Visiting Germany with 4EUFam card

[Heike]

Hi there,

I'm German with a Turkish husband who just got his 4EUFam card today. We both live and work in Ireland. I checked Germany's visa rules and it states that spouses of EU-nationals but NOT Germans who have this 4EUFam card do not need a visa if they are travelling together.

I checked with the embassy in Dublin today and was advised that he still needs a visa. Why is there a difference whether I'm German or any other EU-National?? Doesn't make sense to me. Are they right in what they are saying?

We have a son with an Irish passport. Does that make a difference in him needing a visa or not?

Thanks for any advice.

[cantaro]

I'm German with a Turkish husband who just got his 4EUFam card today. We both live and work in Ireland. I checked Germany's visa rules and it states that spouses of EU-nationals but NOT Germans who have this 4EUFam card do not need a visa if they are travelling together.

I checked with the embassy in Dublin today and was advised that he still needs a visa. Why is there a difference whether I'm German or any other EU-National?? Doesn't make sense to me. Are they right in what they are saying?

We have a son with an Irish passport. Does that make a difference in him needing a visa or not?

Nationals of Turkey need a visa to enter Germany; see (http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de ... licht.html).

While EU nationals can visit another EU/EEA country without a visa, this does not automatically apply to their spouses. Your husband's Irish residence permit will be deemed equivalent to a short-stay (tourist) visa by other EU states; however, when you travel to Germany, German law will apply instead of EU law because you are a German citizen.

Your son, as an Irish citizen, will not need a visa when using his Irish passport for travel.

[Heike]

Thanks,

But then what if he goes to Germany just with our son. As a family member of an Irish citizen he should not need a visa as per this EU treaty rights? Right?

[archigabe]

Thanks,

But then what if he goes to Germany just with our son. As a family member of an Irish citizen he should not need a visa as per this EU treaty rights? Right?

If he's travelling with your minor Irish son, the judgement in the Chen case by the ECJ applies...still, I would anticipate that he would not have a smooth ride because of border control officers not being familiar with ECJ ruling.

http://www.epha.org/a/1476

http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/chen.pdf

The chen case is more on residency, but i don't know of case law involving crossing borders with minor E.U family member.

[Heike]

Thanks,

The lady at the German embassy here in Dublin had to check with the German Department of Foreign Affairs regarding the question of needing a visa or not if travelling with our Irish son.... that just proves again how little they know here.....

Anyways, they confirmed that he will not need a visa as long as our Irish son is with us and he has his 4EUFam-GNIB-card.

I'm already worried of Border Control. Just unfriendly idiots sitting there....

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

While EU nationals can visit another EU/EEA country without a visa, this does not automatically apply to their spouses. Your husband's Irish residence permit will be deemed equivalent to a short-stay (tourist) visa by other EU states; however, when you travel to Germany, German law will apply instead of EU law because you are a German citizen

This is not correct. She is exercising treaty rights in Ireland, so EU law governs the entry of her family to Germany when she "returns". This is very clear, and is true if she move to Germany or goes for a few days.

Your husband has a Residence Card (4 EU FAM) issued as stated in Directive 2004/38/EC. When he is travelling with you or with his son, he has a right free movement in the EU. He should carry your marriage certificate or your son's birth certificate depending on who he is travelling with to prove his relationship with the EU citizen.

I have talked with the border police at Munich about this last year. Two of them were very helpful. They said that in fact no visa was required if the non-EU is travelling with the EU spouse and can prove the relationship. They said there was no need to apply for a visa. (The visa issuing machine of the London embassy disagrees, but it is their job to issue visas).

[Heike]

Hi Directive,

I would agree with the above, that as long as he is with his EU-Family member he should not need a visa for Germany. However, the embassy here (again confirmed by the Dep. of Foreign Affairs) still insists he DOES need one if our son is not travelling with us!? It is not sufficient that I - as his German spouse - accomany him...

Somebody please explain me what kind of sense this makes. I'm going to my own country with my husband...

Thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Remember that the German government is a huge organization.

There is a little bit of it that is responsible for giving out visas. Their whole role in life is to give out visas to anyone who applies, except those that it decides are not allowed to have them. They will not get in trouble if they say you need a visa but you actually do not. They will get in trouble if they tell you that you do not need a visa and you actually do.

There is another (bigger) bit of the government which checks passports (and when required visas) at the boarder. This is the Bundespolizei (based in Bonn).

Unfortunately the two groups are not always synchronized. Especially in regard to family of EU citizens, and their rights of free movement.

The right of your husband to use EU law to enter Germany comes from the Surinder Singh decision. Singh was actually somebody who was living in Ireland and wanted to move to the UK with his UK wife. I think he had even been kicked out of the UK. Read through the details at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/ . But I think the same principles apply when you are going for a short visit back to the “home countryâ€

[ca.funke]

Hi Heike,

I'm exactly in the same situation. (German / Lebanese)

The German embassy and the ministry of foreign affairs in Berlin tell different stories, depending on who you talk to.

I've heard both versions from both places.

If anyone knows, I'd be interested in the following: (We only want to travel for short trips, permanent residency is and should stay in Ireland)

- if EU-Law really applies, how can we ensure that the airline will let us board the plane? (compared to the passport-check on arrival in Germany, which may work out after some complication, boarding is time-critical. What to do if we are refused boarding due to "lack of visa" from the airlines' perspective?)

- I also have a Belgian passport (dual citizenship). However, in this regard I was told that while in Germany I am considered "German" only, and cannot claim any rights from my Belgian nationality. --> Thus, if your Irish son also has a German passport, then this might not be an option?

- What happens, if we fly to Belgium and then cross the land-border? There are no checkpoints, I would just like to know how "criminal" this is, should we be "caught"?

- I asked the UK-embassy in Dublin, if we need a visa for the UK. They say that Directive/2004/38/EC does not apply in the UK as they have an exemption from it, and we need "entry clearance" for the UK. Is this true? (We would love to be able to shop in IKEA in Belfast, without taking a day off to apply for the visa before)


Thanks for any possible answers to the above.

Christian

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

- if EU-Law really applies, how can we ensure that the airline will let us board the plane? (compared to the passport-check on arrival in Germany, which may work out after some complication, boarding is time-critical. What to do if we are refused boarding due to "lack of visa" from the airlines' perspective?)

This is a difficult question. You do have a valid Residence Card so they should let you on board. You can also consider having seperate bookings. The EU citizen checks baggage. The non-EU checks in online and if they deny the non-EU citizen boarding then they have to remove the bags from the plane.

- I also have a Belgian passport (dual citizenship). However, in this regard I was told that while in Germany I am considered "German" only, and cannot claim any rights from my Belgian nationality. --> Thus, if your Irish son also has a German passport, then this might not be an option?

I do not see why this should matter. It is your wife who has the right of free movement so long as she is married to you, and you are exercising treaty rights as a German (or Belgian) citizen. And she has a Residence Card!

- What happens, if we fly to Belgium and then cross the land-border? There are no checkpoints, I would just like to know how "criminal" this is, should we be "caught"?

I do not see any reason to do this, as the Germans working the border generally seem quite aware of the law. But there is nothing wrong with flying to any EU member state, including Belgium or the Netherlands or Greece, even if you plan to stay there for only a few hours before going off somewhere else.

- I asked the UK-embassy in Dublin, if we need a visa for the UK. They say that Directive/2004/38/EC does not apply in the UK as they have an exemption from it, and we need "entry clearance" for the UK. Is this true? (We would love to be able to shop in IKEA in Belfast, without taking a day off to apply for the visa before)

What exactly did you ask them and what exactly did they answer? Directive 2004/38/EC has been implemented in the UK. They just don't like respecting Residence Cards issued by other member states. You can get the EEA family permit. Apply for it and explain that you want to go to Ikea in Belfast several times over the next 6 months. It should be quickly issued. If you need to travel without having the proper visa, then be sure to travel with your marriage certificate and both passports, and carry a copy of Directive 2004/38/EC

[cantaro]

I think there is some misunderstanding here as to whom the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC really apply. Generally they apply to any citizen of a participating country (and their relatives) in relation to any participating country other than that of which they are a citizen. Therefore, if Heike goes to Germany, and she is a German citizen, the Directive does not apply to her and her relatives. Now, if the son is Irish citizen but not German citizen, the Directive does apply to him, and by extension might apply to his father. But as someone else suggested, I would not expect a smooth ride based on this, not at the border, and especially not when trying to board an airplane.

Off topic: Heike, if you were a German citizen at the time of your son's birth, he is probably a German citizen as well, and can get a German passport. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nat ... man_parent which also has references to the relevant legal texts.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think there is some misunderstanding here as to whom the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC really apply. Generally they apply to any citizen of a participating country (and their relatives) in relation to any participating country other than that of which they are a citizen. Therefore, if Heike goes to Germany, and she is a German citizen, the Directive does not apply to her and her relatives.

In general you are correct. And that is definitely true if a German citizen resident in the US marries a Canadian and they want to move back to Germany.

But if a EU citizen has been exercising treaty rights in another EU member state, then the ECJ decision Surinder Singh (Case C-370/90 The Queen v Immigration Appeal Tribunal et Surinder Singh, ex parte Secretary of State for Home Department) means that the family member of the EU citizen can use EU law (specifically Directive 2004/38/EC) because to not allow this would impeded the free movement rights of the EU citizen.

In this case the person who posted the message is in fact a German exercising treaty rights in Ireland. They wish to continue to avail themselves of their right to free movement in the EU for a short visit home to Germany.

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/ for more details

[ca.funke]

Hi directive,

following, please find my email to the UK-visas-office, and their reply.

I guess the first 2 paragraphs were inserted "individually", while the following paragraphs are standard-reply:

#####################################
#####################################
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian <ca.funke@visatrouble.xyz>
Date: Jan 25, 2008 8:03 PM
Subject: Visa for UK necessary?
To: complaint.consular.services@fco.gov.uk


Dear Sir or madam,

together with my Lebanese wife I (German and Belgian citizen) live in Dublin, Ireland.

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 5, Paragraph 2: (attached and available as link)

(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 350048.pdf)

provides that entry to all EU-countries has to be possible without a visa, provided my wife is in possession of an EU-residency-card (in this case an Irish one), a passport, and is accompanying me.

###############################
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
###############################


However, the UK-embassy in Dublin advises that, even for short-term visits, a seperate UK-Visa is necessary.

The EU-country of Malta confirmed to me, in writing, that they agree with my line of thought. Entry into Malta is visa-free for my wife.

Could you please specify why the embassy maintains that a UK-Visa is necessary?

Thanks and regards from Dublin, Christian


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <PublicVisaEnqs@fco.gov.uk>
Date: Jan 29, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: FW: Visa for UK necessary?
To: ca.funke@visatrouble.xyz


Your message has been passed to UKvisas for reply as we are
responsible for the United Kingdom's visa operation overseas.

I confirm that your wife requires entry clearance (see below) in order to
enter the UK. The UK, like Ireland, has claimed exemption from the
directive to which you refer.

Nationals of the European Union (EU) have the right of free movement and residence throughout the EEA. As far as the UK is concerned, EEA nationals are free to enter the UK subject to only a brief passport or identity card check to establish that they are EEA nationals. However, Non-EEA nationals continue to be subject to full immigration controls at the frontier.

The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 (the Regulations) takes account of the EEA agreement and formally implements the Free Movement of Persons Directive (2004/38/EC).
The Regulations set out the rights of residence for EEA nationals and their families who come to the UK in various capacities, including as workers, self-employed people, self sufficient people or students. It contains provisions which apply to family members who are themselves not EEA nationals.

More information will be found in leaflet INF 18 on our website. From
this you will see that your wife will require a visa if entering the UK
separately from you but may apply for an 'EEA Family Permit' if
accompanying you to this country (or joining you here).

An application for an EEA Family Permit should be made on form VAF 5, which may be printed-out from our website.

The application should then be submitted to a UK visa-issuing office in the country in which the applicant is lawfully present (the permit cannot be obtained in the UK). A list of these offices will be found on our website.

A straight-forward application for an EEA Family Permit will normally be processed speedily. The permit is issued free of charge.

The permit has a validity of six months from date of issue. The holder of such a permit wishing to stay in the UK for longer than this should then apply to the Home Office (www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk) for a UK residence permit.



Sent by:
Public Enquiries , UKvisas, London SW1A 2AH
Web-site: www.ukvisas.gov.uk

[Heike]

Off topic: Heike, if you were a German citizen at the time of your son's birth, he is probably a German citizen as well, and can get a German passport. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nat ... man_parent which also has references to the relevant legal texts.

... I have and never had any intention of him becoming German. I'm so fed up with all their stupid rules, bureaucracy, unfriendliness and especially their attitude towards my Turkish husband each time we are at border control. Don't even get me started on this
I'm glad our son is Irish...

[JAJ]

... I have and never had any intention of him becoming German. I'm so fed up with all their stupid rules, bureaucracy, unfriendliness and especially their attitude towards my Turkish husband each time we are at border control. Don't even get me started on this
I'm glad our son is Irish...

He is probably a German citizen regardless of your intention.

[cantaro]

I have and never had any intention of him becoming German. I'm so fed up with all their stupid rules, [...]

While I completely understand your attitude, it is not a question of your son becoming German, for which he would have to renounce his Irish citizenship. Most likely he already is German by virtue of being born to a German parent. The same seems to be true for the Turkish citizenship: he is most likely Turkish by virtue of being born to a Turkish parent. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_nationality_law for more information. That means that your son has three nationalities and can carry three different passports.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I'm German with a Turkish husband who just got his 4EUFam card today. We both live and work in Ireland. I checked Germany's visa rules and it states that spouses of EU-nationals but NOT Germans who have this 4EUFam card do not need a visa if they are travelling together.

Do you have a web link to where it says this in Germany’s visa rules? Or the exact text of this statement?

[ca.funke]

Do you have a web link to where it says this in Germany’s visa rules? Or the exact text of this statement?

I can show you my email to the ministry of foreign affairs and their answer. It's in German though...


##########################
#### my email to the ministry ####
##########################

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian <ca.funke@visatrouble.xyz>
Date: 2008/1/25
Subject: Visum für Deutschland nötig?
To: buergerservice@auswaertiges-amt.de
<mailto:buergerservice@auswaertiges-amt.de>


Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

ich lebe mit meiner libanesischen Ehefrau in Dublin.

Aus Direktive 2004/38/EC, Artikel 5, Abs. 2: (angehängt und als Link
verfügbar:)

(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 350048.pdf)

#######################
Von Familienangehörigen, die nicht die Staatsangehörigkeit eines
Mitgliedstaats besitzen, ist gemäß der Verordnung (EG) Nr. 539/2001
oder gegebenenfalls den einzelstaatlichen Rechtsvorschriften lediglich
ein Einreisevisum zu fordern. Für die Zwecke dieser Richtlinie
entbindet der Besitz einer gültigen Aufenthaltskarte gemäß Artikel 10
diese Familienangehörigen von der Visumspflicht.

Die Mitgliedstaaten treffen alle erforderlichen Maßnahmen, um diesen
Personen die Beschaffung der erforderlichen Visa zu erleichtern. Die
Visa werden so bald wie möglich nach einem beschleunigten Verfahren
unentgeltlich erteilt.
#######################

ergibt sich m.E., dass ein Visum für kurzbesuche in Deutschland
unnötig ist, wenn meine Frau über eine irische Aufenthaltskarte
verfügt und in meiner Begleitung reist.

Genau diese Anfrage wurde mir telefonisch von einem Konsularbeamten
der deutschen Botschaft zu Dublin negativ beschieden.

Können Sie hierzu bitte detailliert Stellung beziehen?

Dir maltesische Botschaft zu Dublin teilte mir schriftlich mit, dass
eine Einreise in das Schengenland Malta so möglich ist.

Gruß aus Dublin, Christian

##########################
#### answer from the ministry ####
##########################

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: clerk <clerk@auswaertiges-amt.de>
Date: 2008/2/5
Subject: Re: Visum für Deutschland nötig?
To: ca.funke@visatrouble.xyz


Auswärtiges Amt
Berlin, 5. Februar 2008
Gz.: xxx-xx-xxx-xx

Sehr geehrter ca.funke,

vielen Dank für Ihre e-Mail-Anfrage vom 05.02.2008, die an das
zuständige Referat für Visumrecht weitergeleitet wurde.

Offensichtlich liegt hier ein Interpretationsproblem vor, das ich gerne
klären möchte.

1. Wenn Sie sich als deutscher Staatsangehöriger im
EU-Gemeinschaftsgebiet (außer Deutschland) aufhalten, dann kommen Sie
als --Unionsbürger-- in den Genuß des Freizügigkeitsrechts
(Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU) in Verbindung mit Freizügigkeits-Richtlinie
2004/38/EG). Ihre Ehefrau, die libanesische Staatsangehörige und im
Besitz einer irische Aufenthaltskarte nach Artikel 10
Freizügigkeitsrichtlinie ist, hat ein von Ihnen als Unionsbürger
abgeleitetes Recht auf Freizügigkeitsberechtigung (visumfreie Einreise
in das EU-Gemeinschaftsgebiet --außer Deutschland--), wenn sie Sie auf
einer Reise z.B. nach Malta oder Frankreich -- begleitet--.

2. Halten Sie sich in Deutschland auf oder reisen z.B. besuchsweise
ein, dann gelten für Sie als deutscher Staatsangehöriger deutsche
Gesetze und somit auch das deutsche Aufenthaltsgesetz für Ihre Ehefrau,
die für einen Kurzaufenthalt von bis zu drei Monaten für Deutschland
nach Schengen-Recht visumpflichtig ist.

Ich hoffe, meine Ausführungen helfen Ihnen weiter.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Im Auftrag
Clerks Name
Auswärtiges Amt, Referat 508, Ausländer- und Visumangelegenheiten
Werderscher Markt 1, 10117 Berlin
Post: Auswärtiges Amt, 11013 Berlin
Tel.: 030 - 5000 - 1234
Fax: 030 - 5000 - 2345
E-Mail: clerk@auswaertiges-amt.de

[Heike]

I'm German with a Turkish husband who just got his 4EUFam card today. We both live and work in Ireland. I checked Germany's visa rules and it states that spouses of EU-nationals but NOT Germans who have this 4EUFam card do not need a visa if they are travelling together.

Do you have a web link to where it says this in Germany’s visa rules? Or the exact text of this statement?

Sure:

http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... =Daten.pdf

Red text on the last page.

The above email from the German department of Foreign affairs tells us exactly the same. His wife can go to any EU-Country together with him without visa - except to Germany.

Regards,
Heike

[microlab]

His wife can go to any EU-Country together with him without visa

I belive its good news.

When will others introduce this I wonder

[Heike]

His wife can go to any EU-Country together with him without visa

I belive its good news.

When will others introduce this I wonder

I don't think that it is good news if a spouse of a German citizen still needs a visa to go to Germany. I have a family and friends in Germany who we want to visit..... So, this would be most of the travelling we would do in the EU.

[microlab]

I don't think that it is good news

Sorry, I should have put that is good news for people with 4EUFam cards.
If one is married to a German that`s the bummer.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Just out of curiosity, what are the terms under which the Germans would issue the visa. Is it free? What documentation would they require?

I think you should write back to them and make them aware of the ECJ case of Surinder Singh http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/
Suggest they they check with their legal group for advice to ensure that they give a considered reply.

Be sure to point out that you are presently exercing your EU treaty rights in Ireland, and so when you return to Germany you are entitled to do that under EU law.

[dsab85]

Being German myself, I am not sure why that is such a problem. Slight inconvenience...yes, but not really a problem.

I much prefer having a valid Schengen Visa in my wifes passport then having to argue with the Airline Staff every time to let us board a plane to any of the Schengen States. (and that's often enough the real problem) If you are married getting the visa as a the spouse of a German citizen is a bliss. Sent in the application via mail, provide a passport picture, both passports and the marriage certificate and they will issue a visa free of charge within a few days (usually 3 to 5 days). Usually the German Embassy issues a 1 year multiple entry Visa to Spouses of german citizens.

Before I am not 100% certain that all the Schengen states have implemented the Directive properly, and that all the airlines are aware of our rights I won't go anywhere without making sure I have a visa. Saves just so much hassle. There is nothing worse then going away and having to deal and argue with some immigration officer who is not aware of our rights.

But that's juts my opinion.

[microlab]

Before I am not 100% certain that all the Schengen states have implemented the Directive properly, and that all the airlines are aware of our rights I won't go anywhere without making sure I have a visa. Saves just so much hassle. There is nothing worse then going away and having to deal and argue with some immigration officer who is not aware of our rights.

Spot on