Schengen visa must be applied for in Country of Origin?

[sarah82]

Hi All,

As you may see from my previous posts,
I am planning to turn up at Calais with my Non-Eea husband and my Irish national self! (currently living & working in Holland for the last 3 months)

As he has no residence card as of yet, I really wanted him to get a schengen visa to travel by bus Amsterdam to Calais, to keep it smooth.

E-mailed Belgium embassy in Netherlands (as Belgium would be first schengen state we 'hit' on route to Calais)

enquired about obtaining an appointment to apply for schengen and they have had the audacity to email me back saying that schengen visa can only be issued in husband's country of origin and so he cannot accompany me to Belgium until he receives a Dutch residence card.???????


This can't be right surely??????

[fysicus]

If your husband is legally living with you in Holland, I don't see why you need any additional documentation for travel (together) within the Schengen area.

Applying for a Schengenvisa within the Schengen area sounds very weird to me, and is probably impossible indeed.

You can ask the IND in Holland for advice.

Generally Residence Card applications in Holland are processed fairly quickly (a few weeks or so at most for straightforward cases).

[sarah82]

Well we applied for a residence card on 4th october and it would be what you'd call a straight forward case: we submitted an apostled UK marriage certificate from 05/2008 my work contract and payslips from here in the Netherlands and both our passports.

My husband is legally living here in the Netherlands yes, but he has no residence card as of yet, so entering another schengen state woildn't be that smooth,

He has only the sticker with his right to work & reside in the Netherlands in accordance with the EU regulations.

So am unsure on whether we'd get from Amsterdam to Calais smoothly with no schengen visa?

[fysicus]

I don't know when you want to travel, but there is no harm in asking when the RC can be expected. I'm not sure, however, if your case would be considered straightforward, given the previous conviction and extradition as you mentioned elsewhere.

I suppose you will also carry your marriage certificate to Calais and cross the UK border there, quoting the Brax arrest, and you can do the same at every intra-Schengen border crossing if anybody challenges (which I very much doubt will happen) your husband's right to travel.

I really can't see any real obstacle.

[sarah82]

Yes the case is one with a single conviction dating back to 01/2005 but since the extraditions and sentence were served I still view it as straight forward case as a conviction is not grounds for refusal, perhaps to the Dutch authorities it is considered not to be a straight forward case.
I am not familiar with the Brax arrest case, what did it involve?
Are there border controls between amsterdam and Calais do you know?
You see the Ind have said in a letter that we can expect a decision by 4th January, but our case has been exhausting traveling around from country to country and now my mother is not too well in the uk and we just really want to go home, my patience is wearing thin!:-)

[newbieholland]

Are there border controls between amsterdam and Calais do you know?

There are no border controls within the Schenegen. I have been on this route twice and had never seen any controls. I think you should be fine.

[sarah82]

Thank you newbie. How did you travel on that route? We're probably going to travel by coach with euro lines? Not sure if eurolines will ask to see any travel docs visas etc? ?

[Punjab]

first thing first,,, if your husband has any visa for any schengen country he is free to travel within any schengen zone withoiut visa for any other country/ies.

other thing... he need to have a uk family permitt to enter the uk which is free of charge but you have to prove why you are going there with your payslips etc permitt is free of charger and you should get in couple of days if youc an tell uk embassy that its really urgent depending upon your reason.. other wise i have read a case in here that you might be ok to enter uk via calais shoing your marrige certificate and valid passports on calais border post

ta

[newbieholland]

Thank you newbie. How did you travel on that route? We're probably going to travel by coach with euro lines? Not sure if eurolines will ask to see any travel docs visas etc? ?

I got on to the Euro lines starting from Amstelveen. Prebook it to get cheaper tickets.

No one will ask you for anything. Although there was a check at Paris where the Eurolines terminates, but they were checking a few people`s bag for some other obvious reasons. As long as you guys are together and carrying your marriage certificate you would not have any problem. Enjoy your trip to UK.

[sarah82]

Arrrrrggghhh!

The garbage spouted by most of the EU states is frustrating and mentally maiming me!
My husband and I have this worry of UK refusing free movement and therefore entry at Calais & then the french refusing entry to enable us back to Amsterdam!
We're probably being really pessimistic, but contacted the IND again today and whilst discussing this farce of a 'return visa' to the Netherlands for the grand price of 140 euros, I informed them that my husband is supposed by law, to be granted entry into any schengen state without their return visa as long as he's accompanied mby me & our marriage certificate, and the male member of staff said to me on the phone: "Well you could certainly try that, but have you ever had any encounters with Dutch or French police? I will tell you that you try travelling in France with no visa and explaining this directive to French Police and you will have a big problem on your hands Madam."

I know very well that it is our 'right' to move freely but this statement from the IND has made me fearful, mind you thats probably what they want so that we'll cough up the 140 euro for their 'return visa'

Feeling so worried and confused!

[newbieholland]

Arrrrrggghhh!

The garbage spouted by most of the EU states is frustrating and mentally maiming me!
My husband and I have this worry of UK refusing free movement and therefore entry at Calais & then the french refusing entry to enable us back to Amsterdam!
We're probably being really pessimistic, but contacted the IND again today and whilst discussing this farce of a 'return visa' to the Netherlands for the grand price of 140 euros, I informed them that my husband is supposed by law, to be granted entry into any schengen state without their return visa as long as he's accompanied mby me & our marriage certificate, and the male member of staff said to me on the phone: "Well you could certainly try that, but have you ever had any encounters with Dutch or French police? I will tell you that you try travelling in France with no visa and explaining this directive to French Police and you will have a big problem on your hands Madam."

I know very well that it is our 'right' to move freely but this statement from the IND has made me fearful, mind you thats probably what they want so that we'll cough up the 140 euro for their 'return visa'

Feeling so worried and confused!

DO you know there is a complaints department for IND and if you want I will PM you the number later. Apparently if you make complaints they normally revert back within 2-3 days. I had sorted out all the issues with the IND by phoning that number. So technically speaking you should get a free re-entry visa on a priority basis. Make a complaint and I am sure you will have it before your travel.

Although You should be ok without any additional visas but does your spouse not have any Schenegen visa?. If you are panicking so much just get a re-entry visa issued. I would suggest go to IND`s office in Sloterdijk and speak to someone there. Generally they do understand English

[sarah82]

Thank you very much Newbie. That would be useful if you could pm me the telephone number for the complaints department, is there also an email address to complain to? By the way I'm resident in The Hague, is that relevant or is it just a general telephone number?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

IND complaints go to: http://english.ind.nl/contact/Klachten_ ... estelling/

[sarah82]

Thanks Directive

[sarah82]

I'm sorry if this thread is becoming too long! Slightly changing the subject here, surrinder singh/regulation 9 shouldn't really apply to me as my passport is an irish one, but since the eea2 application form now asks if the eea citizen is also a British citizen then it possibly could. I am a little apprehensive that should my husband & I manage to get into the UK that the duration of my employment in the Netherlands would not be long enough to grant a UK RC? Three months of full time work at 40 hours a week? My guess is that should UK refuse on that basis, should it go to the appeal, the ECJ would probably conclude that 3 months is sufficient enough to be a genuine residence, although I may be wrong. Any opinions/knowledge on the duration?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

See the Danish immigration web site:

When is a Union citizen/an EEA national deemed to be a worker under EU law?

It depends on a concrete assessment of the specific circumstances of each case whether a Union citizen/an EEA national, including a Danish national, is deemed to be a worker under EU law. What is crucial is whether a person has had genuine and effective employment. Accordingly, employment appearing to be a mere marginal supplement is excluded from the scope of application of the concept. It is therefore normally a condition that the relevant employment was for at least 10-12 hours a week.

According to the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice it is normally a requirement that the applicant has been employed for a minimum of 10-12 hours per week, see judgment Kempf (C-139/85) and Megner and Scheffel (C-444/93).

In the case of Kempf the employment in question was 12 hours per week, and in the case of Megner and Scheffel the European Court of Justice has ruled that paid employment where the working hours normally do not exceed 18, 12 or even 10 hours per week do not exclude that the person is regarded a worker under the EU legislation.

In the judgment of Genc (C-14/09) the European Court of Justice established criteria for the purposes of the concrete and individual assessment of whether an employment for less than 10-12 hours per week is genuine and effective. These criteria may be the entitlement to paid leave, remuneration during illness, the duration of the employment, and a collective agreement applies to the employment. The employment in the mentioned case was 5,5 hours per week.

The European Court of Justice did not consider whether a weekly employment of 5,5 hours was sufficient in order to be considered a worker under EU law, or whether the employment was of a merely marginal nature. It was left to the member state to undertake this evaluation.

It is not possible to fix a lower limit for the duration of the employment for assessment purposes.

The European Court of Justice ruled in Franca Ninni-Orasche (C-413/01) that a fixed-term contract of employment for ten weeks was sufficient for the applicant to be a worker under EU law. The case concerned educational grants and led to the issue of guidelines to the local authorities about when a person is deemed to be a worker. The guidelines concern employment relationships for which a short-term contract has been concluded in advance. The guidelines fix a minimum period of ten weeks for such situations. However, it should be emphasised that a concrete assessment must be made in each case.

Accordingly, a concrete and individual assessment must be made in each case, and the ten-week period fixed by the Court in the Ninni-Orasche judgment is thus only to be seen as an example of a situation in which ten weeks of employment were deemed to suffice.

A Union citizen/an EEA national who has permanent employment, but ceases working after less than ten weeks, may satisfy the conditions for being a worker under EU law in certain circumstances, while another person having worked for more than ten weeks may not always satisfy the conditions because it is not genuine work or for other reasons.

[sarah82]

Thank you once again!

[sarah82]

Hi Forum,

Just to update have submitted complaint to IND reminding them what an audacious breach it is to suggest we pay money for a 'return visa' to the Netherlands. Emailed Belgium & French Embassys to no avail, schengen will not be granted.
Intend to see how IND respond to complaint if they are still adamant on charging money we'll take eurolines coach Amsterdam to London route.

Just another querie I wonder if anyone could assist with, the eurolines buses that use the p&o crossings are not available during the day time, there are 2 options, to arrive at calais at either 3am or 5am approximatly.

I may be being silly, but I just wondered would it be easy to find a senior member of ukba staff at that time of the morning, I worry they may be understaffed at such an early hour?

The earlier scheduled buses instead use the eurotunnel for the channel crossing and since most people that have derived rights at the border have used ferry I thought best to do the same, (plus i love ferry trips!)

Although would using the eurotunnel for the crossing be ok also?

Lastly am I right to think that the bus company will not ask to see visas and that there will be no passport control to face between amsterdam and calais?

Thanks for everyones help so far and I have provided a couple of links that people may already have but perhaps some will find of use!

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/5 ... 017226.pdf

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/7 ... member.pdf

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary


The last link has been mentioned here before, perhaps by Directive, and it applies from 24/08/2011 and states that the EEA FP is not mandatory.

[mastermind]

Also, you might want to have a look at this document (Part III specifically) on visa rules regarding EEA/CH family members: http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf
Page 94:

4. FAMILY MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS APPLYING FOR A VISA AT THE EXTERNAL
BORDERS
When a family member of an EU citizen, accompanying or joining the EU citizen in question,
and who is a national of a third country subject to the visa obligation, arrives at the border
without holding the necessary visa, the Member State concerned must, before turning him
back, give the person concerned every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary
documents or have them brought to him within a reasonable period of time to corroborate or
prove by other means that he is covered by the right of free movement.
If he succeeds in doing so and if there is no evidence that he poses a risk to the public policy,
public security or public health requirements, the visa must be issued to him without delay at
the border, while taking account of the guidelines above.

So, carry your marriage certificate with you and a printout of this document and you should be fine. (some persistence might be needed as well )

[fysicus]

Just to update have submitted complaint to IND reminding them what an audacious breach it is to suggest we pay money for a 'return visa' to the Netherlands. Emailed Belgium & French Embassys to no avail, schengen will not be granted.
Intend to see how IND respond to complaint if they are still adamant on charging money we'll take eurolines coach Amsterdam to London route.

I think your complaint to the IND is pointless. You got the wrong answer because you asked the wrong questions, I think.
With the sticker your husband currently has, he is legally resident in the Netherlands. And as such he can freely travel through, into or out of the Schengenzone, certainly if you two travel together and have proof of the marriage with you.
His status can change when the application for a Residence Card (which is now under consideration) will be rejected, but according to your description that seems highly unlikely to me. Your worries about travelling to Calais and getting stuck in limbo there are totally unnecessary. Just trust the good advice that many people gave you here and forget all the horror stories you may have read somewhere!

[sarah82]

Thanks again fysicus.
My husband was originally under the impression that the sticker would allow him to travel out of the Netherlands and still be able to return.
It was only when I telephoned to confirm this with the IND that they were adamant that he'd need a 'return visa,' that the current sticker would not suffice. Maybe they just want to make a few bob!

As I mentioned previously my husband was extradited from uk around 21 months ago, sentence was served and the conviction is from 01/2005 and the only conviction he has, although the refusal can only be on public security/health/policy risks, do you you think it could still become an issue at Calais?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

To be 100% safe, stay in the Netherlands. Christmas there is lovely!

[sarah82]

Yes it is very picturesque here, but Christmas with family is priceless so I think Calais it is!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If you have the time, go and force IND to give you a reentry visa for free. They should under no circumstances be charging for it when it is for the family member of an EU citizen.

[sarah82]

Some good news at least, got the return visa today for free at the ind. is valid for three months. Since we plan to travel to Calais by eurolines bus, would it be wise to ask the driver for our luggage back just prior to the ukba checks? As I figure if ukba take ages to grant entry, we could possibly miss that ferry and need to get the next one. Are the border checks carried out relatively close to the ferry entrance does anyone know?