Experiences with Cross-Examination at First-tier Tribunal (FLR FP)

Hi All,

- Are there any success stories where the FLR FP application (first time) was decided well before the 12-month timeline?
- Also is it normal for HO to misplace documents? As i got an email from them asking for consent forms which were all in the bundle properly labelled and page numbered.

Thanks for taking time to read

Apologise just posting HO email which raises further questions:

Thank you for submitting your application for Leave to Remain as a spouse.
We are currently assessing your application. We are unable to conclude the application at this time, as we require
additional information.
Please could you provide:
Part 1 and 2 consent forms.
Please send the document(s) as a scanned attachment within 14 days to this email, otherwise your application will go
out of normal Service Standard to: FHR2@homeoffice.gov.uk quoting your application reference in the subject line.
Please attach the document directly to the email as we are unable to access links to files hosted on sites such as
Dropbox™ or Google Drive™. Please note that multiple files may be too large for our inbox to accept, in this instance
please split the attachments over more than one email as required.
Please note failure to reply to this email within 14 days may result in further delays to a decision being made and/or
may result in the application being made on the basis of the evidence already provided. This may result in the
application being refused in accordance with the immigration rules.

Questions:
- My FLR FP is complicated due to an overstay issue. But apart from that we do fulfil all the requirements such as financial etc but that doesn't matter as it would've taken 12 months regardless. But this email states that they're considering this under *Normal Service Standard* which is a bit confusing. Anyone can shed some light on this if they have come across this before?

I would appreciate it if someone can shed light on the above email. Many thanks

Given your immigration history I would very much doubt that your application will be decided quickly unless it goes straight to refusal.
If the Home Office refused the EUSS then it will be a massive challenge to be readily granted FLR(FP).
Your overstaying and criminal activities are not major barriers under FLR(FP) so those in their own right are not going cause a mandatory refusal.
The concern I would have is why are your going down this route as opposed to say spouse visa?

Hi Frontier,

- Correct on the first point regarding the timeline. This email just gave me a bit of a whirlwind!
- So EUSS was rejected due to eligibility, not suitability, which HO confirmed. We weren't married before Brexit day, which was the issue even though we had two years of cohabitation.
- The issue is that I was born in Saudi Arabia but originally was a Pakistani citizen, and I never went to Pakistan. For Spouse visa route, I can't go back to Saudi Arabia as my resident permit expired, and in Pakistan, we have no one to go to and stay for a couple of months. It was a massive risk going to Pakistan and living in a hotel until the decision came, which could take months, the same as FLR FP in the UK. hence the decision to go for FLR FP.

Hi All,

Unfortunately, the bad news is that my application, submitted on 4th Feb, was refused within 3 months or so! This is obviously quite a setback and has me stressed. So, I hope you guys can give me options and also tell me if the appeal in court worked for other cases similar to my case.

Note: I cannot go back as I was born in Saudi Arabia, And originally a Pakistani national by birth. I had never lived in Pakistan until I moved to Saudi Arabia.

Summary & Points Raised within the Refusal:

Immigration History:
- Entered the UK on 4th December 2009 with a Tier 4 Student visa valid until 28th April 2011.
- Refused Settlement under the EU Exit Scheme on 7th February 2022.
- Lodged and withdrew an appeal between February 2022 and March 2023.
- Current application made on 1st February 2024, deemed 12 years, 9 months, and 4 days Out of Time since the last valid visa.

Family Life Considerations:
- Relationship with Partner acknowledged.
- Application considered under the partner route of Appendix FM.
- Claimed there were no insurmountable obstacles to living outside the UK or significant hardships preventing relocation to Pakistan.

Suitability:
- No grounds for refusal on suitability found. (Overstay and criminal conviction was not major factor)

Eligibility Requirements:
- Relationship requirement met.
- Immigration status requirement not met due to lack of valid leave in the UK since April 2011.
- Financial requirement met.
- English language requirement met.

EX.1 Requirement:
- Consideration of exemptions under EX.1 for overcoming certain eligibility requirements.
- Determined that EX.1 does not apply as no insurmountable obstacles or serious hardships that cannot be overcome were demonstrated.

Private Life Considerations:
- Application also considered under private life rules.
- Failed to qualify for the 10-year private life route due to not having lived continuously in the UK for at least 20 years and the presence of significant obstacles to integration into Pakistan.

Exceptional Circumstances:
- No exceptional circumstances found that would render refusal a breach of Article 8 due to unjustifiably harsh consequences.

Overall Decision:
- Application refused under paragraphs related to both the 5 and 10-year partner routes and the 10-year private life route.

Future Options:

- Suggestion that it is reasonable for the applicant or the partner to relocate to Pakistan. (We did submit that partner won't even get the family visa to Pakistan due to civil partnership and we didn't had islamic ceremony. Civil partnership is not recognised under Pakistan law they didn't even mention that at all.)
- Mentioned the possibility of obtaining the correct Entry Clearance to return to the UK.


So please if you can spare sometime that would be much appreciated @Frontier: You were right bud! Spot on i would say lol (If i won't laugh at this situation i will cry tbh)

samwise1 wrote: ↑

Fri May 03, 2024 5:24 pm

Future Options:

- Suggestion that it is reasonable for the applicant or the partner to relocate to Pakistan. (We did submit that partner won't even get the family visa to Pakistan due to civil partnership and we didn't had islamic ceremony. Civil partnership is not recognised under Pakistan law they didn't even mention that at all.)
- Mentioned the possibility of obtaining the correct Entry Clearance to return to the UK.


So please if you can spare sometime that would be much appreciated @Frontier: You were right bud! Spot on i would say lol (If i won't laugh at this situation i will cry tbh)

The most obvious options are:

- Go to Pakistan, rent a flat for a few months and reapply for a spouse visa, flats are not that expensive. Do you speak Urdu?
(I am a non-Muslim EU national married to a man originally from Pakistan, we never had any religious ceremony and I never had any trouble getting a visa for Pakistan. Why did you go for a Civil Partnership specifically and not for a register office marriage? Anyway, I would not particularly recommend to take your partner along, I used to live in Pakistan and it´s super hard to live there as a visibly foreign woman. It nearly broke our marriage - but none of these are Problems HO has to consider. You both are adults and made a conscious choice to get married under problematic circumstances.)

- Your EU partner could move to an EU country other than Romania and you could join your partner under EU freedom of movement. Ireland comes to mind because you mentioned somewhere that you have family there, but they are inundated with such applications and not particularly happy about it, as far as I know, so that could be again difficult. Malta? Cyprus? If English is a deciding factor.

- Did you finish your Masters? If so, what is stopping you from applying for jobs somewhere in the world where you might qualify and your partner could be the trailing spouse? The responsibility/ability to qualify for living somewhere should not solely fall on your partner.

Hi ALKB,

You made valid points. But we went through literally or most likely every point that you raised before we made the FLR FP application. It was a lot of money spent, so we had to make sure we were doing the right thing.

First Point
- Renting in Pakistan with no support and then getting stuck with no guarantee of getting a visa, at least here, we both have each other's support. I speak broken Urdu as my life was shaped as an Arabic in Saudi.
The issue is that even though you didn't have an Islamic ceremony, you still got married. The Pakistan embassy in London refused to give my partner a family visa as we're not married and are civil partners. We went for civil partnership as she is a hardcore Christian, and I didn't want to push her to change her religion. That was wrong before me unless she wanted to do that herself.
- Yes, Agreed she will not survive there. We did extensive research on Pakistan between us and obviously with people who lived there as Christians or foreigners.

Second Point:
- We considered going to Romania, getting an EU permit, and then applying for the UK. Is that even possible from the UK here? (I'm an overstayer) (I don't think they will let me, tbh)
- Yes, I agree Ireland has got an influx!

Third point:
- They didn't let me finish my Master's here (As soon as I became an overstayer, I Couldn't finish classes, and exams were also halted)

It's absolutely bonkers that I've seen so many success stories in similar cases involving (Long overstays and criminal conviction and the same country also) So I'm just gobsmacked...

Thank you tho for taking the time to respond Good points you raised.

Forgot,

- If i go back to Pakistan and apply we won't meet the financial requirement now! That is another issue which we had to consider we managed to apply before the salary threshold got increased.

Not seeing any option other than an appeal. I believe there is a very limited chance of success at appeal.
You have explored the options available to you and have pursued the most viable and highest potential success routes without success. There is no obvious route that can be pursued.
You might end up remaining in the UK in that void of not being removed but not having leave until you get to 20 years illegally in the UK.

samwise1 wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2024 10:33 pm

First Point
- Renting in Pakistan with no support and then getting stuck with no guarantee of getting a visa, at least here, we both have each other's support. I speak broken Urdu as my life was shaped as an Arabic in Saudi.
The issue is that even though you didn't have an Islamic ceremony, you still got married. The Pakistan embassy in London refused to give my partner a family visa as we're not married and are civil partners. We went for civil partnership as she is a hardcore Christian, and I didn't want to push her to change her religion. That was wrong before me unless she wanted to do that herself.
- Yes, Agreed she will not survive there. We did extensive research on Pakistan between us and obviously with people who lived there as Christians or foreigners.

A register office marriage does not require any change of religion nor does it involve any sort of religious element. But what´s done is done, I guess.

My husband spent his entire childhood and youth in KSA but had to attend a Pakistani school, Arabic school was not a legal option. Has that changed? I think he might be about 10ish years older than you.

No aunties left in Pakistan? I understand not wanting to take the risk to go there if you do not meet the financial requirement.

samwise1 wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2024 10:33 pm

Second Point:
- We considered going to Romania, getting an EU permit, and then applying for the UK. Is that even possible from the UK here? (I'm an overstayer) (I don't think they will let me, tbh)
- Yes, I agree Ireland has got an influx!

In Romania, domestic Romanian immigration law would apply to you, and I don´t know much about that. I think you are simply too late for a European pathway and all the requirements for UK spouse visa would apply to an application lodged at the UK Embassy in Romania, including the financial requirement.

You could still use EU freedom of movement if she would relocate to any other EU country (one she does NOT hold citizenship of), but that would probably mean a permanent move out of the UK as rules and legislation stand at this point in time.

A future change in rules or your circumstances is of course possible and may or may not open doors that do not exist at the moment.

samwise1 wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2024 10:33 pm

Third point:
- They didn't let me finish my Master's here (As soon as I became an overstayer, I Couldn't finish classes, and exams were also halted)

What have yoou done to support yourself in the last decade or so? How about online university?

If it´s not just a case of "I want to live with my partner" but "I want to live with my partner in the UK", then I agree that an appeal, or if that is unuccessful, living in the UK illegally for 20 years, will be the only way.

If at that point this option is still available.

Do you have a contingency plan in case you are removed to Pakistan?

samwise1 wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2024 10:33 pm

- Yes, Agreed she will not survive there. We did extensive research on Pakistan between us and obviously with people who lived there as Christians or foreigners.

Have you menioned the potential discrimination that you and your spouse are likely to encounter if you relocated to Pakistan? There's country guidance that HO uses when deciding asylum&Human Right applications that's very helpful.

The Home Office will consider any other EU country, Romania or Pakistan as points of return depending on circumstances. There is no barrier as far as the Home Office is concerned for a return to Pakistan that prevent the individual being returned. It is him and him alone that is being removed.

Frontier Mole wrote: ↑

Mon May 06, 2024 7:37 pm

The Home Office will consider any other EU country, Romania or Pakistan as points of return depending on circumstances. There is no barrier as far as the Home Office is concerned for a return to Pakistan that prevent the individual being returned. It is him and him alone that is being removed.

In my decision letter HO mentions that it would be unjustifiably harsh for me AND the sponsor to leave the UK (and live in Russia), so I assumed that HO also considers the interest of the sponsoring spouse. Or, rather, considers whether we could continue family life in the country of my citizenship (both of us).

It is case by case, country by country

Hi All,

I applied for FLR FP, and that was rejected, but then we went for an appeal. I could see my status online and get a share code, etc.

But since the refusal, they still need to update the status online, and it's showing now that it has been refused. But we have appealed and also have got confirmation of it.

- Has anyone had a similar problem where they had to hound the home office to get their status as pending appeal so we can at least show that the right to work is extended?
- Any email address or any info/advice/suggestion?
- Unfortunately, I have to admit that dealing with customer service has been quite frustrating. They often seem to be clueless about the situation and are not very helpful at all.

Any help will be much appreciated

Hi All,

I need urgent advice on whether this has happened previously with others and what I can do in this scenario. What others to do or get this sorted.

An ECS check was conducted, and it came back as inconclusive as per HO; they don't have the application in their system. But they should know that the appeal has been submitted, etc. I've got an acceptance email from the tribunal for the appeal.

What can I do in this situation?

Much appreciated

As you are an overstayer, you don't have the right to work whether you have an appeal pending or not.

Simply submitting an appeal for a refused out of time application doesn't give you any legal status.

An appeal or admin review only extends existing leave, if the application was made in-time, refused and the resulting appeal or admin review was made in time.

That is to say that existing leave is extended during an appeal process. An appeal after many years of overstaying (and some dubious paperwork) does absolutely nothing for your legal status.

That is why the status returned by the Home Office is correct.

Hi Both,

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions. Appreciated.

These questions are not only to vent my frustration about the situation but also to ensure I can support my family. I know not everyone sees it the same way, but that's okay. I do appreciate the time you guys spent answering the matter in the post.

I came across 3 people who were given discretionary RTW during their FLR FP (overstayers).

Hi All,

Just a quick debate on this point: How effective are these letters ?

Does anyone have any positive or negative stories/views/opinions?

Much appreciated on your input

Which visa is this with regards to? Are both parties in the UK or is one party abroad? What were the grounds for refusal?

Family/Friends/Community Letters would be, at best, mildly persuasive. But you would need more foundational proof of a relationship (shared financial resources, regular contact if the couple live separately, income proof, etc).

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:19 pm

Which visa is this with regards to? Are both parties in the UK or is one party abroad? What were the grounds for refusal?

Family/Friends/Community Letters would be, at best, mildly persuasive. But you would need more foundational proof of a relationship (shared financial resources, regular contact if the couple live separately, income proof, etc).

Search the users multiple other topics and the dilemma they have.

secret.simon wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:19 pm

Which visa is this with regards to? Are both parties in the UK or is one party abroad? What were the grounds for refusal?

Family/Friends/Community Letters would be, at best, mildly persuasive. But you would need more foundational proof of a relationship (shared financial resources, regular contact if the couple live separately, income proof, etc).

Hi Simon,

- FLR FP Appeal submitting bundle, Both parties in UK(Partner settled, Me overstayer). Every single proof available.

- All eligibilty met except overstaying part, They're essentially saying go back and make an application. But barristers are making it clearly if he goes back he is bound to be rejected due to this: https://www.ein.org.uk/blog/previous-br ... plications
- Understood on the point you raised: mildly persuasive (I have extensive community service and have got all letters from societies and community clubs)
- My partners visa got rejected to my home country due to our civil partnership, And Refusal letter was mute on it and just said you can continue your family life there.

In essence this is the crux of the story now.

Hi All,

This is a desperate plea if that is okay.

I have an upcoming First-tier Tribunal appeal hearing for FLR FP. My partner is feeling quite anxious about the prospect of cross-examination during the hearing. I would greatly appreciate if members could share:

• Their experiences of being cross-examined as an appellant's partner at the First-tier Tribunal

• The types of questions that were asked during cross-examination

• Any advice for managing nerves and preparing effectively

• Approximately how long the cross-examination lasted

• Whether your partner was also cross-examined

My partner and I want to be as prepared as possible while keeping anxiety levels manageable. Any insights from those who have been through this process would be very helpful.

Highly appreciated