Naturalization after PR - Shocking Revelations from NCS

[London-er]

I would like to share today’s experience with everyone on this forum. Please disregard the volume and read carefully.
Today @ 09:15 I went with my friend and his wife to NCS Redbridge for naturalization application submission. He is Non EU and his wife is EU member. I decided to go with them out of curiosity because mine will also be due around July this year.
In a nutshell, my friend’s 5yrs Residence Card expired 10 Sept 2008. He applied for PR Sept 2008 and his application was delayed in the HO for about 1yr and 3 months. His PR was issued 14 December 2009. Going by 6 yrs rule he should have acquired his PR automatically from 09 Sept 2009 with or without the PR sticker.
He was told by the NCS he is not qualified to apply for naturalization in his own rights until 13 December 2010 (going by his PR Sticker). I told the officer it is different if you are applying under EU rules. She said yes for EU member and NOT their non-EU family members. Alternatively, He would have to provide evidence that his wife ( EU member) has been exercising treaty in the UK for a continues period of 6yrs. (said 6yrs P60s would be ok ). He was then giving another appointment next month.
I called UKBA as soon as we left the NCS office to verify this info and was told by the UKBA call centre staff that the NCS was right, that He should go by the PR sticker date to apply in his own rights regardless of delay caused by the HO or will have to apply with evidence showing that his wife has exercised treaty for 6yrs.
Please does anyone know anything contrary to this or has anyone applied in their own right before the date on the sticker. I find it difficult to believe the delays caused by the HO should be @ the applicant’s expense.

[Backer]

Why are you so surprised?

Many non EUs who applied and recieved ILR by post have endured processing times of (at least) several months and when they apply for naturalization the 12 months counted from passport was stamped with ILR and not the application . . .

[mrlookforward]

NCS was right.

[London-er]

Why are you so surprised?

Many non EUs who applied and recieved ILR by post have endured processing times of (at least) several months and when they apply for naturalization the 12 months counted from passport was stamped with ILR and not the application . . .

I am surprised based on what I have read from this forum regarding this issue. That you dont have to wait, you should have acquired PR status automatically at the expiration of your initial 5yrs, you need another 1yr ( 6yrs together) to apply for BC

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=49662

[Obie]

Naturalisation rules are governed by National Immigration rules as opposed to EU legislation.

In actual fact, the friend you mentioned in this scenerio, automatically acquire PR in SEP 2008, and becomes eligible for Naturalisation in SEP 2009.


Under community law, your friend acquire PR automatically without necessarily needing the PR sticker endorsed on his passport.


When it comes to Naturalisation, this is outside the EU jurisdiction, and the memberstates are free to set the criteria that applicants are expected to meet in order to qualify.

As PR Sticker is not compulsory to have on one's passport, the UK cannot demand you get it before you can apply for naturalisation, but they can certainly demand that you show evidence that the EU national on whom you are depending, has been exercising treaty rights in the UK for a period of 5 years. This is perfectly reasonable. 6 Years is certainly not reasonable, as when you obtained the PR after 5 years, you become eligible to apply in your own right in the 6th year.

The rules says 1 year after obtaining PR, which equates to 5 years of treaty right with your EEA partner, and another year without them or in your own right.

Therefore NCS was wrong to demand evidence of 6 years, as once PR is obtained , you don't depend on the EU national for Naturalisation.

It is only marriage to a British national that changes the qualification period, all other category are on the same rules.

1. 5 Years lawful residence

2. Holder of ILR or PR

3. PR or ILR must have been acquired for a period of 12 months on the day of application.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[mrlookforward]

In a nutshell, my friend’s 5yrs Residence Card expired 10 Sept 2008. He applied for PR Sept 2008 and his application was delayed in the HO for about 1yr and 3 months. His PR was issued 14 December 2009. Going by 6 yrs rule he should have acquired his PR automatically from 09 Sept 2009 with or without the PR sticker.

Obie, your post was insightful and correct and clarfies many doubts people might have.
On the other hand, I think NCS was right in a way. How does NCS know if the applicant who is non-eu partner, has acquired PR if they cant produce documents of eu national excercising treaty rights for the period?

All NCS could see was a PR sticker issued on 14 Dec 2009, and applicant not providing documents for first 5 years of last 6 years, of their spouse exercising treaty rights, they refused to entertain the application.

If the applicant showed you a passport with a PR sticker dated 14 dec 2009, and provided no other documents then how would you personally establish whether the applicant attained PR on some other date in past?

No doubt if the applicant had applied to UKBA direct by post, this problem wouldnt have occured.

[vinny]

I agree with Obie.

After PR is attained, then 15(2) is effective, so only 5 years proof of exercising treaty rights should be required for PR. However, proof of satisfying the residential requirements is also necessary for citizenship.

[Obie]

In a nutshell, my friend’s 5yrs Residence Card expired 10 Sept 2008. He applied for PR Sept 2008 and his application was delayed in the HO for about 1yr and 3 months. His PR was issued 14 December 2009. Going by 6 yrs rule he should have acquired his PR automatically from 09 Sept 2009 with or without the PR sticker.

I think your statement is not quite correct. The person in the scenerio above, obtained PR or the right to PR on the 10th Sept 2008, or even before, depending on when the person he/she is dependant or married to came to the UK and started exercising treaty right with your friend.

In actual fact the 5 years needed to qualify for Permanent Residence, starts ticking from the time a marriage was contracted with an EEA national exercising a treaty right in the UK, in the company of the non-EEA national, who is seeking to capitalise on these right.

6 years only applies to Naturalisation and not PR, as under community law, a person qualifies for PR after five years of lawful residence in the UK in accordance with Directive 2004/38EC.

Thanks to Vinny for correctly pointing out that the continuous unbroken residence criteria has to be met.

The non EEA national family member of an EEA national is allowed to be absent for 6 months in a year in the 5 years leading to acquisation of PR, or even a one of 12 months absence will not affect PR or Natuarlisation application. Once PR has been obtained, they need to meet the unbroken residence requirement in the 12 months leading to their qualification period for Naturalisation.

[mrlookforward]

Yes, no doubt about the critieria, which obie and vinny have mentioned.

I am mentioning this particular case. When applicant doesnt provide any proof whatsoever, apart from a PR sticker dated December 2009, how can NCS establish that the applicant attained PR before a date prior to December 2009?

[Obie]

I don't think myself or Vinny are disputing the fact that someone applying for naturalisation, should be legally required to show evidence of the EU national family member they are depending on, having exercised treaty right in the UK for 5 year, especially in cases where there is no Residence card or PR. To the contrary.

This is more so important, if the person is claiming a retrospective lawful right of residence before Residence Card application or PR application was confirmed.

What i think we don't agree with, is the requirements for 6 years of EU treaty right for the EEA national to be provided, before NCS can accept an application. This is simply wrong.

Only 5 years of residence from the EEA national is legally required, and the 12 month following the 5 years, continuous/unbroken residence, has to be proven by the Non-EEA national who is applying and not the EEA national, through whose rights he/she obtained PR.

I hope i have made things a bit clearer.

We are not quite in total disagreement, just the last 12 months. Bear that in mind.

[mrlookforward]

Obie,
You are just totally missing the point. this discussion or the query by OP was not regarding what the requirements of naturalisation are.

You are at NCS, someone comes in to apply for BC, based on their claim that they have lived in uk for 6 years as spouse of an eea citizen.

If they have a PR sticker which is 12 months old, no problem.
But if thats not the case, what documents would you like to see?

NCS are not home office caseworkers and they do not have to be experts. They provide a basic service where all the requirements are clearly met. The applicant mentioned in OPs post didnt have any proofs apart from the pr sticker.

Anyway, I think we will keep going round in circles.

[Obie]

The naturalisation rules are simply.

There is no provision for six years of marriage to an EU national.

The rules says 5 years of Lawful residence, a PR or ILR, and evidence that it was acquired 12 months prior to applying. And evidence that the person has not lived outside the UK for more than 3 months in the 12 months before qualification period.


NCS can request evidence of 5 years of treaty rights in the UK, if the non-EU is claiming rights before a time not stated on his/her passport, or if there is reason to believe he stayed out of the UK for more that 450 days in the 5 years period.

You have to remember that residence is counted from the day, one marries and start living with an EEA national in the UK, and PR or residence card issue date is not strictly speaking relevant.

The only concern for the NCS is to ascertain whether or not the person has lived with the EEA national for 5 continuous years in the UK, save for 6 months in a year or a one of 12 months for pregnancy or Military placement oversea. This will indicate they have acquired the right to PR.

After the 5 years, the one year is in their own right, and they are no longer dependant on the EU national.

[mrlookforward]

Obie,

you have explained one thing 3 times in three posts and we all do know this already, and you know that we know it, lol.

No one asked for the requirements of Naturalisation. It was NCS perspective that was under question and not the actual requirements.

Anyway, thats enough for now I think, lol

[Obie]

I am glad we are in line with the rules.

In regards to NCS, one would expect them to be trained to a certain degree of proficiency, to prevent this gross violation of the rules, or unnecessary hardship and delays on applicant.

I will blame this problem on lack of training, and nothing else.

Proper and legal guidance has to be set, and training has to be provided to a high degree on the implementation of those guidance.

[London-er]

Obie,
You are just totally missing the point. this discussion or the query by OP was not regarding what the requirements of naturalisation are.

You are at NCS, someone comes in to apply for BC, based on their claim that they have lived in uk for 6 years as spouse of an eea citizen.

If they have a PR sticker which is 12 months old, no problem.
But if thats not the case, what documents would you like to see?

NCS are not home office caseworkers and they do not have to be experts. They provide a basic service where all the requirements are clearly met. The applicant mentioned in OPs post didnt have any proofs apart from the pr sticker.
Anyway, I think we will keep going round in circles.

Pls be fair mrlookforward, do you actually believe it yourself that someone with NCS appointment took with Him only a PR sticker
The fact was, He was dismissed as not eligible to apply on his own rights. He had every document required for naturalization, all his p60’s and most recent payslips. In fact his wife’s P60s are also available but no one knew it could be required as it was during his PR application so they left them @ home since He believed to be applying on his own rights. Now he lost time on an appointment he had waited weeks for.

[mrlookforward]

My apologies if I misread, but the point remains. For a non-eea national to apply for BC, proof of his/her eea spouse exercising treaty rights during the qualifying period is required. Non-eea nationals proof just on their own are not enough, or should I say irrelevant in the absence of eea nationals proofs.

As you have mentioned, he produced his own P60s, and PR sticker dated December 2009, hence there was no way for NCS to establish that he qualified in his own right, and NCS was right not to entertain the application.
If for example his PR sticker was dated May 2009, then these documents would have been sufficient.

As I mentioned before, there is no doubt that if he makes direct application to UKBA via post, there would be no problem whatsoever.

[Breaker29]

Hi All members, it's a very interresting topic here and I would like to share my experience with you.

I had the same experience as Londoner's friend.
I had and appointmeent with the NCS, single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007), please diregard the gap, it's along stroy.
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone.

PS: The gentlement told me that it is the first time he had an application like mine, and to be honest it didn't border me as I predicted to face this sort of situation.

[petra]

single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007),
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone

So what is your situation now?
Are they considering your application if you send all documents or waiting for feb 2011?

[JAJ]

My apologies if I misread, but the point remains. For a non-eea national to apply for BC, proof of his/her eea spouse exercising treaty rights during the qualifying period is required. Non-eea nationals proof just on their own are not enough, or should I say irrelevant in the absence of eea nationals proofs.

As you have mentioned, he produced his own P60s, and PR sticker dated December 2009, hence there was no way for NCS to establish that he qualified in his own right, and NCS was right not to entertain the application.

NCS don't make a decision on the application.

[Breaker29]

single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007),
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone

So what is your situation now?
Are they considering your application if you send all documents or waiting for feb 2011?

yes I did submit my application with all the documents requested throught the NCS on that day and I had a knowlegment letter, I'm just waiting for the decision. I know for fact that some applicants have submited week after me, and they already have aproval letter. So I'm anxiously waitng for the answer, 6 weeks to day.

[petra]

single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007),
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone

So what is your situation now?
Are they considering your application if you send all documents or waiting for feb 2011?

yes I did submit my application with all the documents requested throught the NCS on that day and I had a knowlegment letter, I'm just waiting for the decision. I know for fact that some applicants have submited week after me, and they already have aproval letter. So I'm anxiously waitng for the answer, 6 weeks to day.

So in short [for my own understanding] you could have applied even in say 12/2008 for Naturalisation with all the supporting documents which you have sent now.

[Breaker29]

single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007),
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to on the phone

So what is your situation now?
Are they considering your application if you send all documents or waiting for feb 2011?

yes I did submit my application with all the documents requested throught the NCS on that day and I had a knowlegment letter, I'm just waiting for the decision. I know for fact that some applicants have submited week after me, and they already have aproval letter. So I'm anxiously waitng for the answer, 6 weeks to day.

So in short [for my own understanding] you could have applied even in say 12/2008 for Naturalisation with all the supporting documents which you have sent now.

Yep I could have done it that way, but didn't know the new legislation untill too late...Busy life and selly me.

[London-er]

Hi All members, it's a very interresting topic here and I would like to share my experience with you.

I had the same experience as Londoner's friend.
I had and appointmeent with the NCS, single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007), please diregard the gap, it's along stroy.
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone.

PS: The gentlement told me that it is the first time he had an application like mine, and to be honest it didn't border me as I predicted to face this sort of situation.

Hi Breaker29, any news on your Naturalisation yet Please update us on the latest

[Breaker29]

Hi Londoner !!!
Not yet ! It's a big love story with the HO , so I won't boder I'm as clean as clear water , so no rush, they can take all the time they need.

Hi All members, it's a very interresting topic here and I would like to share my experience with you.

I had the same experience as Londoner's friend.
I had and appointmeent with the NCS, single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007), please diregard the gap, it's along stroy.
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone.

PS: The gentlement told me that it is the first time he had an application like mine, and to be honest it didn't border me as I predicted to face this sort of situation.

Hi Breaker29, any news on your Naturalisation yet Please update us on the latest

[beeba]

single application based on 5 years + 1 with a PR, spouse of and EEA national.(automatic PR status from 11/2007),
My PR isued on 24/02/2010 and applyed for BC 13/04/10. The nice gentlement, after he called UKBA, told me that I do not qualify to apply untill 24/02/11, I showed him the famous page No 5 of the AN guide and I asked him to call again and speak to a senior member to clarify the situation, so he did, so later he asked me provide my spouse's P60's to cover 6 years work in the UK , the Mariage cetificate, and spouse's passport that I had with me at that time.
As he said this part of EU law mixed with the British Law for naturalisation is bit grey, so to avoid any chance for beeing refused I should provide as many document as possibe, because people at the HO who deal with the Naturalisation can be like the fisrt persone he spoke to the phone

So what is your situation now?
Are they considering your application if you send all documents or waiting for feb 2011?

yes I did submit my application with all the documents requested throught the NCS on that day and I had a knowlegment letter, I'm just waiting for the decision. I know for fact that some applicants have submited week after me, and they already have aproval letter. So I'm anxiously waitng for the answer, 6 weeks to day.

@ Breaker29...I think you have successfully done it. Is this your timeline?

NCS: Bromley -Kent
Date of submission or posting : 13/04/2010
CRITERIA - : 5 years residency + 1 year PR
Date of debit of debit/credit card : 21/04/10
Date of receipt of acknowledgement : 24/04/10
Date of receipt of approval : 23/06/10 approval dated 15/06/10
Date of Ceremony : 05/07/10
Nationality : North African
Date of appln. for passport : pending
Method used : pending
Date of Receipt : pending