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Irish citizen applying for British naturalisation

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

simonflynn04
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Irish citizen applying for British naturalisation

Post by simonflynn04 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:28 pm

Hi

I have a question about when I can apply for naturalisation as a British citizen. From what I understand EU citizens must live in the UK for 5 years upon which they gain permanent residence, and then they must live in the UK for a further year with the permanent resident status ... so basically it's 6 years in total.

But Irish people are automatically given indefinite leave to remain/permanent residence immediately upon arrival in the UK so would I be able to apply after 5 years of residence or would I need to wait for 6 before applying? Basically I don't wan't to pay the fee and then get refused because I was too early!

Thanks for the help!
Simon

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:32 pm

5 years. But as vinny asked in a separate thread.
vinny wrote:why would Irish citizens want British citizenship?

simonflynn04
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Post by simonflynn04 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:38 pm

Jambo wrote:5 years. But as vinny asked in a separate thread.
vinny wrote:why would Irish citizens want British citizenship?
It's purely a personal thing. I realise I get no extra legal benefits or anything - Just that I view my home as being the United Kingdom and would like to make it official.

Christophe
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Post by Christophe » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:32 am

There is no good reason why an Irish citizen ought not to apply for British citizenship. As simonflynn04 says, it is a personal thing.

We also need to remember that there is never any guarantee that arrangements that are in place now will remain so in perpetuity. Of course, the rights of Irish citizens in the UK are different in many respects (including how they are enshrined in British law) from the rights of other EU citizens in the UK (and the rights are greater), and it is very unlikely that those rights will be diminished in any substantial way in the future. But, equally, for example, in 1955 it would have seemed inconceivable that someone from Germany or Italy or France would have found it easier to settle and work in the UK than someone from Canada or New Zealand, yet 20 years later that was exactly the situation – and 20 years is not really so long in the average person's lifetime...

If an Irish citizen sees his or her home as being in the UK, it seems to me very sensible to become a British citizen.

simonflynn04
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Post by simonflynn04 » Sat May 05, 2012 1:27 am

Thanks for the responses! I have some more questions though about the form.

Seeing as Irish citizens automatically have ILR do I need to fill out the section about exercising EC Treaty Rights seeing as I'm not really applying under that criteria but there's no section to account for the unique citizenship laws between the UK & Ireland? Also if you're an EU student it asks for letters from your uni saying you're enrolled. I changed course in one year so my letter from the uni just says I was enrolled from Sept to Dec. Is that ok or would I need to prove residency for the rest of the academic year in some other way? And if so how?

Thanks for any advice!

DEVONIAN
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Post by DEVONIAN » Sat May 05, 2012 3:59 pm

Christophe wrote:There is no good reason why an Irish citizen ought not to apply for British citizenship. As simonflynn04 says, it is a personal thing.

We also need to remember that there is never any guarantee that arrangements that are in place now will remain so in perpetuity. Of course, the rights of Irish citizens in the UK are different in many respects (including how they are enshrined in British law) from the rights of other EU citizens in the UK (and the rights are greater), and it is very unlikely that those rights will be diminished in any substantial way in the future. But, equally, for example, in 1955 it would have seemed inconceivable that someone from Germany or Italy or France would have found it easier to settle and work in the UK than someone from Canada or New Zealand, yet 20 years later that was exactly the situation – and 20 years is not really so long in the average person's lifetime...

If an Irish citizen sees his or her home as being in the UK, it seems to me very sensible to become a British citizen.


I absolutely agree with the viewpoint expressed by Christophe. Before becoming a BC myself, my child was born on the Island of Ireland at a time when any child born anywhere within the Island (both the North of the Island, i.e. Northern Ireland, which is geo-politically part of the UK and the South which is the Republic of Ireland) automatically acquired Irish citizenship irrespective of their parent's nationality. My child has, however, ever since been living in Northern Ireland, UK and has no ties whatsoever with the Republic of Ireland. Should the issue(s) raised by Christope arise, it certainly wouldn't be fair on my child given that this child has always, since birth, been living here in the UK, albeit in Northern Ireland. Also, speaking of higher education tuition fees and funding, your nationality and residence determines how much fees you’re expected to pay and/or the level of funding you can receive. Further, the fact that some civil service jobs are exclusively reserved for UK citizens; some exclusively reserved for UK and Commonwealth citizens (Ireland is currently not part of the Commonwealth); and, others unreserved, simply suggest that, upon attaining adulthood, there are jobs which this child, on account of not holding British citizenship, cannot apply for. On balance, it makes sense for my child to hold British citizenship in addition to holding Irish citizenship.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat May 05, 2012 4:31 pm

DEVONIAN wrote: I absolutely agree with the viewpoint expressed by Christophe. Before becoming a BC myself, my child was born on the Island of Ireland at a time when any child born anywhere within the Island (both the North of the Island, i.e. Northern Ireland, which is geo-politically part of the UK and the South which is the Republic of Ireland) automatically acquired Irish citizenship irrespective of their parent's nationality. My child has, however, ever since been living in Northern Ireland, UK and has no ties whatsoever with the Republic of Ireland. Should the issue(s) raised by Christope arise, it certainly wouldn't be fair on my child given that this child has always, since birth, been living here in the UK, albeit in Northern Ireland. Also, speaking of higher education tuition fees and funding, your nationality and residence determines how much fees you’re expected to pay and/or the level of funding you can receive. Further, the fact that some civil service jobs are exclusively reserved for UK citizens; some exclusively reserved for UK and Commonwealth citizens (Ireland is currently not part of the Commonwealth); and, others unreserved, simply suggest that, upon attaining adulthood, there are jobs which this child, on account of not holding British citizenship, cannot apply for. On balance, it makes sense for my child to hold British citizenship in addition to holding Irish citizenship.
But if you child was born in NI, then he is British from birth, it is not a choice, you or he made.

In term of rights, Irish are entitled to the same rights as British in terms of benefits and education. There might be some jobs in the secret service they might not be able to apply to but for everything else (including be elected as MP) being Irish is the same as being British.

As said before, it's a personal choice. I was just curious to hear the reason.
Last edited by Jambo on Sat May 05, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat May 05, 2012 4:35 pm

simonflynn04 wrote:Thanks for the responses! I have some more questions though about the form.

Seeing as Irish citizens automatically have ILR do I need to fill out the section about exercising EC Treaty Rights seeing as I'm not really applying under that criteria but there's no section to account for the unique citizenship laws between the UK & Ireland? Also if you're an EU student it asks for letters from your uni saying you're enrolled. I changed course in one year so my letter from the uni just says I was enrolled from Sept to Dec. Is that ok or would I need to prove residency for the rest of the academic year in some other way? And if so how?

Thanks for any advice!
I would think you don't need to fill out the EEA sections. You just need to prove you have been resident in the UK. Letters from employers, university, or other Government Departments can indicae presence
in UK

Christophe
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Post by Christophe » Sun May 06, 2012 9:20 pm

simonflynn04 wrote:Thanks for the responses! I have some more questions though about the form.

Seeing as Irish citizens automatically have ILR do I need to fill out the section about exercising EC Treaty Rights seeing as I'm not really applying under that criteria but there's no section to account for the unique citizenship laws between the UK & Ireland? Also if you're an EU student it asks for letters from your uni saying you're enrolled. I changed course in one year so my letter from the uni just says I was enrolled from Sept to Dec. Is that ok or would I need to prove residency for the rest of the academic year in some other way? And if so how?

Thanks for any advice!
If, as an Irish citizen, you simply moved to the UK in the ordinary way, then you haven't been exercising EC treaty rights. You are in exactly the same position as a Commonwealth citizen with the right of abode in the UK in that you were deemed to be "settled" (note not, technically, ILR nor yet permanent residence, but settled) from the moment you arrived in the UK. You do need, however, to prove residence in the UK, which could be by letters from a university, college, etc, letters confirming employment, evidence of rental accommodation, evidence of payments such as council tax, letters from the tax/National Insurance people, and so on. Such evidence could be from more than one source, of course, to cover different periods.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun May 06, 2012 9:38 pm

Back to the original question. For Irish nationals who have PR, can they apply immediately having acquired PR, ie 5 years of continuous enjoyment of EU rights? (I think the answer is yes, but have become a little confused with the correspondence).

Christophe
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Post by Christophe » Sun May 06, 2012 9:52 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Back to the original question. For Irish nationals who have PR, can they apply immediately having acquired PR, ie 5 years of continuous enjoyment of EU rights? (I think the answer is yes, but have become a little confused with the correspondence).
Yes, Irish citizens can apply after 5 years of living in the UK, since they are deemed to be "settled" in the UK from the moment of their arrival.

(They don't, therefore, acquire PR in the ordinary course of events anyway. And as a technicality, EU rights have nothing to do with Irish citizens naturalising in this way, since the "immigration" rights of Irish citizens in the UK are enshrined in different British laws from the rights of other EU citizens and, moreover, the rights of Irish citizens are greater those of other EU citizens. )

mattfrombann
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Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by mattfrombann » Wed May 09, 2012 2:47 pm

Jambo wrote:
DEVONIAN wrote: I absolutely agree with the viewpoint expressed by Christophe. Before becoming a BC myself, my child was born on the Island of Ireland at a time when any child born anywhere within the Island (both the North of the Island, i.e. Northern Ireland, which is geo-politically part of the UK and the South which is the Republic of Ireland) automatically acquired Irish citizenship irrespective of their parent's nationality. My child has, however, ever since been living in Northern Ireland, UK and has no ties whatsoever with the Republic of Ireland. Should the issue(s) raised by Christope arise, it certainly wouldn't be fair on my child given that this child has always, since birth, been living here in the UK, albeit in Northern Ireland. Also, speaking of higher education tuition fees and funding, your nationality and residence determines how much fees you’re expected to pay and/or the level of funding you can receive. Further, the fact that some civil service jobs are exclusively reserved for UK citizens; some exclusively reserved for UK and Commonwealth citizens (Ireland is currently not part of the Commonwealth); and, others unreserved, simply suggest that, upon attaining adulthood, there are jobs which this child, on account of not holding British citizenship, cannot apply for. On balance, it makes sense for my child to hold British citizenship in addition to holding Irish citizenship.
But if you child was born in NI, then he is British from birth, it is not a choice, you or he made.

In term of rights, Irish are entitled to the same rights as British in terms of benefits and education. There might be some jobs in the secret service they might not be able to apply to but for everything else (including be elected as MP) being Irish is the same as being British.

As said before, it's a personal choice. I was just curious to hear the reason.
This thread brings a wry smile to my face. I was born and raised in Norn Iron and hold both British and Irish Passports. The first line of Jambo's comments would get many people all het up. Those born on the island of Ireland after 1922 can choose to be one or tother or both. I have had the odd aggro from some who thought the latter was somewhat unacceptable, and I could feel my father birling in his grave when I acquired the second passport. The slightly tongue in cheek benefits of having both is that sometimes in certain countries Brits are not flavour of month: then you become Irish. The Irish embassies are (by straw poll) better at looking after compatriots who get into bother, and they definitely have the best parties.

Strangely n all my travels , the only place I found an Irish passport to be a hindrance was, of all places, Bolivia. My then purely Irish girlfriend required a special visa whereas I didn't

More seriously though, if you get into an arm wrestle with Brit immigration over your non EU spouse, that Irish and therefore EU citizenship is a pretty powerful weapon.



So some definite benefits to having second Irish nationality, whereas for all practical purposes I can't see much benefit in having secondary British passport. It is , as posted, a very personal decision

friendinneed
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by friendinneed » Wed May 09, 2012 2:58 pm

mattfrombann wrote:Strangely n all my travels , the only place I found an Irish passport to be a hindrance was, of all places, Bolivia. My then purely Irish girlfriend required a special visa whereas I didn't
Was that for tourism? The Bolivian embassy site says UK and Ireland are the same.

Having both passports myself I have always wondered if there is any country that having one or the other would give a benefit and to date I am yet to find any.

Personally have two passports can be advantageous if you enjoy traveling and want to visit certain non-favoured countries so one passport for Palestine, Iran, Cuba etc and a second for Israel, USA etc

Christophe
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by Christophe » Wed May 09, 2012 3:08 pm

mattfrombann wrote: Those born on the island of Ireland after 1922 can choose to be one or tother or both.
Well, that has only ever applied to people born in Northern Ireland, obviously. And from 1983 onwards, birth in the UK (in this case in Northern Ireland) has not conferred British citizenship in all cases, and from 2005 onwards, birth on the island or Ireland has not conferred Irish citizenship in all cases.

Sorry, just being picky here! :wink:

DEVONIAN
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Post by DEVONIAN » Wed May 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Nuanced explications of how the acquisition of both Irish and British citizenships remain 'a personal thing'.

mattfrombann
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by mattfrombann » Wed May 09, 2012 5:36 pm

Christophe wrote:
mattfrombann wrote: Those born on the island of Ireland after 1922 can choose to be one or tother or both.
Well, that has only ever applied to people born in Northern Ireland, obviously. And from 1983 onwards, birth in the UK (in this case in Northern Ireland) has not conferred British citizenship in all cases, and from 2005 onwards, birth on the island or Ireland has not conferred Irish citizenship in all cases.

Sorry, just being picky here! :wink:
That's perfectly OK. I haven't kept abreast of developments there. Being picky is the "raison d'etre" of the Irish (of any hue) :)

mattfrombann
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by mattfrombann » Wed May 09, 2012 5:50 pm

friendinneed wrote:
mattfrombann wrote:Strangely n all my travels , the only place I found an Irish passport to be a hindrance was, of all places, Bolivia. My then purely Irish girlfriend required a special visa whereas I didn't
Was that for tourism? The Bolivian embassy site says UK and Ireland are the same.

Having both passports myself I have always wondered if there is any country that having one or the other would give a benefit and to date I am yet to find any.

Personally have two passports can be advantageous if you enjoy traveling and want to visit certain non-favoured countries so one passport for Palestine, Iran, Cuba etc and a second for Israel, USA etc
This was some 12 years ago so things have probably changed, and I was , as usual, working in a far off land (I am a quasi tourist when I go home). I did wonder at the time what the history might be. Gave up in the end as her nearest Bolivian embassy was in London and it all got too complicated. I am married to Zim lady (and that's a whole different immigration story) and when I went there first I went Irish in case Uncle Bob was a bit cranky. No problem so I went back and got married British :)

jms_uk
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by jms_uk » Wed May 09, 2012 8:12 pm

friendinneed wrote:Personally have two passports can be advantageous if you enjoy traveling and want to visit certain non-favoured countries so one passport for Palestine, Iran, Cuba etc and a second for Israel, USA etc
US and Cuba don't mind that you [as a third country national] went to either of the those two countries ;)

Israel will give you hassle at security after visiting some 'non-friendly' countries, but will still let you in. Sadly, opposite doesn't work and that's where the second passport would come in handy...

mattfrombann
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Re: Irish Citizen applying for British Naturalisation

Post by mattfrombann » Wed May 09, 2012 8:20 pm

friendinneed wrote:
mattfrombann wrote:Strangely n all my travels , the only place I found an Irish passport to be a hindrance was, of all places, Bolivia. My then purely Irish girlfriend required a special visa whereas I didn't
Was that for tourism? The Bolivian embassy site says UK and Ireland are the same.

Having both passports myself I have always wondered if there is any country that having one or the other would give a benefit and to date I am yet to find any.

Personally have two passports can be advantageous if you enjoy traveling and want to visit certain non-favoured countries so one passport for Palestine, Iran, Cuba etc and a second for Israel, USA etc

I forgot about this very hot topic. Sure to be a rush on Irish passports in NI

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17900220

And finally, as Sir Trevor used to say

In the days before John Vine there was Lynda Costello-Baker. Buried in one of her early reports was the case of the (UK Visas) Entry Clearance Officer (Abuja I think) who rejected an application because Belfast was not in the UK.

arutnl
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Post by arutnl » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:07 pm

simonflynn04 wrote:Thanks for the responses! I have some more questions though about the form.

Seeing as Irish citizens automatically have ILR do I need to fill out the section about exercising EC Treaty Rights seeing as I'm not really applying under that criteria but there's no section to account for the unique citizenship laws between the UK & Ireland? Also if you're an EU student it asks for letters from your uni saying you're enrolled. I changed course in one year so my letter from the uni just says I was enrolled from Sept to Dec. Is that ok or would I need to prove residency for the rest of the academic year in some other way? And if so how?

Thanks for any advice!

Hi Simon,
I saw your posts about applying for British Citizenship. I am in same situation. Irish Citizen living in UK for 5 years and want to apply for British Citizenship.
Can you let me know if you applied and got any response. I too don't want to loose the fee if they say I have applied too early and have to wait for 6 years.
Also, it would be good if some one can point to the actually law, or official document, where it says Irish citizens deemed settled in UK and it is same as the ILR or PR. This way I can atleast refer it in my covering letter with the application.

Many Thanks..

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