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Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba

Amoniman
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:35 am

kamoe wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:51 pm
Amoniman wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:06 pm
No one from Home Office could tell me if I could reapply for Family permit because I`m already UK resident and currently in process of application for Residence card ( all of my documents are at Home Office, my wife's passport as well). I asked if I apply for FP would it be granted in less then 15 working days since I`m already resident and in process of Application, they couldn`t tell.
Like I said, they even told me to apply for tourist visa.
I already lost 4 weeks playing deaf phones with Home Office as no one can give me a straight answer.
I'm so sorry, but, bunch of [intellectually challenged synonym], they should know this!!!

The STRAIGHT OBVIOUS answer is a FAMILY PERMIT!!! How do they not know this??? Being already a resident has absolutely no impact on your eligibility to apply for a FP.

I'm talking from personal experience, had been a resident for over 6 years, with pending RC, and got granted FP with no problem, following own HO advise.
You have been resident for 6 years in UK under EU Regulation or ?
Did you have FP before or was this your first one ?

kamoe
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Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:57 am

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:02 am
kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:01 am
Amoniman wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:06 pm
all of my documents are at Home Office, my wife's passport as well
I don't get it. How were you able to go to your home country, then?
I asked my passport back, because I knew I might need i for family emergency.
Did you keep, by any chance, the letter they sent you with your passport? It should say something along the lines of: "Here is your passport, to enable you to travel. Please apply for a Family Permit to regain entry into the UK".

I believe there are a number of posts in this forum (including mine I shared) that mention the wording of that letter in more or less detail.
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

kamoe
Respected Guru
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:06 am

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:35 am
kamoe wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:51 pm
Amoniman wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:06 pm
No one from Home Office could tell me if I could reapply for Family permit because I`m already UK resident and currently in process of application for Residence card ( all of my documents are at Home Office, my wife's passport as well). I asked if I apply for FP would it be granted in less then 15 working days since I`m already resident and in process of Application, they couldn`t tell.
Like I said, they even told me to apply for tourist visa.
I already lost 4 weeks playing deaf phones with Home Office as no one can give me a straight answer.
I'm so sorry, but, bunch of [intellectually challenged synonym], they should know this!!!

The STRAIGHT OBVIOUS answer is a FAMILY PERMIT!!! How do they not know this??? Being already a resident has absolutely no impact on your eligibility to apply for a FP.

I'm talking from personal experience, had been a resident for over 6 years, with pending RC, and got granted FP with no problem, following own HO advise.
You have been resident for 6 years in UK under EU Regulation or ?
Did you have FP before or was this your first one ?
6 years under the points system, not EU regulations, so as I said before, that was my first FP.

Again, I don't see how the differences in our cases are relevant. I understand they send the aforementioned letter above ("Please apply for a Family Permit to regain entry into the UK") to everyone applying for a RC who asks for their documents back. Most peple applying for a RC have had a FP before, so if you follow the logic, I don't see how being already resident / having FP before is at all an issue to re apply for one abroad if you are locked out as you are.

Anyway: As I said above: How long has been your RC application pending for? Chances are it will be issued very soon (takes just over a month nowadays as per latest timelines) and it will be simply a matter of your wife sending it to you via DHL?
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

secret.simon
Moderator
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:18 am

There is no difference between a person who has documentation issued under the EEA Regulations and a person who is applying for the first time.

A Residence Card only certifies your status on the date of application. If you lose your Residence Card abroad or did not carry it with you, you will need to apply for a Family Permit de novo, as if you are applying for the first time, with all the proof that is required for a first time application. Similarly, as kamoe found out, if you lose your Residence Card within the UK, you need to apply for a Residence Card with all the proofs required for a first time application.

So, if you are stranded abroad,
a) apply for a Family Permit with all the same proof as required for a Residence Card OR
b) turn up at the Eurostar terminal at Paris or Brussels with your marriage certificate, your EEA citizen spouse and proof that s/he is either exercising treaty rights in the UK or has Permanent Residence in the UK (which is the proof that is required for a Family Permit /Residence Card). Be prepared for a long delay while the Border Force go through your documentation if you go down this route.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Amoniman
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Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 am

kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:57 am
Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:02 am
kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:01 am
Amoniman wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:06 pm
all of my documents are at Home Office, my wife's passport as well
I don't get it. How were you able to go to your home country, then?
I asked my passport back, because I knew I might need i for family emergency.
Did you keep, by any chance, the letter they sent you with your passport? It should say something along the lines of: "Here is your passport, to enable you to travel. Please apply for a Family Permit to regain entry into the UK".

I believe there are a number of posts in this forum (including mine I shared) that mention the wording of that letter in more or less detail.
Yes, I got that letter with me and there is no word about applying for Family Permit if I want to re enter UK while in process of application for RC :x

kamoe
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Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 am

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 am
kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:57 am
Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:02 am
kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:01 am

I don't get it. How were you able to go to your home country, then?
I asked my passport back, because I knew I might need i for family emergency.
Did you keep, by any chance, the letter they sent you with your passport? It should say something along the lines of: "Here is your passport, to enable you to travel. Please apply for a Family Permit to regain entry into the UK".

I believe there are a number of posts in this forum (including mine I shared) that mention the wording of that letter in more or less detail.
Yes, I got that letter with me and there is no word about applying for Family Permit if I want to re enter UK while in process of application for RC :x
Note that that's not word by word what the letter is supposed to say (it does not say "while in process of RC application", but the context is obvious). And I already told you that I applied for a FP while RC was in progress, and had no issues.

We have given you an answer as to what you should/could do.

Anyway, for the third time:

How long has been your RC application pending for? Chances are it will be issued very soon (takes just over a month nowadays as per latest timelines) and it could be simply a matter of your wife sending it to you via DHL?
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

Amoniman
Newly Registered
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:36 am

kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:06 am
Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:35 am
kamoe wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:51 pm
Amoniman wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:06 pm
No one from Home Office could tell me if I could reapply for Family permit because I`m already UK resident and currently in process of application for Residence card ( all of my documents are at Home Office, my wife's passport as well). I asked if I apply for FP would it be granted in less then 15 working days since I`m already resident and in process of Application, they couldn`t tell.
Like I said, they even told me to apply for tourist visa.
I already lost 4 weeks playing deaf phones with Home Office as no one can give me a straight answer.
I'm so sorry, but, bunch of [intellectually challenged synonym], they should know this!!!

The STRAIGHT OBVIOUS answer is a FAMILY PERMIT!!! How do they not know this??? Being already a resident has absolutely no impact on your eligibility to apply for a FP.

I'm talking from personal experience, had been a resident for over 6 years, with pending RC, and got granted FP with no problem, following own HO advise.
You have been resident for 6 years in UK under EU Regulation or ?
Did you have FP before or was this your first one ?
6 years under the points system, not EU regulations, so as I said before, that was my first FP.

Again, I don't see how the differences in our cases are relevant. I understand they send the aforementioned letter above ("Please apply for a Family Permit to regain entry into the UK") to everyone applying for a RC who asks for their documents back. Most peple applying for a RC have had a FP before, so if you follow the logic, I don't see how being already resident / having FP before is at all an issue to re apply for one abroad if you are locked out as you are.

Anyway: As I said above: How long has been your RC application pending for? Chances are it will be issued very soon (takes just over a month nowadays as per latest timelines) and it will be simply a matter of your wife sending it to you via DHL?
Like I said, crucial difference: I gained all my rights as direct family member under EEA Regulation before applying for RC ( witch was not mandatory for me as direct family member in the first place ).
You were under UK Immigration law ( point system ), so how many year you were resident in UK doen`t matter as you were not under EEA Regulation.
Even EU nationals must exercise their Treaty rights to be considered as qualified persons, so their Non EEA family members would derive trough them all these rights under EEA Regulation.

Apparently there is a difference also in letters we received, as like I mention, mine has no word about re applying for FP if I want to re enter UK while in process of application for RC. Maybe HO has change this in resent time.

I received my CoA around Xmass, so it could take a while. But like I said, I only left because of family emergency, I planed to get back to UK only after few days on 31.01. And for me to sit and wait here is not an option as I need to get back to my wife and son as she can`t manage child care because of work.

kamoe
Respected Guru
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:24 pm

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:36 am
I gained all my rights as direct family member under EEA Regulation before applying for RC ( witch was not mandatory for me as direct family member in the first place ).
Read secrets.simon's comment above.
You were under UK Immigration law ( point system ), so how many year you were resident in UK doen`t matter as you were not under EEA Regulation.
I never said it mattered. I was just answering your question about my immigration history, which, as I said, is completely irrelevant.

Bottom line is: you, me, or person X might have different backgrounds and immigration histories. But at the same point in time, we all three find ourselves in the situation of qualifying for right to reside as a Family Member of a EEA national (extended or not), have a RC pending application, and are stranded abroad.

We all three can apply for a Family Permit, as we all three qualify, and have the right, to receive this "Holly Grail" paper for free.

You might want to argue that you already 'acquired' the rights, but do read secret.simon's comment above. And, since you have already exhausted the right you have to travel without a visa (or "holy grail" paper) by showing your marriage certificate and wife passport (an option I didn't have as unmarried partner) and have been refused boarding, well, that puts us pretty much in the same position of having to apply for the Family Permit.
Even EU nationals must exercise their Treaty rights to be considered as qualified persons, so their Non EEA family members would derive trough them all these rights under EEA Regulation.
Yes, this is clear, but not sure why you are raising this. This applies to my case as well as to your case. Our spouses/partners have to exercise treaty rights for us to have the right to reside. Agree.
Apparently there is a difference also in letters we received, as like I mention, mine has no word about re applying for FP if I want to re enter UK while in process of application for RC. Maybe HO has change this in resent time.
Yeah, it is strange that you have apparently received a different letter. But be sure this does not make your options any different.
I received my CoA around Xmass, so it could take a while. But like I said, I only left because of family emergency, I planed to get back to UK only after few days on 31.01.
It... really should not take that much longer now. Check the most recent timelines, really, chances people who applied at around the same time as you and/or received CoA at the same time as you, are starting to received/have received their RC.
And for me to sit and wait here is not an option as I need to get back to my wife and son as she can`t manage child care because of work.
I'm sorry to hear this, it does seem you ave gone through a very stressful thing. At this point, I believe you have two options:

a) Check the timelines, see if it's likely that you get this in the next week or so. Wait for your RC, then have your wife send it to you by secure, priority international post (DHL, FedEx).

b) If it looks like your RC will take a while, then, really, consider asking for your wife passport back (using the same link you used to get your own passport back), have your wife send it to you along with the other evidence you need (marriage certificate, joint bills, etc.) by secure, priority international post (DHL, FedEx), then apply for a Family Permit in your home country.

Good luck!
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

Amoniman
Newly Registered
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:03 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:18 am
There is no difference between a person who has documentation issued under the EEA Regulations and a person who is applying for the first time.

A Residence Card only certifies your status on the date of application. If you lose your Residence Card abroad or did not carry it with you, you will need to apply for a Family Permit de novo, as if you are applying for the first time, with all the proof that is required for a first time application. Similarly, as kamoe found out, if you lose your Residence Card within the UK, you need to apply for a Residence Card with all the proofs required for a first time application.

So, if you are stranded abroad,
a) apply for a Family Permit with all the same proof as required for a Residence Card OR
b) turn up at the Eurostar terminal at Paris or Brussels with your marriage certificate, your EEA citizen spouse and proof that s/he is either exercising treaty rights in the UK or has Permanent Residence in the UK (which is the proof that is required for a Family Permit /Residence Card). Be prepared for a long delay while the Border Force go through your documentation if you go down this route.
What do you mean there is no deference ? There are crucial differences between our two cases.

First I as direct family member of EU citizen automatically gained all rights under EEA Regulation as soon as I joined my wife in Member State ( UK in this case ) and no Home Office or Queen her selfe can take that away as long as my wife is consider as qualified person or if I don`t make some of those things listed for revoking those rights. So by the EEA Regulation I have right or entry as direct family member ( who is already resident in UK under same Regulation ) not because I have some document saying that, it because EEA Regulative said that. By Article 5(1)(4) and Article 10, I as direct family member not have to posses any valid visa or RC to enter UK, it is just upon me to demonstrate to UK Immigration Officer that I have right of entry under EEA Regulation ( just like I did comming back from Tenerife with expired Family Permit and no RC ). Getting back to the point that Residence Card is not mandatory for Direct family member as UK gov. said. Under EEA Regulation you don`t need to have a Family Permit to demonstrate your right of entry, but being that is free most family member apply for it. I seen cases people coming to UK border with out it and getting dependent ink spam instead.

Kamoe was in UK under UK Immigration regulation, not under EEA Regulation, so there is a big difference to star with. She applied and gained her Family Permit as extended family member and was granted entry based on that Family Permit. Extended family members don`t gain their rights automatically as direct family member, so she could not call upon Free Movement Directive Article 5(1)(4) or Article 10 and ask re entry. As I said, she left UK under UK immigration regulation.

Now getting back again to rut of this problem.
UK GOV gave me an option to have or not to have RC as direct family member but didn`t came up with with legal solution how will I exerciser my treaty Rights with out it. I`m not just talking about right of entry, it also effects my given right to work in UK.
One of proofs for employer is Residence Card. In case I don`t have it, it is upon me to demonstrate to employer that I`m direct family member of EU citizen with treaty right ( my passport, marriage certificate and proof that my wife is qualified person ). Even with this proofs, Home Office scares employers by not giving them statutory excuse from civil penalty's in case it s proven that I don`t right to work. 99% of employers will turn down me as a candidate as they don`t want unnecessary worries. Again breaching my given right to work just because I don`t posses RC.

You say solution is to re apply for FP, and that might be my quickest and only sure ticket back to UK. But I still don`t see it as only legal option for me.
If Home Office told me: " Yes, we know that we made legal black hole for direct family members with out residence card, unfortunately only way is to re apply for Family permit to gain access and board the plane" that would be that. I would knew that they were aware or this legal issue and that there is no other solution for it. But unfortunately, I got so many wrong and different answers from Home Office that I`m not convinced that FP is only solution. Even here at this post, people don`t recognize crucial differences about EEA Regulation that makes big difference.

Amoniman
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Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:56 pm

kamoe wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:24 pm
Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:36 am
I gained all my rights as direct family member under EEA Regulation before applying for RC ( witch was not mandatory for me as direct family member in the first place ).
Read secrets.simon's comment above.
You were under UK Immigration law ( point system ), so how many year you were resident in UK doen`t matter as you were not under EEA Regulation.
I never said it mattered. I was just answering your question about my immigration history, which, as I said, is completely irrelevant.

Bottom line is: you, me, or person X might have different backgrounds and immigration histories. But at the same point in time, we all three find ourselves in the situation of qualifying for right to reside as a Family Member of a EEA national (extended or not), have a RC pending application, and are stranded abroad.

We all three can apply for a Family Permit, as we all three qualify, and have the right, to receive this "Holly Grail" paper for free.

You might want to argue that you already 'acquired' the rights, but do read secret.simon's comment above. And, since you have already exhausted the right you have to travel without a visa (or "holy grail" paper) by showing your marriage certificate and wife passport (an option I didn't have as unmarried partner) and have been refused boarding, well, that puts us pretty much in the same position of having to apply for the Family Permit.
Even EU nationals must exercise their Treaty rights to be considered as qualified persons, so their Non EEA family members would derive trough them all these rights under EEA Regulation.
Yes, this is clear, but not sure why you are raising this. This applies to my case as well as to your case. Our spouses/partners have to exercise treaty rights for us to have the right to reside. Agree.
Apparently there is a difference also in letters we received, as like I mention, mine has no word about re applying for FP if I want to re enter UK while in process of application for RC. Maybe HO has change this in resent time.
Yeah, it is strange that you have apparently received a different letter. But be sure this does not make your options any different.
I received my CoA around Xmass, so it could take a while. But like I said, I only left because of family emergency, I planed to get back to UK only after few days on 31.01.
It... really should not take that much longer now. Check the most recent timelines, really, chances people who applied at around the same time as you and/or received CoA at the same time as you, are starting to received/have received their RC.
And for me to sit and wait here is not an option as I need to get back to my wife and son as she can`t manage child care because of work.
I'm sorry to hear this, it does seem you ave gone through a very stressful thing. At this point, I believe you have two options:

a) Check the timelines, see if it's likely that you get this in the next week or so. Wait for your RC, then have your wife send it to you by secure, priority international post (DHL, FedEx).

b) If it looks like your RC will take a while, then, really, consider asking for your wife passport back (using the same link you used to get your own passport back), have your wife send it to you along with the other evidence you need (marriage certificate, joint bills, etc.) by secure, priority international post (DHL, FedEx), then apply for a Family Permit in your home country.

Good luck!
Once again I`ll point out crucial difference and I`ll stop as it looks that I`m arguing and i know everyone mean well here :

You are right about you being in the situation of qualifying for right to reside as a Extended Family Member of a EEA national, having a RC pending application. That`s because you did`t have any rights under EEA Regulation prior of your application for RC in the UK.
On other hand, I had every right as Direct family member, who passed habitual Residence test ( when applied for Universal Credit ) and gained legal right to live in UK.

Me being denied from air companies isn`t proof that they were right, less that Family Permit is that "paper" that they are asking for. It just means that UK GOV put me in that position as they made this legal lop hole for direct family member with out RC. We will see what European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights will say about that.

Once again, thanks for your replies and for good wishes :)

kamoe
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Posts: 1294
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:03 pm
First I as direct family member of EU citizen automatically gained all rights under EEA Regulation as soon as I joined my wife in Member State ( UK in this case ) and no Home Office or Queen her selfe can take that away as long as my wife is consider as qualified person or if I don`t make some of those things listed for revoking those rights. So by the EEA Regulation I have right or entry as direct family member ( who is already resident in UK under same Regulation ) not because I have some document saying that, it because EEA Regulative said that. By Article 5(1)(4) and Article 10, I as direct family member not have to posses any valid visa or RC to enter UK, it is just upon me to demonstrate to UK Immigration Officer that I have right of entry under EEA Regulation ( just like I did comming back from Tenerife with expired Family Permit and no RC ). Getting back to the point that Residence Card is not mandatory for Direct family member as UK gov. said. Under EEA Regulation you don`t need to have a Family Permit to demonstrate your right of entry, but being that is free most family member apply for it. I seen cases people coming to UK border with out it and getting dependent ink spam instead.

Kamoe was in UK under UK Immigration regulation, not under EEA Regulation, so there is a big difference to star with. She applied and gained her Family Permit as extended family member and was granted entry based on that Family Permit. Extended family members don`t gain their rights automatically as direct family member, so she could not call upon Free Movement Directive Article 5(1)(4) or Article 10 and ask re entry. As I said, she left UK under UK immigration regulation.
All the above is true and you could have been allowed boarding. No one has said the contrary.

But the sad reality is that airlines do not operate like border control officials, and they are not obliged to let you board a plane. They have their own regulations, and -I believe- can legally refuse you. As a result, you were denied boarding. I'm not saying in any way that that is fair, but that is a fact and the reason you stated this post in the first place.

The point is not to argue if our cases are exactly the same or if there are differences, or if these differences are crucial. I believe secret.simon did not mean to say your rights are not automatic. Rights and actually having a document to prove your rights are very different things, as you corerctly describe further down.

We are merely discussing here possible solutions for you.
Now getting back again to rut of this problem.
UK GOV gave me an option to have or not to have RC as direct family member but didn`t came up with with legal solution how will I exerciser my treaty Rights with out it. I`m not just talking about right of entry, it also effects my given right to work in UK.
One of proofs for employer is Residence Card. In case I don`t have it, it is upon me to demonstrate to employer that I`m direct family member of EU citizen with treaty right ( my passport, marriage certificate and proof that my wife is qualified person ). Even with this proofs, Home Office scares employers by not giving them statutory excuse from civil penalty's in case it s proven that I don`t right to work. 99% of employers will turn down me as a candidate as they don`t want unnecessary worries. Again breaching my given right to work just because I don`t posses RC.
Yeap. Pretty messed up. But that's the way it is.
You say solution is to re apply for FP, and that might be my quickest and only sure ticket back to UK. But I still don`t see it as only legal option for me.
No one is saying is the only legal option. But it is probably the fastest one.
If Home Office told me: " Yes, we know that we made legal black hole for direct family members with out residence card, unfortunately only way is to re apply for Family permit to gain access and board the plane" that would be that.
This is a great example of honest subtitles for the Home Office (As in what you are really saying when you are saying something else). You just nailed it.
I would knew that they were aware or this legal issue and that there is no other solution for it. But unfortunately, I got so many wrong and different answers from Home Office that I`m not convinced that FP is only solution.
Again, no one is saying is the only solution; but one that, given you have already spent a month entangled with unsuccessful arguments, might be the quickest and cheapest at this point.
Even here at this post, people don`t recognize crucial differences about EEA Regulation that makes big difference.
That is a misinterpretation from your side.
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

kamoe
Respected Guru
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by kamoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:18 pm

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:56 pm
You are right about you being in the situation of qualifying for right to reside as a Extended Family Member of a EEA national, having a RC pending application. That`s because you did`t have any rights under EEA Regulation prior of your application for RC in the UK.
On other hand, I had every right as Direct family member, who passed habitual Residence test ( when applied for Universal Credit ) and gained legal right to live in UK.
You are mixing here the fact of having the right with having a document that proves that right. You had the right, I did not. yes, that is different and no one is arguing that. But we both were/are in a situation were we do not have a document to prove that right. And what you need now is a document to prove your right.
Me being denied from air companies isn`t proof that they were right,
No one is saying that.
less that Family Permit is that "paper" that they are asking for.
Think abut what you re saying here.

Air companies do not know UK or EU immigration inner-workings, and are generally after a physical document that gets them off-the hook in case there is a traveler with an issue. When they say "some paper" they actually don't know what they need to be asking, they are actually just telling you: Go and find me a paper, any paper, that says you have the right to enter/reside in the UK.

Guess what a Family Permit says?
We will see what European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights will say about that.
Or you could just apply for a free and quick document you qualify for.

This is more a question of moral justice for you, and that is understandable. But I members here tend to try and help find the quickest solution for people's problems.
My posts express my personal opinion, formed with the best of my knowledge, about the topics discussed in this forum. They do not constitute immigration advice.

secret.simon
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:36 pm

Amoniman wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:56 pm
We will see what European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights will say about that.
There is no human rights angle to this at all, so the ECtHR is unlikely to pick up this case.

As for the ECJ, yes, you can certainly take it to that level. To start with you will need to take the airline to court in an EEA member-state. That national court will need to then request the ECJ for a preliminary ruling on the matter. The whole case could be very expensive. But you will have fought for your (interpretation of your) rights and EU law will be made in your name.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

ljdebenedictis
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by ljdebenedictis » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:10 pm

Hi.

I’m a non EEA wife of a British citizen who lived in EU country hence I was able to move to UK. You may be a wife or husband of EU citizen and not British but we are both on the same boat here.

Yes family permit and residence permit is not mandatory as you have the right but this papers can make your life easier, easier for work, travelling etc. No one can take your right away but I was once denied boarding as I didn’t have the family permit after travelling back home. It was frustrating, spent thousands of euros, suffered stress but to help me enter again is I applied for family permit again even though my RC is pending. No problem at all, didn’t even wait for a long time, I managed to enter UK quickly.

I agree that we have different situations / cases etc but we all go through under EU regulations. If I were you, I will start to apply for family permit instead of arguing or stressing as it will not help you at all. If you applied form the very 1st day you asked for help from this forum, maybe you already receive the family permit.

All the suggestions they gave you are all good and right to be honest. I think you are want to hear what you want to hear. Sorry that you are going through this stressful time.

All the best for you sir. 😊

NatCam
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by NatCam » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:25 pm

@Amoniman, where do you come from?
Either your wife travels to your home country and back to the U.K. with you, or you have to apply for a Family permit. It is you who wants to live here, not the UK Government. It is your job to make it happen. The UK government doesn't owe you anything.
As to the rights -direct family members of British citizens, even with kids, do not get automatic rights to live here, they spend thousands to get entry to the U.K., and then stay. You are lucky in that respect because Family permit is free, the card only costs £65, you get it for 5 years - and then no worries.
If you think you don't need to prove your rights to anybody why did you apply for the card in the first place?
Even with a marriage certificate in hand and all other papers I wouldn't allow you to board - how do I know if your wife is still there? This is their logic.
I have 3 Family permits stamped in my passport even though I hold EU permanent residence card - all because I didn't want to cause problems to myself and my family and had to travel ALONE.
How did you manage to claim benefits?

Amoniman
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:58 pm

NatCam wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:25 pm
@Amoniman, where do you come from?
Either your wife travels to your home country and back to the U.K. with you, or you have to apply for a Family permit. It is you who wants to live here, not the UK Government. It is your job to make it happen. The UK government doesn't owe you anything.
As to the rights -direct family members of British citizens, even with kids, do not get automatic rights to live here, they spend thousands to get entry to the U.K., and then stay. You are lucky in that respect because Family permit is free, the card only costs £65, you get it for 5 years - and then no worries.
If you think you don't need to prove your rights to anybody why did you apply for the card in the first place?
Even with a marriage certificate in hand and all other papers I wouldn't allow you to board - how do I know if your wife is still there? This is their logic.
I have 3 Family permits stamped in my passport even though I hold EU permanent residence card - all because I didn't want to cause problems to myself and my family and had to travel ALONE.
How did you manage to claim benefits?
@NatCam - Do you hold UK Permanent Residence card or some other EU state ?

I˙m European.
Like I said, my wife came to Paris just to accompany me back to UK but yet again I was denied.

Second, I don`t want to live in UK - I already do live in UK since November 2017. therefor I`m resident of UK since then. I was granted Family Permit and I used it to join my wife for the first time.

UK government owes me my given rights by EEA Regulations as a direct family member of EU national, it is up to UK gov to deliver those rights to me automatically as EEA Regulation say.
They made this legal mess as they left me an option - to apply or not. In most, if not in all other EU states, it is MANDATORY to posses a Residence card as direct family member and that is only way to demonstrate and exercise those Treaty rights in those EU states.

I applied for residence card only because Home Office could not tell me, and they still don`t, as I sent them email 3 days ago with simple question:
- how can I, direct family member, UK resident since 2017, with expired Family Permit and ongoing application for Residence card, re enter UK without Residence Card, as UK government told me it is not mandatory to have it ?
Official answer from Home Office I got was:
- With regards to your enquirer, we are unable to advise you as to how you can re-enter the UK without a Visa or a Residence card
So they admitted that they don`t have answer for legal mess they made, by leaving it optional to apply for RC as direct family member.
They offered reapplying for Family Permit or to seek legal Immigration advice as an solution for this situation. That is almost same as if they told me to try to sneak in while no one is looking and hope that you don`t get caught. This is also an legal option, if I don`t get caught.

As a proof that my wife is still in UK and qualified person, and still in UK, I got an email from my wife`s employer stating that my wife is currently working with them.
I even got written document from UK Members of European Parliament, addressed to air companies with my name and my wife's name, stating that I am legal resident in UK, as spouse of EU national with Permanent residence in UK, and that I have legal rights to re enter UK as I am resident under EEA Regulation.

This case escalated to the point that my MP`s office is calling Home Office in past 2 weeks, bunch news desks as well and even they can`t get a answer from Home Office how can I re enter UK with out RC. Like I said in my previous post, if Home Office firmly told me: As direct family member there is no other way to re enter UK without RC but to reapply for Family Permit, I would have been home with my family 2 weeks ago.

I could claim benefits because I passed my Habitual Residence test when I joined my wife`s ongoing Universal Credit claim. Therefor got in writing that I gained my right to reside in UK.

And at the end, I applied for Family Permit last week as I don`t have anymore time to waist, waiting for other legal solution. I just hope application will be dealt more quickly as I waited 21 days when I applied for the first time. If not, I`ll have to consider that sneaking while no one is looking option as solution :)

Amoniman
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by Amoniman » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:27 pm

ljdebenedictis wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:10 pm
Hi.

I’m a non EEA wife of a British citizen who lived in EU country hence I was able to move to UK. You may be a wife or husband of EU citizen and not British but we are both on the same boat here.

Yes family permit and residence permit is not mandatory as you have the right but this papers can make your life easier, easier for work, travelling etc. No one can take your right away but I was once denied boarding as I didn’t have the family permit after travelling back home. It was frustrating, spent thousands of euros, suffered stress but to help me enter again is I applied for family permit again even though my RC is pending. No problem at all, didn’t even wait for a long time, I managed to enter UK quickly.

I agree that we have different situations / cases etc but we all go through under EU regulations. If I were you, I will start to apply for family permit instead of arguing or stressing as it will not help you at all. If you applied form the very 1st day you asked for help from this forum, maybe you already receive the family permit.

All the suggestions they gave you are all good and right to be honest. I think you are want to hear what you want to hear. Sorry that you are going through this stressful time.

All the best for you sir. 😊
I know that people are trying to help, and I appreciate that. And I applied for Family permit again.

And I`m far from arguing, just stating facts, for other people who will came to this post looking for a answer to their similar or exactly the same problem. So far, there was no reply on this post from person who was in exactly same position as me:
- Non EU spouse of EU national ( with Permanent residence in UK ), with expired Family permit and ongoing Residence card application, trying to board plane and reenter UK.

As you said, we all go under same EU Regulation.
Our problem is ( was ) the same: reentry to UK, but our status, under that same EU Regulative is crucially different in some point:
- You were Non EU spouse of British national who returned to live in UK
- kamoe was Non EU unmarried partner of EU national, living in UK under UK Immigration law
- and I`m spouse of EU national living in UK as direct family member under EEA Regulation

We may be taking same elevator ride to get to that EEA Regulation, but floor that will open to us and allow us entry is different.
Thanks for you wishes :)

NatCam
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Re: Non EEA direct family member with no Residence Card - denied boarding back to UK

Post by NatCam » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:47 am

@Amoniman - EU permanent resident card issued in Greece. We lived there for 11 years. Before that I had Indefinite leave to enter.

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