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Registering as citizen: Pre 1983 foreign born to UK mother

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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NelsonVG
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Registering as citizen: Pre 1983 foreign born to UK mother

Post by NelsonVG » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:28 pm

I am considering applying to be registered as a British citizen. I was born before 1983 outside the UK to a mother born in the 1946 inside the UK (to UK born parents). I refer to “GUIDE UKM” published by the UK Border Agency. It advises that, among the documents I must send with my application is the following: EITHER:

(1) my mother’s certificate of naturalisation or registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or, before 1 January 1949, as a British subject) OR

(2) (A) papers showing my mother’s legal adoption OR

(2)(B) my mother’s expired citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies passport.

I cannot provide any of the above. By way of explanation, my mother was born in the UK in 1946 to UK born parents and so was a citizen from birth; she was never naturalised or registered as a UK citizen or subject, nor was she ever legally adopted. Moreover, she emigrated from the UK as a very young child and has never held any British passport.

Could any one advise what documents I ought to include with my application. The other documents (Birth certificates for me, birth certificate for her, marriage cert. for my parents, my passport and “good character” documentation etc) are not a problem but the above appears to be.

Many thanks.

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Post by vinny » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:00 am

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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NelsonVG
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Registering as citizen: Pre 1983 foreign born to UK mother

Post by NelsonVG » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:07 am

Thanks but I haven't seen any relevant answer there.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:52 pm

I believe vinny was referring to chapter 7 (caseworker instructions) where it states that those documents are not a must. I believe a UK birth certificate is enough to prove that your mother was a CUKC.

NelsonVG
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Registering as citizen: Pre 1983 foreign born to UK mother

Post by NelsonVG » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:57 am

Thank you Vinny and Jumbo very much. Your replies are very helpful. I would appreciate some extra help, about the following.

DOCUMENTATION

This is the UKM documentation I propose to submit:
- Completed Form UKM;
- Payment;
- My mother’s original UK birth certificate (1946);
- My mother’s original non-UK marriage certificate;
- My original non-UK birth certificate (pre-1983);
- My original current non-UK passport;
- A recent original police certificate from the jurisdiction where I have lived since 2012; and
- A bank statement and a telephone bill addressed to me at my present address.

Any views on whether the above is likely enough. Do I need to send my original current passport? Do I need to get a police certificate?

QUESTIONS RE FORM UKM

- Question 1.7 asks for a “National Insurance Number” - I have never had a UK national insurance number (having never lived there); I do have an equivalent from my country of nationality and also I have one from the territory I presently live in (a BOT). My instinct is to leave this blank? Any views?

- Question 1.21 asks my mother’s nationality. My mother was born in the UK (in 1946) but has never gone by her UK nationality. She is a national of another country and carries its passport. I am happy that she is a CUKC citizen in the sense she was born one and has never given it up but she has never gone by that nationality my instinct here is to put the nationality she actually goes by (which is also the country she lives in)?

- Question 1.22 asks “State how your mother acquired citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies”. My draft answer is “She was born in the United Kingdom in 1946”. Is that sufficient?

- Questions 1.27 to 1.34 deal with questions concerning “grandparents”. I am basing my application on the fact that my mother was born in the UK. It so happens that her parents were too. But my instinct is that that I don’t need to go into all that. Any views?

- Question 4.3 states “I confirm that I have enclosed the appropriate ceremony fee and payment slip.” How much is this? My understanding is that I must pay a registration fee of £753 and Section 4C registration (ceremony fee only) £80 giving total of £833. I’ve seen a “pay slip” on the UKBA website and understand I can pay by credit card using that; so I think I am all clear on this but if any one disagrees, perhaps you would let me know.

Again, many thanks (in advance) for your thoughtful and knowledgeable responses.

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Post by JAJ » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:11 am

1. You don't need to send your passport (and you shouldn't, you need it and they might lose it).

2. Police checks - read and follow the UKM guidance.

3. Fees:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ying/cost/
I thought they had a reduced fee for UKM, but perhaps no longer?

4. Her UK birth certificate is sufficient proof of nationality.

5. Grandparents - probably irrelevant.

NelsonVG
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Registering as citizen: Pre 1983 foreign born to UK mother

Post by NelsonVG » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:03 am

I have lots of unanswered questions left if any one wants to help out!

Thank you Jaj for your opinion that I don't need to submit my passport. I expect you are right as they don't list it as a document in the UKM guide.

In terms of police checks, I am no futher on. I am aware that the UKM guide states that police checks will be carried out. I have never lived in the UK; will they arrange police checks in another EU member state and a BOT?

As to fees, I could not open the link you referred me to so I can't determine if it contained anything different to what I said (myself referring to a UKBA gude: registration fee of £753 and Section 4C registration (ceremony fee only) £80 giving total of £833).

I think the only question Jaj has answered is that I don't need to submit a passport. Thanks for that Jaj - though the Chapter 7 guidance was rather confusing on that insofar as it went on at some lengths about documentation required to establish one's identity.

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Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:25 am

1.7 - leave blank.
1.21 - I would put British (your whole application is based on that) or British & her other nationality.
1.22 - that's fine. You can also add to UK born parents.
No need to put grandparents details (although no harm adding them if you know/can prove them).
4.3 - UKM application is free. You just pay for the ceremony (£80). Not a bad deal compared to other options offered by the UKBA.

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Re: UK citizenship through marriage and residence in a BOT

Post by vinny » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:42 am

NelsonVG wrote:Hypothetical:

(1) I am married to a UK citizen and living in a British Overseas Territory*, does my residence here with my UK citizen spouse count towards naturalising as a UK citizen?

(2) If the answer is yes to the above, how long must I live here?

(3) If my spouse was not a UK citizen when I married my spouse, would the "residency clock" only start to tick from when my spouse became a UK citizen (spouse is considering registering, not naturalising, as a UK citizen)?

(4) Separate question, does living in a British Overses Territory count as residence for becoming a naturalised UK citizen (for clarity, I am not referring to any other form of British citizenship).

*Not Cypriot Base Areas.

Many thanks.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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Re: British by descent father;born outside UK/Relevant Terri

Post by vinny » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:46 am

NelsonVG wrote:SCENARIO

FACTS:

- I am a regular UK citizen but only by descent;
- I am living in a British Overseas Territory and have been for 3 years; I hold a work permit here; I do not have any "belonger" or other status here, nor am I a BOT citizen;
- My wife is pregnant and we are deciding where to have the baby; there are limited maternity options in the Territory; and
- My wife lives with me here at the moment but she has only lived here 1 year and before that did not live in the UK or any British OVerseas Territory; she is not a UK or other type of British citizen, or EU/EEA citizen either.

QUESTIONS:

I am clear enough that if our baby is born in the British Overseas Territory, my child will be a regular UK citizen. What if my wife chooses to give birth in another country (travelling there shortly before giving birth and travelling back to the British Overseas Territory afterwards)?

Assuming the baby would be a UK citizen:

- would it be a UK citizen "by descent" or "otherwise than by descent"; and
- what would the procedure be to get a passport etc. for the baby.

Thanks.
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Post by vinny » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:39 am

I don't think that child will be British if wife chooses to give birth in another country (neither UK nor qualifying territory).
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Post by Amber » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:16 am

If one of your parents was British otherwise than by descent and you've been in the UK for 3 years? Then the child, born abroad (neither UK or QT) may be entitled to register as British by virtue of section 3(2) BNA which would make the child British by descent or if you could get the child to the UK after birth, stay for some time then register under section 3(5) the child would be British otherwise than by descent.
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Post by NelsonVG » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:58 pm

(1) one of my parents is British otherwise than by descent

(2) I have never lived in the UK, I have lived in a QT for more than 3 years, which is where I live now.

If the child is born abroad (neither UK or QT) would it be entitled to register as British by descent if the child (as planned) comes back immediately after the birth to live with me and his mother.

There is no possibility of us living in the UK.

Thanks.

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Post by NelsonVG » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:01 pm

By the way, I think I read something covering this scenario once.....and got the impression that my child could be British if the mother simply opted to leave the territory to have the baby. But obviously I am not too sure about it as if I was, I would not be asking here!..Best.

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Post by Amber » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:15 pm

See Chapter 10 (click) at 10.5 at pages 5 and 6. It appears that the parent must have at any time before the child's birth lived in the United Kingdom or QT for a continuous period of 3 years.
Last edited by Amber on Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NelsonVG » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:50 pm

Dear D4109125:

Thank you for pointing me to section 3(2) of the BNA; As I read it:

I am the married father of a baby (the “Baby”). Baby, even if born outside the UK and a QT, will be entitled to be registered as a British citizen [by descent?] under section 3(2) because:

• I was a British citizen when Baby was born;
• My mother was a British citizen otherwise than by descent when I was born; and
• For a period of more than three years ending on the date Baby was born, I was legally resident in a QT and living in a QT and the number of days I was absent from the QT during that 3 year period did not exceed 270.

Alternatively, if we (Baby’s married parents) and Baby continue to live in a QT for 3 years following Baby’s birth, we would be able to register Baby as British [otherwise than by descent?] under section 3(5) because:
• I was a British citizen by descent when Baby was born;
• Both parents and Baby were in the QT at the beginning of the period of three years ending with the date of the application and none of us were absent for a period exceeding 270 days; and
• Parents both agree with the registration of Baby as a British citizen.

Let me know of course if you disagree with my reading of the above.

Also, from your earlier post, I understand that if we register Baby under section 3(2) he will only be "British by descent" but if we register him under section 3(5), he will be"British otherwise than by descent" (a better status). Where have you found this distinction. I do not see it in the Section itself. Thanks (again).

P.s. for simplicity's sake, I refer only to living in a QT as there is no prospect of us living in the UK.

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Post by NelsonVG » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:55 pm

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61

That is where I read the legislation that I go through above; I also read the Guide document you pointed me to but I see that it too refers to "QTs" provided Baby is born after 2002 (which he was).

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Post by Amber » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:21 pm

If your child is born outside the UK and QT then that child should be entitled to register as a British under section 3(2) if you've lived in a QT for three years, but perhaps wiser, is if you wait until the child has lived in the QT and apply under section 3(5) as the child will be British otherwise than by descent.
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Post by NelsonVG » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:09 am

Thanks and fully noted that a 3(5) application gives the better status.

However, I am not sure if Parents plus Baby will live in a QT for 3+ years post birth. Therefore I am still mindful that 3(2) may ultimately be the apt. route. Here I quote the following from the Guidance publication:

f. Or - if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, the parent in question:
i. had, at any time before the minor's birth lived a qualifying
territory for a continuous period of 3 years; and
ii. was in that qualifying territory at the beginning of that 3 year period; and
iii. was not absent from the qualifying territories for more than 270 days in that 3 year period....

In (iii) what do the words "that 3 year period" mean. I have lived in a QT now for 3+ years. I am British by descent. If I leave here, got married and had a child in a third country in 5 years' time, could that child be registered as "British by descent" because I lived in a QT for 3 years at some point in my life?

Thanks

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Post by vinny » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:13 am

Yes.
NelsonVG wrote: f. Or - if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, the parent in question:
i. had, at any time before the minor's birth lived a qualifying
territory for a continuous period of 3 years
; and
ii. was in that qualifying territory at the beginning of that 3 year period; and
iii. was not absent from the qualifying territories for more than 270 days in that 3 year period....
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Post by NelsonVG » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:45 pm

Thanks...I wonder what on Earth is meant by the words in point (ii) then.

Why didn't they just phrase it:

f. Or - if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, the parent in question:
i. had, at any time before the minor's birth lived a qualifying
territory for a continuous period of 3 years; and
ii. was not absent from the qualifying territories for more than 270 days in that 3 year period.

What purpose was served by those words in (ii) that I omit from the above, i.e.:

"ii. was in that qualifying territory at the beginning of that 3 year period"

I struggle with this. How could I commence residing in any Territory without being in that place at the beginning of that time period. How could point (ii) ever catch some one out? If so, how. Can any one think of an example? Thanks again.

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