My Indonesian girlfriend and our son.

[Indolover]

Hello all.

I am a 44yr old British male citizen who, 7 months ago, returned from living in Indonesia for 5 years. I would have been back to the UK a lot sooner, only I suffered a bad motorcycling accident in March 2009, and was stuck in Indonesia for 2.5 years after that, having one operation after the other, 5 in total - none of which were really up to European standard, and I ended up giving up the life I had in Indonesia, to head back to England in the hope of having at least a half-decent operation to finally fix my gammy leg.

Now, this is where it becomes slightly complicated. September 2010 saw the birth of my son with my then Indonesian girlfriend/fiance in Indonesia. We had planned to marry while I was there, but due to one thing and another (without going into too much detail here), failed to accomplish that at the time before I left Indonesia.

Now that I am back in the UK, jobless, waiting a serious operation on my leg, and being supported financially by my parent, we, my Mother and I, need to sponsor my girlfriend/fiance and our son for a tourist or fiance visa to the UK, with the aim of marrying within 6 months. Admittedly, my own personal financial situation is shamefully embarrassing right at the minute due to my temporary disability, but my dear Mother, already 80 years of age, so desires to meet her new Grandson and future daughter-in-law.

I've been relatively brief here, but time is of the essence, so I'm wondering if anyone could possibly offer us any pointers or guidance as to the best course to take for any degree of success, please?

Many thanks in advance.

[Lucapooka]

To meet the requirements of the fiancee visa application, you will need to provide adequate maintenance and accommodation but your mother or other relative or friend could stand in for that. The child is British and does not need a visa (a UK passport instead) but still needs to be factored into the maintenance equation. Assuming you will be staying in free(ish) accommodation by virtue of your mother, the maintenance you need to show for a family of your size would be 730 pounds a month and that would be just for you, your fiancee and your child; not considering your mother's needs.

How much income or savings does your mother have?

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... oposed-cp/

[Indolover]

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I have some further information and questions.

My original planning was to try for a 6-month tourist visa as a kind of trial, to see how they like it here, and then perhaps take a trip to Europe after the 6 months to then make a fiance/spousal visa. Could that work?

According to current Indonesian law, if I was already married to his Mother, our son would be dual-nationality, Indonesian and English, until he reaches age 18. However, since we are as yet unwed, I'm not sure on that or indeed what, if at all, we could do to make a British passport for him....especially being as we're so far apart at the moment. As things stand at the moment, our son just has an Indonesian passport. Althought I've yet to marry his Mum, she had the common sense so our son is using my surname as his own on his Indonesian passport, as well as on his birth certificate. I feel a lot better marrying her in Britain rather than in Indonesia (been there, done that before, didn't work).

'Assuming' we will be staying at my Mum's big house at least until we are married and my leg is really on the mend, I was a little shocked at your figure of £730pcm....where does that come from? Really, I'm sure that we could live quite comfortably and happily on less than that, considering there'd be no rent to pay. My Mother's house is in a very rural part of East Anglia and life in these part is relatively cheap as compared to a big city like London, for instance. I'd be grateful if you or someone could elaborate on that figure.
For obvious reasons, it would not be right for me to divulge personal details about my Mother's savings in a public forum, I'm sure you understand.

[Lucapooka]

Check this link to confirm that your child is British by descent, even though you are not married to the mother. All that is necessary is that he applies for a British passport.

I was a little shocked at your figure of £730pcm....where does that come from?

I am sure you could live on less than this but that may not satisfy the visa requirements that demand a family of your size has the equivalent sum to that of mean-tested benefits after accommodation has been accounted for (so you can see that your free digs is not really relevant to this sum). I can't see the visa being granted with a sum less than this. In lieu of having no regular income in this amount or more, a source of savings (liquid) will also suffice. I suggest anything less than 20K might be a problem but there is some room for flexibility here if there are good and realistic employment prospects for the future.

The 730 comes from themonthly amount of means-tested benefit an adult couple with one dependent child would be granted.

The 20K savings is this amount x 24 months (the life of the visa) and with some extra to cover the cost of visa applications and flights to the UK.

I reiterate that these amounts apply only to you and your family and would be required in addition to whatever money your mother needs to support herself. These are not absolutes and the eventual decision to grant the visa may be an arbitrary one based on a figure of much less but I'm giving you a general impression of where you might stand. People have been refused for not having the monthly income equivalent of means-tested benefit or, as an alternative to this, an amount of savings that equates to this sum amortized over two years.

[Indolover]

I'll be brutally frank with you....My ex-Indonesian wife left me high and dry in Indonesia almost 3 years ago after my motorcycle accident. She brought in another woman, my now fiance, as a 'substitute', to look after me during my recuperation after said accident. My legal wife played that game for 2 years, having me looked after by other girls, all the time she went gallavanting off all over the country at my expense, sending frequent nasty texts and emails to us.
Not being an expert on Indonesian law or keeping it in my trousers, it wasn't long before one of these females was in the pudding club. My missing legal wife was rather upset on discovery of this and pulled a few strings with her friends in the police to see I was thrown in the big house for a year. Adultery is a jailable offence in Indonesia, apparently. I suspect part of her reasoning for doing this was so I couldn't be with my new fiance and son even when she was to give birth. Bear in mind too, through all this time, my leg was still broken and at various stages of infection too, but that didn't matter to my wife, hellbent on revenge!

Naturally, being in a prison in a SE Asian corrupt country, paying through the nose for life, as well as supporting a pregnant fiance and son whilst still in jail, and up to now, has been a total drain on my finances. My release from that jail in July 2011 faced me with immediate deportation from Indonesia, so returning any time soon might pose a problem; but nevertheless, I have been religiously sending my fiance and son money every month until now. Obviously, this situation can't go on indefinitely, which is why I am striving to bring my fiance and son to England now ASAP.
My last post I mentioned about bringing them here on a trial 6month tourist visa, as either my Mother or I finding anything anywhere even close to 20k in the near future is a no-no, and until I know how long the operations and following treatments for the bone transplant in my leg are going to take, my work prospects are unknown. They say, all told, it could take 2 years until I'm fit again, able to walk.
I assume my fiance would need to apply for my son's British passport at the British Consulate in Jakarta?

As an afterthought, my Mother's planning is to sell this large house and buy a smaller one, so there would be quite a large sum of money available to help us. But of course, that whole process could take a few months - another reason we first wanted to consider a 6month visit visa before trying for a longer fiance/spousal visa. Would you consider this course of action doable, any suggestions?


Once again, my thanks for your continued invaluable help.

[Lucapooka]

Are you actually divorced yet? Your fiancee can't apply for a settlement visa unless you are divorced or, at the very least, not until your divorce proceedings are well underway and you have a decree nici with a view to a full decree absolute in a reasonable period.

Given the history and circumstances it might be very difficult for her to be granted a visit visa (due to risk of non-return) and so the fiancee settlement may be your only option (unfortunately with all the conditions previously mentioned).

I think it's good to make soundings on this forum but you really need to seek private professional advice. Any decent immigration adviser should be able to pick over your situation and make the best of what options are available.

[Indolover]

Are you actually divorced yet? Your fiancee can't apply for a settlement visa unless you are divorced or, at the very least, not until your divorce proceedings are well underway and you have a decree nici with a view to a full decree absolute in a reasonable period.

Is it not true, a Muslim is permitted 4 wives, though is allowed to bring just one to the UK at a time, or was I misinformed?
The whole marriage was a Muslim do, and as far as my (ex) wife is concerned and has said, the marriage is over. Maybe on the religious aspect, it's already divorce, but on a legal standpoint, I'm not 100% sure. We married in a mosque in Indonesia, and to my certain knowledge, the marriage was never registered in the UK. So, any such divorce should, hopefully, not be an issue as far as the UK authorities are concerned?
To my knowledge, from a mutual friend, my (ex)wife is already planning to remarry with an American and is uncontactable by me, whereabouts or address unknown. I have already approached lawyers in the UK and the Indonesian Embassy in London, who both have said they'd need my (ex)wife's address....such a difficult situation.

[vinny]

SET14 - Polygamous / potential polygamous marriages

[Lucapooka]

We married in a mosque in Indonesia, and to my certain knowledge, the marriage was never registered in the UK. So, any such divorce should, hopefully, not be an issue as far as the UK authorities are concerned?

If the marriage was legitmate and legal in Indonesia, it will be recognised by the UK. The UK, in any case, does not register overseas marriages but it does recognise their legitimacy as though it were a UK marriage so the fact that the relevant UK authorities were not informed does not help the situation. If you choose not to mention that you were married on the visa application form and this is discovered the visa will be refused at the time or may be revoked later. Additionally, even if the visa were granted, a subsequent marriage in the UK would be considered bigamous; you mentioned polygamous marriage being permitted and that may be so, but certainly not in the UK where you intend to marry. I think it's better to sort this out beforehand rather than add one more potential problem to your already long list. It seems your lawyers agree if they are already tracking your wife and I can't imagine any other lawyer or adviser suggesting you do otherwise. She should have no objections if she intends to remarry herself.

[Indolover]

We married in a mosque in Indonesia, and to my certain knowledge, the marriage was never registered in the UK. So, any such divorce should, hopefully, not be an issue as far as the UK authorities are concerned?

If the marriage was legitmate and legal in Indonesia, it will be recognised by the UK. The UK, in any case, does not register overseas marriages but it does recognise their legitimacy as though it were a UK marriage so the fact that the relevant UK authorities were not informed does not help the situation. If you choose not to mention that you were married on the visa application form and this is discovered the visa will be refused at the time or may be revoked later. Additionally, even if the visa were granted, a subsequent marriage in the UK would be considered bigamous; you mentioned polygamous marriage being permitted and that may be so, but certainly not in the UK where you intend to marry. I think it's better to sort this out beforehand rather than add one more potential problem to your already long list. It seems your lawyers agree if they are already tracking your wife and I can't imagine any other lawyer or adviser suggesting you do otherwise. She should have no objections if she intends to remarry herself.

Thankyou for all your points, and they've been duly noted. I agree everything you've pointed out to me, but needless to say, none of this makes my situation any easier. Still, it's better to know the proper legalities of the things we face, so thanks for the information.
I was wondering if you could possibly offer some advice relating to making a British passport for our son. I've just spoken to his Mother, but she is confused and doesn't know how to even begin to go about it. She thinks the problem is that, even though my son takes my surname on his birth certificate, there is no mention that I am the Father on the birth certificate, as we're not married. Does she need to actually go to the British Consulate in Jakarta and bring her son with her (very difficult) or can she somehow do a postal application from her own city? Do you know which forms she would need?
I'm sure to have further questions later, but this is a start, if you'd be so helpful. Again, my thanks.

[Lucapooka]

Without a local BC with your name as father it is going to be difficult but not impossible and with you in the UK rather than Indonesia it's yet more difficult. You will have to go back to the local courts to amend this (if that is permitted) and get a British Consular BC that carries your name. You will then have to apply for the passport in Hong Kong (via postal service). There is plenty of information on the UK in Indonesia website on these issues but perhaps you can see the urgent need for legal assistance in this entire situation, especially if your fiancee is not savvy to these issues.

[Indolover]

Without a local BC with your name as father it is going to be difficult but not impossible and with you in the UK rather than Indonesia it's yet more difficult. You will have to go back to the local courts to amend this (if that is permitted) and get a British Consular BC that carries your name. You will then have to apply for the passport in Hong Kong (via postal service). There is plenty of information on the UK in Indonesia website on these issues but perhaps you can see the urgent need for legal assistance in this entire situation, especially if your fiancee is not savvy to these issues.

Almost wish I'd never asked I'm not sure on the exact current laws there, but at least recently, the law was amended so that the child now has civil ties with the Father (up until the law was amended, the child only had civil ties with the Mother if unmarried). I don't know if it's the same now, but it always used to be, if the Mother was unmarried, then ONLY her name would be on the birth certificate, and the Father declared unknown. But like you say, maybe specialised legal advice would be best....not sure how easy that's going to be on legal aid (lawyers have already told me I won't be able to get legal aid to track down my legal wife if I don't know her address), so the situation seems very very difficult. Would you know if I'd have to be present in the Indonesian court to have the birth certificate adju$ted or could that be wholly undertaken by my fiancee?

[Indolover]

Hi all,
It has been over two years since I posted on this forum, and a further over two years since I've met my Indonesian fiancee or our son, who is now approaching his fourth birthday. Although almost seven thousand miles apart, we are still together and in regular contact by telephone three or four times a week.
I have undergone several operations and bone grafts on my leg and am now on the mend, although considered disabled.
My financial situation is now considerabley better and have around £10K in my account, and receive around £1K/month in benefits.
My finacee is now badgering me more than ever to come and visit for six months on either a tourist/family visit visa for a trial visit to me here in East Anglia, England, to see if living together will actually work out. I would have had more money in the bank, but I have been supporting them for the past three years, thanks to Western Union, bless them. Embarrassingly, my now 82 year old Mother is still supporting me, so that I am to support my 'family' in Indonesia. I give my Mother the money to send my fiancee and son, as | don't want to break the law sending them money myself.
If anyone recalls, when I first started posting on this forum, I was seeking a divorce from my now ex-wife. The divorce is now final and I have all the documents (in Indonesian) to verify that. I know I have to have those legally translated into English and make an appointment with the authorities here to make a document to say I am free to marry, but there is no immediate rush for this, as we have no plans to marry on their trial visit this time, assuming my visa applications are successful.
My son still only has an Indonesian passport and birth cerificate without my name on it, as it's been very difficult for my fiancee to visit the Brith Consulate in Jakarta to try to make a UK passport for our son. I just know what to suggest to her about that, as we are still unmarried.....so, I don't know if it is legally possible for her to make an UK Passport for our son yet (does anyone know if it 'is' legally doable?)
Apart from my still-healing leg and my cronic back-pain, I suffer from depression and anxiety from being apart from my family for so long, but I'm not sure how long my level of benefits will last, as it's in the process of changing from 'Disablilty Living Allowance' to 'Personal Independence Payment'; so, I'm eager to make visas and transport them both over here whilst I am still solvent enough to look after them. The number of medications I'm on is quite a list, but them being here, even for just a maximum of six months would certainly help my healing process, both mentally and physically.
Question: Is it true I need a photograph of us both togther in order to apply for a tourist/family visit visa? I ask, because I don't have one - only aphotograph with me with my son when he was a baby. I'm thinking of visiting a Commisioner of Oaths to make a sworn affadavit, saying we are in a relationship, if this would help towards their visa applications.
Who is it exactly who has to apply for their visas, them or me?
Alright, enought preliminary questions from me now after such a long absence. We will all be extremely appreciative is you can offer us some help and guidance, and please feel free to ask me about anything I might have missed out here.
The last concern I have, is about one of the replies I had earlier on this topic, about ther may be problems successfully applying for a 6 month tourist/family visit (what's the difference between the two) visa, as I may have problems providing evidence that they will return to Indonesia with the length of the visa, up to six months. I was hoping to be able to buy 'open return' tickets for them, so if things, for one reason or another, didn't work out, they might want or need to return to Indonesia before the six months maximum limit is reached. Is a return ticket enough proof for immigration to trust that they will return within the designated time-limit? I as, because my fiance doesn't have any particular need to return to Indonesia, as she doesn't work or study there, and is just a full-time Mum.
Incidentally, I tried to visit them in Indonesia at the end of 2012, but, tragically, upon reaching Jakarta airport, immigration refused me entry, due to the face that I'd been previously deported in 2011 after my one year prison sentence there. What a sorry waste of a £2000 business-class tick THAT was . Sorry if this post has been a bit jumbled, I'd been meaning to post for weeks, but have been too depressed to think.

Warmest regards, deperately,

[shannon786]

Hi,

Boy.... I must say your story is hell of a lot complicated than mine but similar in some ways.
My hat goes off for you for keeping it going given the problems you have been facing everytime you turn a corner especially with physical problems.
Doing porridge there must have been hard too and I'm so sorry you were refused entry at CGK and totally disagree with them doing that as you've already done the time which was for nothing in the first place, that must have been heartbreaking knowing your other half and child are yards away yet you can't be with them, I only hope they let you spend some time with them. I've been there a few times making that never ending journey and on most of the occaisions I took long breaks in DAC or SIN and to be told your not allowed in is just cruel, not sure how you took it in as I would have went crazy, I once brought the airport down with my voice cos mine and my girlfriends flight to BKK was brought forward by 10 hours without me even being told!!! It was to be her first time out of Indonesia...!

Anyway, first of all I'd like to say the advice and replies you have been getting is excellent so thanks to him its shed some light to some of my questions.

Now my question is I plan to marry my Indonesian girlfriend in Indonesia within the next couple of years or so, she has a 4 year old daughter from a previous relationship, they were never married and he vanished pretty much as soon as the daughter was born, since then my girlfriend and the father of her child have never made any contact what so ever nor he has made any attempt to contact her or his daughter.
I pretty much know the process of getting married so what I need to know is can I/or wife apply to have both the mother and daughter come to the United Kingdom together or is she only allowed to join me first, then after the first 2 or so years she is able to bring her daughter to join us in the United Kingdom? The daughter is so adorable it breaks my heart to think I'm separating them, from birth she hasn't had a dad and now her mother has met me and I've half kind of become a fatherly figure, it may look like to the poor thing I'm taking her mother away from her, it's just heartbreaking so surely there is a system in place for both mother and daughter to come here in the UK together right?

Please help....

Thank you so much and good luck.

Shannon.
London.

Ps. I'm a British Citizen.