Non-EU wife of a British citizen in Italy

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:54 pm

My wife is Russian and has an Italian Permit of Stay as a family member of an EU Citizen and all other residence documents. I, on the other hand, am a British citizen living in Italy. We married in Italy and have applied for an International Marriage Certificate (e.g. also in English) which we plan in registering at the British Consulate as soon as it is ready.

We want to go to the UK in late September (always travelling together), but we simply cannot find any information on travel to the UK as a non-EU family member of a British citizen. All I can find are the rules for non-EU family members of EEA/Swiss citizens, with the mention that those rules do not apply for non-EU family members of British citizens.

The British Consulate in Rome no longer gives information, but refers one to their commercial partners, who, in turn ask for the equivalent to US$ 14 (payable by credit or debit card) to give any telephone information. I have serious doubts on the legality of this procedure, but let that pass, but I do feel this is not something which should be aked of a British citizen.

On the British Consulate (and Embassy) site in Rome they include the UK in the list of countries requiring a EEA family permit (in contradiction to the UK immigation rules). We filled in the form, in which questions were asked on previous travel, passports, refused visas, criminal activities, family in the UK, funding of the trip, etc. She was asked to book an appontment to go to Rome to have a digital picture and fingerprint scans made and she was asked to produce a marriage certificate, the Italian Permit of Stay, bank statements for the last three months, a letter from my employer stating the type of my work contract as well as my holiday period (coinciding with the dates requested for the visa), and payslips for the last three months.

I have written to the European Commission about this, I plan to call the Immigation and Border Agency on Tuesday and to write to HM Consul in Rome about this.

Now, I have no desire to go to Rome for this rigamarole, principally if I can travel with my wife without a visa. Can anyone help me?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:07 pm

Try the search - there's lots on this subject.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:01 pm

Indeed, I tried and I now I know that:

1) According to some she needs a visa;
2) According to others she does not;
3) According to yet others she needs a family permit.

This is very clear.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:26 pm

Richard66 wrote:Indeed, I tried and I now I know that:

1) According to some she needs a visa;
2) According to others she does not;
3) According to yet others she needs a family permit.

This is very clear.

OK, pls bear in mind I'm celebrating a 3-0 win today, hic....

She shouldn't need a visa, according the diretive we all know and love, but the knobbers on the immigration desks arent aware of it really, so it's a wing and a prayer to brass it out on the day as it were.

So the general concensus is just get a free schengen visa to avoid the hassle.

Depends on ur character really, I want to be sure so I go for the visa with my RU gf, my mate, also with a RU missus is so confrontational it's untrue, but even he hasn't risked it yet with his frequent trips to France.

I'm a bit pissed so I'd ingore my advice if I was u! Wait till tmrw when I say 'Did I post that?!!'

Udachi vam....

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:41 pm

What's this? You are telling me she needs a SCHENGEN visa to go from Italy to the UK? It is the opposite! She is going with me from Italy to the UK.

yankeegirl · Post by **yankeegirl** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:11 pm

Richard, you are right, she does not need a Schengen visa.

Are you wanting to go to the UK to visit or to move?

If it's for a visit, there are 2 ways to go I think. (Some one will correct me if I'm wrong)

1. Your wife can apply for a UK visitor's visa.
2. Your wife can apply for an EEA family permit. This is for family members of EU citizens wishing to visit/live in the UK. Normally a spouse of a British citizen would qualify but since you are in Italy (and I'm going on the assumption you've been working there for longer than 6 months) she can apply for this based on the Surinder Singh rule.

Technically, I think a non-EU spouse could be able to enter an EU state if travelling with their spouse and carrying the marriage certificate and such, but it's at the discretion of the IO whether to let you in, and some may not know the rules. So, for peace of mind applying for a family permit or vitistor visa might make things go smoothly.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:19 pm

Thank you for your answer. It's a short visit. No plans to relocate yet.

Indeed, I have been in and out of Italy for 13 years (though working only for 8 months or so.

What about all the nonsense about bank statements and all that? Is the refusal of a family permit a possibility if I fail to provide these?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:21 pm

Richard66 wrote:What's this? You are telling me she needs a SCHENGEN visa to go from Italy to the UK? It is the opposite! She is going with me from Italy to the UK.

Yes, sorry, I did say I was 'celebrating'.....

mym · Post by **mym** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:02 pm

Richard66 wrote:What about all the nonsense about bank statements and all that? Is the refusal of a family permit a possibility if I fail to provide these?

You DO NOT have to provide anything to get a EEA FP other than the passports and proof of the relationship (ie the marriage certificate). If they are asking for anything more, make a fuss - which I am glad to see you are already doing :)

A read of http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf should be useful to you.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:37 am

Thank you Mym! I had read the EC directive, but not this foolproof little manual!

I have written to the consul n Rome protesting about the EEA family permit procedure (which, incidentally, is longer and more complicated than the normal visa procedure) quoting not only this little manual, but also the UK Immigration Regulations in force. Indeed, if you read carefully, not even a visa or whatever the UK authorities choose to call it, is required! ONLY A VALID PASSPORT!

I have checked the Internet sites of various British consulates in the EU and all of them ask for an extensive list of documents. Heres's the one the consulate in Rome requests:

All applicants must complete the online form and produce the following documentation. All documents must be originals, unless otherwise specified. You should also produce a copy of your permit of stay and marriage certificate.

Passport or travel document valid for at least six months. Applicants who hold machine readable passports: if there is an error in the details on the machine readable page, you must obtain a new passport before we can accept your application;

Italian permit of stay (permesso di soggiorno) if you normally reside in Italy OR, if you are temporarily in Italy, a valid Italian/Schengen visa to cover the purpose of your temporary stay. Copy of your previous Italian residence permit (paper format) if you currently hold an electronic version;

Two recent photos;

Civil marriage certificate (if you were married outside Italy you must produce a certificate from your local commune confirming your marriage has been registered with the Italian authorities);

Identity document of spouse/person on whom you are dependant (ID card or passport);

Birth certificates for any children travelling, showing both parentsâ€™ details;

Evidence of sufficient personal financial means to maintain both/all of you in the UK (personal bank statements last three months/savings book). Third-party financial guarantees are not acceptable;

Letter from your spouseâ€™s/person on whom you are dependantâ€™s employer giving details of length of contract and specific dates of their authorised leave, and last three payslips in original;

Letter from your employer with last three payslips if you work, or letter from university/school if you study;

Declaration from the EEA national confirming they will be travelling to UK with you or that they are living in the UK and are inviting you to join/visit them, how long you will stay in UK, and that they will be present in the United Kingdom with you throughout the whole of your stay in the UK; that they will return to Italy with you at the end of your stay.

Besides this, they have asked my wife to go to Rome, to have fingerprints and a digital picture to be taken and to submit, with the application, all her previous passports! Incredible!

mym · Post by **mym** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:08 am

Indeed. I think they just carry on assuming there is no difference between EU/EEA rules and their own Immigration Rules.

Until people like you bash them over the head often enough.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:46 pm

Indeed, 3 bricks landed at the British Embassy in Rome: by registered post, by fax and by e-mail!

What really gets me is that the embassy gives no contract details for the visa section. One needs to call some so-called "commercial partner" who does not answer one's questions by e-mail, has no address, but only a telephone. Of course if you want information you can call, you only need to pay something like Â£7!

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:11 pm

In answer to my e-mail all I got was a shabby, anonymous answer, saying all visa applications should be made through the agency. This is the service to be expected from the British consulate.

mym · Post by **mym** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:16 pm

Keep going, and let us know any developments.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:50 pm

Richard66 wrote:Indeed, 3 bricks landed at the British Embassy in Rome: by registered post, by fax and by e-mail!

What really gets me is that the embassy gives no contract details for the visa section. One needs to call some so-called "commercial partner" who does not answer one's questions by e-mail, has no address, but only a telephone. Of course if you want information you can call, you only need to pay something like Â£7!

Cheap! My call to the German Consulate in London cost nearly Â£15!!!

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:55 am

No reply yet from the Italian Consulate... Meanwhile I've been studying the visa sections of the various EEA British Embassies. Some do not even realise such a thing as an EEA family permit exists, some realise it, but ask for an even longer list than the Italian Embassy does (the Greek one). Others have got the hang of it, but still insists on a 6-month validiy for the passport. Some say that the non-EU national must be resident in the EEA country for at least 2 years, or else they will be need to contact the Embassy in the family member's home country... The Winner is the German Consulate, but they still ask for a residence permit valid for at least 6 months and un up-to-date residence certification!

I am still not clear, however, do non-EEA family members need to go through this biometric nonsense? I find no reference to this in the immigration regulations for the EEA.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:03 pm

Partial victory.

I got an e-mail today saying all I need to submit are:

Crucial documents:

Completed and signed application forms
A valid national valid passport with at least one blank page and valid for 6 months [6 months? Not requested by the regulations!]
A photograph
Visa fee [they do try, don't they?]

Recommended documents:

Marriage certificate

They mention a sponsor! [Funny they do not want to know anything about me]

Why do they insist in ignoring their own regulations?

mym · Post by **mym** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:45 pm

Richard66 wrote: Why do they insist in ignoring their own regulations?

Because people don't fight :)

Keep going for the full victory!

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:34 am

What about the nonsense about fingerprints and the need to go in person to the visa centre? Are these requested for the EEA family permit or may I also flatly refuse to let my wife do this? How can I make sure my request gets priority? One can only book appoitments for the visa online, so no priority can be asked for.

I've sent a complaint to the Solvit service in Rome. Let's see what happens.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:22 am

I got a reply from the Citizens Signpost Service (European Union) who tell me that all my wife needs is her valid passport and her residence card (they even call it by the Italian name, permesso di soggiorno).

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:45 am

Richard66 wrote:I got a reply from the Citizens Signpost Service (European Union) who tell me that all my wife needs is her valid passport and her residence card (they even call it by the Italian name, permesso di soggiorno).

As we know, this is right. However, if you're flying you're going to have to convince the airline check-in person to let your wife board the plane, so be prepared for that.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:26 am

Well, I managed to get a written reply from the Vice-Consul in Rome, saying he is seeking advice on some of the points I raised, so, maybe things are developping a bit.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:29 pm

Now, hear this!

The vice-consul replied to me saying:

I, to take my wife to the UK, need to be going to the UK to exercise a treaty right. Has anyone ever heard that a citizen going back to his own country needs to be exercising a treaty right in order to do so? Will I be deported after 3 months if I don't find a job?

Can a British citizen exercise a treaty right in the UK?

He says if we were to go there to exercise my "treaty rights"

my wife could join me with an EEA family permit, but, as we're only going for tourism, she needs to apply for a visa.

So, I'll need to go back home to live to get a family permit?

And to think I've lived to read such rot from a British representative who seems to know less than I do about the law of the land.

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:41 pm

I think I have spotted the issue here.

Are you applying to visit the UK, or are you applying to live there and be either self employed, employed, study, or be financially self sufficient? These are the main categories for which you would be considered as 'exercising your treaty rights', and unless you are in one of these categories then you would not be able to sponsor your wife under EEA law.

However...there is another category, which I had missed until now. If you are coming to the UK as a 'provider or receiver of services' then this is also exercising your treaty rights. This is the category which visitors and tourists usually come into, so if you state this on the application, state that as you have been living in Italy for over 6 months then you can apply using EEA law as per Surinder Singh, then when the little man from the consulate looks this up, he will see that he has to grant the visa.

Victoria

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:25 pm

But it's ridiculous! I can go back to the UK whenever I want to! I don't need to answer any questions! I'm a British citizen, after all!

We're just going to board the Eurostar with the documents that the LAW requires and see what happens.

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Non-EU wife of a British citizen in Italy

Non-EU wife of a British citizen in Italy