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Retention of Rights - Quick Question

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

bobobo
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Retention of Rights - Quick Question

Post by bobobo » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:52 am

Hi All, I am looking for some help and guidance on my case. I was married to an EEA national for 3.5 years before we divorced. Now the divorce has been granted and I have the following documents.

- Decree Absolute and Marriage Certificate.
- Proof that me and the EEA national were working from before the divorce right until the Decree Absolute was granted (Payslips and Employment letter)
- Proof of Co-habitation in the form of Bank, Credit card statements, Utility Bills, Tenancy Agreement, Joint Health, Contents and Travel insurance, Bank loan documents etc...

I however do not have my Ex's passport. Will I need to submit this to the HO as well. I had been granted a Resident Card for 5 years (about 3 years back). Will these documents be enough or would the HO need to see my Ex's Passport as well. The HO take such a long time that He doesnt want to give his passport away for such a long time.

I know this is a grey area and hence would need whatever advice I can get on this. Also would anyone be kind enough to let me now if I would need any further docs. (All 4 years spent in the UK)

Please feel free to contact me if you need any further information to help me out.

Thanks for any advice that you can give me.

B

dublin3
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Post by dublin3 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:23 am

HO should know that its impossible to provide someone's passport whom you are not in contact with but knowing that fact they still require that.
yesterday I was reading on this forum that one guy had provided everything but his Ex wife's passport or ID and his case was refused..
I guess you will be granted PR but after a lot of hassles but its not for sure if you are lucky you might get it without your Ex passport or ID.
Good luck !

vegeta_2009
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Posts: 111
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Re: Retention of Rights - Quick Question

Post by vegeta_2009 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:40 am

bobobo wrote:Hi All, I am looking for some help and guidance on my case. I was married to an EEA national for 3.5 years before we divorced. Now the divorce has been granted and I have the following documents.

- Decree Absolute and Marriage Certificate.
- Proof that me and the EEA national were working from before the divorce right until the Decree Absolute was granted (Payslips and Employment letter)
- Proof of Co-habitation in the form of Bank, Credit card statements, Utility Bills, Tenancy Agreement, Joint Health, Contents and Travel insurance, Bank loan documents etc...

I however do not have my Ex's passport. Will I need to submit this to the HO as well. I had been granted a Resident Card for 5 years (about 3 years back). Will these documents be enough or would the HO need to see my Ex's Passport as well. The HO take such a long time that He doesnt want to give his passport away for such a long time.

I know this is a grey area and hence would need whatever advice I can get on this. Also would anyone be kind enough to let me now if I would need any further docs. (All 4 years spent in the UK)

Please feel free to contact me if you need any further information to help me out.

Thanks for any advice that you can give me.

B
it became clear to me in the last couple of days that the HO will require the eea national's passport which doesnt make any sense whatsover and i dont think it will hold up in court if you were to come to that. why would anyone give a passport to someone they are not related to anymore and were animosity definitely exist.

just out of interest how are you applying for this? are you just sending a letter or you filling in EEA4 form?

bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:47 am

I am just writing a letter to the HO giving the facts as I need to wait for another year or so before I can apply for PR.

vegeta_2009
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Post by vegeta_2009 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:47 am

bobobo wrote:I am just writing a letter to the HO giving the facts as I need to wait for another year or so before I can apply for PR.
are you also sending the documents now or in 1 year time? surely they wont be asking you for the spouse;s passport 1 year after divorce?

when i will be in the same situation i think i will just send them as soon as possible because waiting till your 5 years are up is too risky!

datuchi
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Post by datuchi » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:42 pm


bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:53 am

Hi Datuchi,
Does this mean that I will not be able to Retain my Rights of Residence if I cannot provide my Ex's ID. To be honest if my ex asked me for my ID, I wouldnt give it and vice versa. I had provided all this information to the HO when I applied for the Resident Card initially.

Please Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the EEA regulation clearly states that the HO would want to see the EEA nationals id, if they have NOT issued a RC previously. Am I correct in thinking this.

I have all the proof of co-habitation, proof of EEA exercising right from initiation to Decree Absolute, I would think this should suffice. Also what if the EEA national leaves the country and goes now, does this mean I have no rights...Would a solicitor help in this case.

Sorry for being a pain, but I seriously need some sound advice.

Thanks

datuchi
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Re: Retention of Rights - Quick Question

Post by datuchi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:05 pm

Everyth. you stated fits in perfectly. You just need to keep working yourself until the 5 years from your "marriage" are up (not until the expiry of your RC).

I think if you submit all the docs you listed and then even a copy of EEA's ID(not really required), this should suffice for your application. The main thing is the proof of your husband working when the divorce was initiated. The HO is NOT allowed to demand your partner's ID, as it's obvious that this is not possible. The problem is that, those stupid Regulations 2006 are worded in such a way, together with the caseworker instructions, that it suggests that the EEA national's ID is required.
Just another proof of legislative incompetence, attempting to trasnpose the Directive 2004/38 into the UK, without having properly read through and/or understood the consequences of misinterpretation.

When the time comes, you will state that all you have to prove is that:
1) your EEA partner was exercising rights at the time of divorce;
2) married over 3 yrs;
3) and 1 year in the UK.
4) the remaining 1.5 yrs you yourself worked etc.


if they wish to find out any more info, they should look up your EEA2 application which contained all the relevant info. Your solicitor will help you with this one.
Make sure you write a letter to the HO updating them of your status!



bobobo wrote:Hi All, I am looking for some help and guidance on my case. I was married to an EEA national for 3.5 years before we divorced. Now the divorce has been granted and I have the following documents.

- Decree Absolute and Marriage Certificate.
- Proof that me and the EEA national were working from before the divorce right until the Decree Absolute was granted (Payslips and Employment letter)
- Proof of Co-habitation in the form of Bank, Credit card statements, Utility Bills, Tenancy Agreement, Joint Health, Contents and Travel insurance, Bank loan documents etc...

I however do not have my Ex's passport. Will I need to submit this to the HO as well. I had been granted a Resident Card for 5 years (about 3 years back). Will these documents be enough or would the HO need to see my Ex's Passport as well. The HO take such a long time that He doesnt want to give his passport away for such a long time.

I know this is a grey area and hence would need whatever advice I can get on this. Also would anyone be kind enough to let me now if I would need any further docs. (All 4 years spent in the UK)

Please feel free to contact me if you need any further information to help me out.

Thanks for any advice that you can give me.

B
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:36 pm

Thanks for the advice Datuchi, Just one last thing. Would anyone know of a Good Solicitor who has successfully dealt with these kind of cases before.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

datuchi
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Post by datuchi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:08 pm

i ll c if i can find one, will let u know
bobobo wrote:Thanks for the advice Datuchi, Just one last thing. Would anyone know of a Good Solicitor who has successfully dealt with these kind of cases before.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

vegeta_2009
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Post by vegeta_2009 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:16 pm

i think i said in another thread that the best way to do this is through a solicitor, its too much of risky going it alone especially when there is no definite procedure/application to solves cases like these, the regulation itself is so vague and it could be interpreted in so many different ways.

it would be goof Datuchi if we have a good solicitors' firm to help up with this.



i think we should ask admin to have a sticky thread regarding the retention of rights so we can records people's experience.

datuchi
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Post by datuchi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:17 pm

Guys, I have pee amd you :))) the info of an adviser
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

jude
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hallo

Post by jude » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:46 am

datuchi Can you remove that 1 year in uk coz HO is not asking any one about that requirement . I know a lots of people are confusing about that even though HO ask people different requirment but never proof of living togther. Also why do u think HO would want to see ur X passport ? when u applied for ur stay the first time did u not show them ur X passport ? if so the no need for that , if not honestly they would want to see it now.
hallo

datuchi
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Re: hallo

Post by datuchi » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:53 pm

No?!



jude wrote:datuchi Can you remove that 1 year in uk coz HO is not asking any one about that requirement .
None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

jude
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Re: hallo

Post by jude » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:29 pm

datuchi How many people you know HO has ask them to sent proof that , they were living in the uk atleast a year? I understand that , this is 1 of the requirment but they never ask anyone........ And they would never ask unless it was fruad marraige before.
hallo

bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:49 am

Hi Jude and Datuchi - Thanks for your input on the situation, to be honest I would agree with Jude, In my case I provided the HO with the EEA Nationals Passport and WRS when I applied for an RC couple of years back. In all honesty showing proof of co-habitation, EEA national working whilst the Divorce proceedings were going on until Decree Absolute is fine, But I do feel that asking for the EX's passport after divorce is outrageous and maybe a way to refuse the application , which is being used by HO!!

Even the EEA regulations says this (Not Very Clearly though) that the HO would want to see the EEA nationals Passport if an RC has NOT been issued by the HO earlier, which would make sense.

I am still not sure where I stand with all this....


bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:50 am

Hi Jude and Datuchi - Thanks for your input on the situation, to be honest I would agree with Jude, In my case I provided the HO with the EEA Nationals Passport and WRS when I applied for an RC couple of years back. In all honesty showing proof of co-habitation, EEA national working whilst the Divorce proceedings were going on until Decree Absolute is fine, But I do feel that asking for the EX's passport after divorce is outrageous and maybe a way to refuse the application , which is being used by HO!!

Even the EEA regulations says this (Not Very Clearly though) that the HO would want to see the EEA nationals Passport if an RC has NOT been issued by the HO earlier, which would make sense.

I am still not sure where I stand with all this....


datuchi
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Post by datuchi » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:43 pm

Just to be clear:

1) Bobo- WRS is proof of your EEA partner working for at least 1 year;
2) the 3(+1 inside UK) year of being married AND in the Member State is relevant to the retention of Residence and not your initial application, where 1 year requirement was applicable, but for other reasons.

3) Jude, I do not know hoards of people applying and every single intricacy of their applications. But gather my knowledge through reading primary and secondary legislation together with examples from this forum and my own past exeperience. The fact that you pick up on a detail which is important and tell Bobo to ignore this clear requirement is inexcusable. And the fact that you waste my time making me reply to your stupid comments drives me crazy!

The 1 year in the UK is a legal requirement, and to ignore it when advising someone, would be negligent and stupid (which you suggested).

What if the HO suddenly decides to ask for the proof of living (and not necessarily together, but in the UK in general) in the UK for 1 year. Will BOBOBO reply by saying that he was advised on the forum, by "jude", who is strangely a man, that the HO would not ask for it?

Finally, the fact that bobobo has that WRS card and certif proves that they did indeed live in the UK for 1 year, so no need to stress about it at all.

Just keep on to your own RC/PR tight and don't think you are an expert helping people on the basis of your personal experience in 2004!





datuchi How many people you know HO has ask them to sent proof that , they were living in the uk atleast a year? I understand that , this is 1 of the requirment but they never ask anyone........ And they would never ask unless it was fruad marraige before.[/u wrote:
_________________

bobobo wrote:Hi Jude and Datuchi - Thanks for your input on the situation, to be honest I would agree with Jude, In my case I provided the HO with the EEA Nationals Passport and WRS when I applied for an RC couple of years back. In all honesty showing proof of co-habitation, EEA national working whilst the Divorce proceedings were going on until Decree Absolute is fine, But I do feel that asking for the EX's passport after divorce is outrageous and maybe a way to refuse the application , which is being used by HO!!

Even the EEA regulations says this (Not Very Clearly though) that the HO would want to see the EEA nationals Passport if an RC has NOT been issued by the HO earlier, which would make sense.

I am still not sure where I stand with all this....

None of the advice/opinion is expressed with the view of assuming responsibility as to its accuracy. Anyone intending to rely on any advice/opinion should seek independent legal advice before acting upon it.

jude
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Post by jude » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:49 pm

Datuchi the is no point abusing me honestly. HO only ask you to proof the 1 year of living togther only when you are applying for permanent stay. I understand as I mentioned is 1 of the requirment when you divorce but they never ask that, as long you have a divorce certificate, ur X was working at the time of divorce , you are working that fine .
I am still not sure where I stand with all this....

[/u][/quote][/quote]
hallo

bobobo
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Post by bobobo » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:16 am

Hi Datuchi/Jude - I saw a post from 4Real: The good thing is that the letter sent by the HO below doesnt ask for the EEA nationals Passport or ID card in case of a divorce. Datuchi was correct as they have asked for proof of co-habitation. Finally something positive....

4real wrote:Hi everybody,

We (me & mum) have submit all the document requested by the HO except the decree of absolute that was just issued by the court. Then I recieve a letter from the HO dated back 30 November 2009. Which says that we sholud do as below, can someone please explain what this means.

Thank you for your client's application for the issuing of of permanent residence in the United Kingdom as a European Economic Area (EEA) national/non-EEA family member. If you have not already done so, I should be grateful if the following documents are forwarded:

A valid passport or national identity card for the (EEA) national applicants

Valid passports for any non-EEA national applications

Birth certificates to show that any dependent applications are related to the EEA national applicant as claimed (if applicable)

Evidence to show that the EEA national has exercised treaty rights in the United Kingdom for 5 years, such as payslips, employer's letters, P60 tax forms, school / college letters, accountant's letters, audited accounts, etc.

Evidence to show that the EEA national is presently exercising treaty rights, such as an employer's letter or recent wage slips / college letter, etc.

Evidence to show that all dependents have completed a total of 5 years residence in the UK, such as payslips, employer's letters, P60 tax forms, school / college letters, accountant's letter, audited accounts. etc.

If you are applying following a divorce from your EEA sponsor please provide us with the following:

A valid passport for you

Evidence that you are ceasing to be a family member of the EEA national by providing a decree absolute (divorce).

Evidence of when divorce proceedings were initiated.

Evidence that the EEA national was excercising treaty rights on the date the marriage was terminated.

Evidence since date of divorce that you are worker, self emplyed or self sufficient person.

Evidence prior to initiation of divorce proceedings thatthe marriage lasted for at least 3 years and that you and the EEA National resided together in the UK for at least 1 years during the duration of the marriage.

Evidence that you have legal custody of any children of the former EEA spouse.

Evidence that you have a right of access to any children of the EEA National under the age of 18 and a court has ordered that such access must take place in the UK.

Evidence of any difficult circumstances to warrant a continued right of residence.

Evidence that the EEA National execirsed treaty rights in November 2004 to the date the marriage was terminated.

Evidence that the EEA National resided in the UK since November 2004 to the date marriage was terminated.

If you have already supplied any of the above mentioned documents, you do not need to submit copies or duplicates.
These documents will allow us to begin consideration of your application. A caseworker will cantact you if further documents are required.

To enable the application to be considered properly we need all the above documents, and we believe that it would be reasonable to receive this within 21 days unless we are advised of a good reason justifying an extension.
[/b]

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