ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Do non-EEA dependants remain dependants FOREVER? Detailed Q!

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

Locked
datuchi
BANNED
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: NW London

Do non-EEA dependants remain dependants FOREVER? Detailed Q!

Post by datuchi » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:12 pm

N.B. THIS APPLIES TO ALL TYPES OF EXTENDED DEPENDANT FAMILY MEMBERS AND NOT JUST THIS PARTICULAR CASE WITH PARENTS.

My wife's parents (non-EEA) are in the UK on the basis of being dependant extended family members (in the ascending line) of an EEA national (yours truly).


They were given that Residence Card for 5 years in 2008 as dependants.

A)

What would happen when the time comes to apply for PR.
Obviously from the country they are from (former Soviet Union block...) they depended on the financial support of their children based in Europe.

However, upon arrival here, they could get jobs, even earn more money than their "sponsor" kids, as there is no requirement for those dependants to be frail or disabled, but ONLY to be financially dependent on the EEA sponsor!

So, if they come to the UK as dependants and later earn money, technically they are not dependants anymore, and do not satisfy the requirements for being eligible to join EEA nationals as their family members in the ascending line? Surely, it's a good thing for them to be contributing to the tax system? And moreover, they wouldn't have the entitlement to work/ "business activity allowed" expressly stamped into their passports on the EEA2 cards. So, on what basis would they be qualifying persons? Clearly not dependants?



1) When applying for PR in 2013 (with God's grace- healthwise), what should they put down? Dependants of the EEA national in the ascending line? But there won't be any more proof that they are dependants as when the initial Residence Card was issued in 2008?

Or,

2) should they be put down... (not literally HAHAHA) on the application form of my wife as her dependants when my wife's time to apply for PR comes? She obtained her RC in 2006 and is eligible for PR in 2011?

But then again, what proof will she/us show that they are dependants? They won't be any more, as by then the parents would have become INDEPENDENT.

Moreover, they would not have been in the country for 5 yrs.

It is a bit confusing, as I remember reading somewhere that every single dependant must have resided in accordance with the Regulations for 5 years to become eligible for PR? But that cannot be right, as the whole point of including them in the EEA applications is to give them the same rights. Otherwise, they would be advised to apply in their own right on an application form.

B)

From what moment did they BECOME family members for the purposes of the Directive? Was it the same time as when I married their daughter in 2006? Or, was it when they first entered the UK in 2008?
Would the 5 yrs count from the latter for the PR purposes?

I'm... confused to say the least.
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

lolik12345
Newly Registered
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:20 pm
Location: LONDON

can my mum apply for eea2?

Post by lolik12345 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:21 pm

Hello ,I have same situation I am holding 5 years resident card,and i want to help my mum to get it.she is currently on the guest visa.can she apply for eea2 aplication as i did before.?thanks

Ben
Diamond Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Elsewhere
Contact:

Post by Ben » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:31 pm

"Family member of a Union citizen" is not the same as "Dependant of a Union citizen".

Permanent Residence is acquired by family members who are not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous period of five years.
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

datuchi
BANNED
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: NW London

Post by datuchi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:31 pm

Sorry for the late reply... Some family members only benefit from the Directive by being dependants...

Dependant in the ascending line IS a family member of a Union citizen, I think it was clear in Directive 2004/38.
As many of my other posts, the questions I ask remain unanswered... what a shame.


benifa wrote:"Family member of a Union citizen" is not the same as "Dependant of a Union citizen".

Permanent Residence is acquired by family members who are not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous period of five years.
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

Pakhtoon
- thin ice -
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:57 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: can my mum apply for eea2?

Post by Pakhtoon » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:04 pm

lolik12345 wrote:Hello ,I have same situation I am holding 5 years resident card,and i want to help my mum to get it.she is currently on the guest visa.can she apply for eea2 aplication as i did before.?thanks
First get yourself settled before dragging behind yourself all your family to the UK.
“Terrorism is the war of the poor; war is the terrorism of the rich.â€

datuchi
BANNED
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: NW London

Re: can my mum apply for eea2?

Post by datuchi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:19 pm

Again, who the .... are you???? What kind of manners did they teach you in Pakistan? I thought that country's traditions teach respect (even though struggling on the democracy bit). You are a very ill-mannered, disrespectful little worm!
How dare you refer to the person's mother as "dragging her"??? Would you like someone referring to your family as being "dragged"? I bet you wouldn't sing like you do in the comfort of your bedroom if you had to make all these comments in person!
If in a pub here you'd have a pint smashed over your head, in Pakistan you'd probably get killed, you of all people, coming from such a country, should know best that you cannot make comments like that lightly!

I don't think anyone has made me experience so many negative emotions as your stupid and ill-thought comments do.

REBEL, as per your PM asking me to leave this door handle alone, I wonder what's in there for you when you say: "I'm behind him from now on?" Does he pay you or what? How else would you explain supporting this degenerate?

P.S. BTW, neither do I condone any other members using this term "dragging the whole family"! And, unfortunately, inwarsaw is copying the bad side of this forum.


inwarsaw wrote:
lolik12345 wrote:Hello ,I have same situation I am holding 5 years resident card,and i want to help my mum to get it.she is currently on the guest visa.can she apply for eea2 aplication as i did before.?thanks
First get yourself settled before dragging behind yourself all your family to the UK.
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14711
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:07 am

In answer to your question, i am confident you non-EEA dependant will not need to provide further proof that they are still dependant on you, as that has already been establish during the Residence Card application stage.

For them to obtain PR, they will need to show evidence of continuous residence in the UK, and evidence that you the EEA sponsor has been exercising treaty rights over that period.

The personal circumstance will not be re-examined, all that is needed is 5 years continuous residence.
[b] EEA Guide[/b] wrote: Third-country national family members who acquire permanent residence under the 2006 Regulations can apply for confirmation of their permanent residence status. Permanent residence will normally be acquired after you have lived in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years in accordance with the 2006 Regulations. You will need to have been living in the United Kingdom throughout the five-year period and you will need to be able to demonstrate that your EEA national family member has been working/seeking work, in self-employment, studying or self-sufficient during this time.
Black life matters.

Pakhtoon
- thin ice -
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:57 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: can my mum apply for eea2?

Post by Pakhtoon » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:51 am

datuchi wrote:Again, who the .... are you????
A member of this forum with a right of free speech.
datuchi wrote:What kind of manners did they teach you in Pakistan? I thought that country's traditions teach respect (even though struggling on the democracy bit).
I didn't disrespect anyone. Besides, its nothing to do with my nationality so stop playing that nonsense.
datuchi wrote:You are a very ill-mannered, disrespectful little worm!
How dare you refer to the person's mother as "dragging her"??? Would you like someone referring to your family as being "dragged"?
I just advised the guy to secure his immigration status first before thinking about bringing his family. He himself is dependent on his wife yet.
datuchi wrote:I bet you wouldn't sing like you do in the comfort of your bedroom if you had to make all these comments in person!
I don't use computer in bedroom, its actually the living room where I sit to computer.
datuchi wrote:If in a pub here you'd have a pint smashed over your head, in Pakistan you'd probably get killed, you of all people, coming from such a country, should know best that you cannot make comments like that lightly!
Your saying this shows you are an ignorant street fighter which I am not.
datuchi wrote:I don't think anyone has made me experience so many negative emotions as your stupid and ill-thought comments do.
You need to grow up a bit.

datuchi wrote:P.S. BTW, neither do I condone any other members using this term "dragging the whole family"! And, unfortunately, inwarsaw is copying the bad side of this forum.
Instead of barking at everyone, you could simply ask me what do I mean by 'dragging his mother'. Probably I used the wrong word because English is not my language and my vocabulary is the worst possible.

All I meant was he should focus on his own status instead of BRINGING/MOVING/INVITING/RELOCATING his mother to UK.
“Terrorism is the war of the poor; war is the terrorism of the rich.â€

datuchi
BANNED
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: NW London

Post by datuchi » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:04 pm

Ok, it makes sense... I thought it was more complicated but now that you mentioned... Thanks, Obie.

All I was getting at was whether there was any point in my wife including her parents in section 2 of the application form notwithstanding the Regulation 15(1)(b). Clearly not.

So, it is only problematic for extended family members to get a RC initially, having to go through the process of proving different elements.

As regards later PR applications, all that is required is 5 years' residence by the non-EEA + exercise of the Treaty Rights by the EEA national.

I got put off by section 2 of the EEA4 application form. Who is section 2 for?

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... a/eea4.pdf

From what I gather, it would have ONLY been used had my wife "dragged" her parents with her straightaway so that their time in the UK would have started simultaneously? There is NO OTHER way of using section 2, right?



Obie wrote:In answer to your question, i am confident you non-EEA dependant will not need to provide further proof that they are still dependant on you, as that has already been establish during the Residence Card application stage.

For them to obtain PR, they will need to show evidence of continuous residence in the UK, and evidence that you the EEA sponsor has been exercising treaty rights over that period.

The personal circumstance will not be re-examined, all that is needed is 5 years continuous residence.
[b] EEA Guide[/b] wrote: Third-country national family members who acquire permanent residence under the 2006 Regulations can apply for confirmation of their permanent residence status. Permanent residence will normally be acquired after you have lived in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years in accordance with the 2006 Regulations. You will need to have been living in the United Kingdom throughout the five-year period and you will need to be able to demonstrate that your EEA national family member has been working/seeking work, in self-employment, studying or self-sufficient during this time.
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

datuchi
BANNED
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: NW London

Post by datuchi » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:03 pm

Sorry, one more thing. I think what else confused me was that when applying for Schengen visas for the parents they also asked for proof of dependency, even though there is that Residence Card of the family member in their passports. So, as regards Schengen applications, it's a CONFUSING AREA!!!

They will keep asking for proof of dependency every time the parents apply? Is the stamp not enough proof?
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14711
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:31 pm

As you rightly stated, you cannot use section 2 except, as you correctly pointed, your wife came in with her parents and applied simultanously for the RC which commenced on the same date.

Even parents are required to provide immunisation record, School letter, etc for minor children they add in section 2.

In regards to the Schengen, they are exempted from obtaining it, as they have been issued with a residence card stated in Article 5(2), that is issued under Article 10 of the directive.

Some memberstate are finding it hard to implement this reqirement, while some are slowly getting there, like the French who have lifted that requirement for spouse of an EEA national, but still keeping it in place for other family members under Article 2(2) and Article3 (2).
Black life matters.

vegeta_2009
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:26 pm

Post by vegeta_2009 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:02 pm

datuchi, have you resolved your problem? pm me

Ben
Diamond Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Elsewhere
Contact:

Post by Ben » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:44 am

vegeta_2009 wrote:datuchi, have you resolved your problem? pm me
datuchi is currently banned from this website and is unable to PM you.
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

JS1969
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Do non-EEA dependants remain dependants FOREVER? Detaile

Post by JS1969 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:33 pm

Datuchi,

Could you please let us know how your praent in laws PR application in 2013 was processed? Did the HO asked for proof of dependency throughout the five year period?

Obie,

My in laws applications has been rejected as we could not proof dependency throughout the five year period because they were in receipt of SPC and HB which was sufficient for them to live on. I have submitted the appeal today.

Obie or anyone in the forum has any thoughts or inputs on this scenario or aware of any case law in this area?

Thanks

JS1969
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Do non-EEA dependants remain dependants FOREVER? Detaile

Post by JS1969 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:21 am

Datuchi,

Could you please let us know how your praent in laws PR application in 2013 was processed? Did the HO asked for proof of dependency throughout the five year period?

User avatar
CR001
Moderator
Posts: 75702
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:55 pm
Location: London
Mood:
South Africa

Re: Do non-EEA dependants remain dependants FOREVER? Detaile

Post by CR001 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:24 pm

JS1969 wrote:Datuchi,

Could you please let us know how your praent in laws PR application in 2013 was processed? Did the HO asked for proof of dependency throughout the five year period?
Kindly desist from digging up topics that are 7 years old. If you have a question please start your own topic.
Char (CR001 not Casa)
In life you cannot press the Backspace button!!
Please DO NOT send me a PM for immigration advice. I reserve the right to ignore the PM and not respond.

Locked
cron