built up enough time and paper we were missing this time together.
I hope I am not upsetting any one who has responded with this decision. Please do not feel your time wasted as every thing has been helpful to me!
I will not be using the visa bureau as I also feel it to be a waste of money having looked over the criteria for this visa.
I will wait to inform the Consulate that I will not be appealing until I have my package from my wife.

My plan is to send all of the supporting documents in this application that we have been preparing for a possible appeal. I figure even if it is overkill it's better than what happened last time. I realise I probably don't need to send all of this but, I will receive most of these documents back anyway.
I will continue to research the matter and will continue to ask for your assistance when needed. I am eternally grateful for all of your help and advice.
Thank you again.

[batleykhan]

: in your case, can prove marriage to EEA national, in a subsisting r/ship,

Correct me if I am wrong but was it not for this specific reason you were refused????.

If you couldn't prove this for your spouse visa, then how are you going to do for the EEA route?

Just a thought

[Zebedey]

I am certainly hoping that between the photo's I am sending from over the years and the continued daily corrospondence through skype (45 pages and counting).The letters from a police officer and the mayor of the town we resided in whilst in America along with the things we had before (marriage cert. tennancy agreement from before I returned to america with both our names on it) with the document from the US government addressed to both of us that this should be enough. Also sending a booking referance from a year ago showing us travelling together. Also printing of the paypal account with our addresses matching on it. A few cards from our family to both of us (dated). Other than that I don't think we could find another document. We have searched on both sides of the pond and this is what we have come up with.
If this is not enough for the EEA family pass then it is not enough to launch an appeal. Is this not the case? Is this still not going to be enough? Please let me know as I am still very worried myself.
There really will be no magic document to show up as far as I can tell at this point. This is what we got. If it is not enough than I don't know what we will do. It is even harder to do this for America so I figure it to be a lost cause.
What does everyone think? Is this going to be enough evidence to prove us a subsisting couple?
Thank you for your continued assistance.