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European citizens' initiative

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

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acme4242
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European citizens' initiative

Post by acme4242 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:02 am

Interesting idea from the EU commission, citizens can
propose EU legislation from 1st April 2012.
Requires a committee with 7 citizens from 7 EU states
then the proposals needs to be backed by at least
one million EU citizens. That might be the hard bit.

Anyway here is the info, I'm sure we can get 7 EU citizens from
7 different EU states on this forum. Just need good ideas after that.

http://ec.europa.eu/citizens-initiative ... asic-facts
Who can organise a citizens' initiative and how?
In order to launch a citizens' initiative, citizens must form a "citizens' committee" composed of at least 7 EU citizens being resident in at least 7 different member states.

The members of the citizens' committee must be EU citizens old enough to vote* in the European Parliament elections (18 except in Austria, where the voting age is 16).

Citizens' initiatives cannot be run by organisations. However, organisations can promote or support initiatives provided that they do so with full transparency.

The citizens' committee must register its initiative on this website before starting to collect statements of support from citizens. Once the registration is confirmed, organisers have one year to collect signatures.

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:21 am

I would suggest one central EU-agency, which posts on their website how and where to apply for Schengen-visas.

At the same time embassies may no longer publish their own details/crap about visas, but merely link to this central agency. This could be a start towards truly unified Schengen-visas.

2004/38/EC Article 5 Section 4 and 2004/38/EC Article 10 are merged, logically, as follows:

Every EU-spouse may (effectively already now) enter (all of) the EU/EEA. As such one card is designed, which looks identical throughout the EU. The issuing state only appears in one line in writing, no other differences by issuing state (see current mess >>here<<).

This card is available for EU-family-members living inside Schengen/the EU valid for 5 years, but also for EU-family-members living outside Schengen/the EU, valid for one year.

Upon first application it is accurately checked whether the applicant is eligible. Once this is established, upon renewal, a quick check to establish whether the person is still eligible suffices (i.e. still married?).

Note: So far this suggestion does not change the status quo, it merely clarifies and simplifies relevant procedures!

Two real changes I´d suggest:
  • The proposed card should allow for entry into the EEA without any further condition (travelling together...). After all, the traveller would have the right to settle (albeit only with his partner), but I´m sure illegal stays through this channel would be negligible.
  • If possible, Switzerland as a Schengen-member should be consistently included, which would mean some amendments in the "Free Movement of Persons Switzerland – EU/EFTA" agreement.
Last edited by ca.funke on Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:46 am, edited 5 times in total.

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:25 am

Extreme hardship on the immediate Schengen-border should be avoided.

See this example, which I find unacceptable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST-_1ICOrpo

It is just unacceptable to see the old lady, not being allowed to visit her husband´s grave, which is >>just across the fence<<. She surely has no intention to "cross into the EU for illegal purposes"! She just wants to leave her house, walking 200 metres into the direction of "her" church.

It could work like this: People on the immediate border get a permanent right to visit the other side. For villages as per video, a crossing only for the villagers should be opened. (One automated or semi-automatic video-surveilled gate per village should suffice)

To avoid abuse: The permanent visit-right should be limited to a specific area on the other side. Should anyone decide to break this condition, the permanent visit-right should be withdrawn for a while, in case of repetition permanently.

This would alleviate grave hardship at little expense. Surely little money compared to the overall border-fortifications...

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:07 pm

While I think >>this<< idea may actually be within the depth of a citizen´s initiative, the fact that the people in this forum are the ones who would benefit from it, but at the same time don´t express any interest (feedback received so far = zero ), is somewhat disillusioning...

If there´s not even a comment here, surely there won´t be 1000 signatures, let alone a million...

mastermind
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Post by mastermind » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:33 pm

ca.funke wrote:Extreme hardship on the immediate Schengen-border should be avoided.
WOW. Things like this make me think (once again): Why are there any restrictions in the fist place? Why do we accept as natural such artificial notions as closed borders and migration restrictions? Especially based on arbitrary criteria like where you were born or who your parents are? IMHO putting such things to rest in history (along with nazism, beloved etc.) is long overdue.
Of course some scholars and lawyers who write up detailed papers on peculiarities of application of EU directives and ECJ case law, on who should be allowed to stay/go where and who should not and why in their opinion, would lose their funding but hey it's a small price to pay :) Plus those funds could rather be spent on something productive for a change. (or taxes could be cut ;) )
Last edited by mastermind on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mastermind
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Post by mastermind » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:43 pm

ca.funke wrote:2004/38/EC Article 5 Section 4 and 2004/38/EC Article 10 are merged, logically, as follows:

Every EU-spouse may (effectively already now) enter (all of) the EU. As such one card is designed, which looks identical throughout the EU. The issuing state only appears in one line in writing, no other differences by issuing state (see current mess >>here<<).

This card is available for EU-family-members living inside Schengen/the EU valid for 5 years, but also for EU-family-members living outside Schengen/the EU, valid for one year.
I would add to this getting rid of reverse discrimination on EU level.

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 pm

mastermind wrote:Why are there any restrictions in the fist place? Why do we accept as natural such artificial notions as closed borders and migration restrictions? Especially based on arbitrary criteria like where you were born or who your parents are?
Let´s say only 10% of the people of all developing countries combined are unhappy about their living conditions. Now they hear stories about countries in which there is no (in reality little) discrimination, little poverty, health insurance for everyone... Let´s say they were all free to move as they please, no restrictions. Let´s say only those 10% would want to move to a "better place", whatever that might be. Let´s only take 10% of the Indian population as an example. Could Europe/the US/Canada/Australia handle 130Million people (10% of the Indian population), if they arrived tomorrow?

Furthermore this wouldn´t even start to fix the problems in those countries.

What we need is meaningful development aid, which enables development-countries to help themselves. Allowing uncontrolled immigration will not help anyone, certainly not in the big picture. I don´t want to be held responsible for mistakes made by other administrations...

Very cool details here, and also much more substantiated than what I just wrote:


Although I think this explains pretty well why I want our borders "controlled", at the same time I would like to know that it happens in an understandble fashion which makes sense, with the authorities following their own laws, and not causing unnecessary hardship without reason.

What is happening in Europe right now, however, does not make much sense and is hardly understandable. This failure of the authorities is part of my dedication in this forum.
mastermind wrote:I would add to this getting rid of reverse discrimination on EU level.
I agree that would be nice also, but it´s not within the scope of the EU to decide this. :/

In other words: Either the countries do this by their own will (example Belgium), or the EU-treaties would have to be changed in their foundations. Not saying I wouldn´t support, but it´d be ever so much more complicated...

rogels
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Post by rogels » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:37 am

"Article 4
Right of exit
1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, all Union citizens with a valid identity card or passport and their family members who are not nationals of a Member State and [b][b][size=18]who hold a valid passport[/size][/b] [/b]shall have the right to leave the territory of a Member State to travel to another Member State.
2. No exit visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on the persons to whom paragraph 1 applies."


THE AIRLINE STAFF IS CORRECT WHEN REFUSING TRAVEL TO FAMILY MEMBERS. THEY ALWAYS SHOULD HEVE VALID PASSPORT IN ADDITION TO
RESIDENT CARD OR OF UE FAMILY RESIDENT CARD
Timatic shows PASSPORT holders regulations only.
resident card is NOT a travel document[/b]

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:15 pm

rogels wrote:"Article 4
Right of exit
1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, all Union citizens with a valid identity card or passport and their family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who hold a valid passport shall have the right to leave the territory of a Member State to travel to another Member State.
2. No exit visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on the persons to whom paragraph 1 applies."


THE AIRLINE STAFF IS CORRECT WHEN REFUSING TRAVEL TO FAMILY MEMBERS. (This would depend on the circumstances!) THEY ALWAYS SHOULD HEVE VALID PASSPORT IN ADDITION TO RESIDENT CARD OR OF UE FAMILY RESIDENT CARD (No-one sais this isn´t so!)
Timatic shows PASSPORT holders regulations only. (Timatic shows entry requirements, including what allows entry into which country)
resident card is NOT a travel document [/b] (No-one said that this is so!)
Hi rogels,

what is your point, and how does it fit into this thread?
  • About your ALL CAPS, please read the >>netiquette<< post.
  • While a residence-card is not a travel-document, it is sometimes valid in lieu of a visa :!:
  • Obviously everyone, even family members, should have valid passports with them when travelling.
  • However, passports are not required under all circumstances, if you can "corroborate or prove by other means" who you are. >>Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC<< reads as follows:
    Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.
Regards, Christian

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:52 pm

am I allowed to come back after all these years? I might join you here.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:21 pm

Richard66 wrote:am I allowed to come back after all these years? I might join you here.
R u still in Italy?

You always have a place to stay, just a little more North ;)

Rgds, Christian

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