EEA4 PR - CORRUPTION - NO MAN'S LAND

HI EVERYONE

I PRESUME THAT MANY OF YOU ARE IN THE SAME SITUATION. I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR MY EEA PR 6 MONTHS NOW.....I AM GOING MAD AND ITS TOO STRESSFULL, I HAVE PROVIDED ALL THE DOCUMENTS REQUIRED, WENT THROUGH THE LEGAL WAY BUT IT SEEMS THAT THEY WANT US TO GO DIFFERENT WAY ....

I WAS SPEAKING TO A FRIEND WHO WORKS IN THE HOME OFFICE THE OTHER DAY AND HE SAID THEY IT IS SOO CORRUMPT, THEY DOING IT ON PURPOSE TO MAKE PEOPLE PAY.....

THE BEST BIT: HE PHONED HIS COLLEGUE AND TOLD HIM ABOUT MY SITUATION, THE PHONE WAS ON LOUD SPEAKER, I WAS LISTENING AND AT MY ASTONISHEMENT HE TOLD HIM THAT I CAN HAVE MY PASSPORT STAMPED WITHIN AWEEK BUT IT WOULD COST ME BETWEEN £2K - £5K.

WHA SHOKED ME ISTHAT THE GUY SAID THAT I DIDNT NEED TO PAY ANYTHING UNTIL I GET MY PASSPORT WHICH MEANS THAT ITS TRUE. I AM THINING OF GETING THE MEDIA INVOLVED BUT BIT CAUTIOUS AS IT MAY BACKFIRE.

PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD OF WHAT THEM BASTARDS ARE DOING.

why dont you ask them to do it and then refuse to pay or u could just have more patience . pls dnt get the media involved cos they reshuffle everything and it will take even longer .
i dnt mind paying i just submitted mine two wks ago and am dreading the wait.

mind you my bro just got his back and it took about ten mths so bit more waiting am afraid.

I think someone is pulling your chain.

There is a backlog; it is taking way longer than it should do. BUT pulling out a queued application and shoving it through the system early is going to get noticed. Everything is done electronically and monitored to death, it is easy to see if there is an abuse pattern. Someone pulling out apps from batches not being dealt with will show up like a beacon.
Given there is no money up front do you really think any criminal is going to rely on an "after service payment" get serious!

One question - what accent did the HO person have?

till Aug there was a 7 month Backlog. but, it has just reached the 10 month limit. and since holiday season is approaching it might cross over to 11 and 12 month also. The home office should atleast inform the applicants abt the backlog. Their website says that applications should be decided in 6 months. No doubt there will loads of applications, but what are the applicants supposed to do? the home office should atleast clarify its position. this will atleast deter unscruplous elements who are certainly taking advantage of this situation. Alternatively, the Home office can also charge a nominal fee to speed up the process by employing people. given the current economic conditions am sure ther will be many takers.

Possibly due to the seemingly spiralling number of Asians-incongruously-married-to-Eastern-Europeans clogging up the system?

I'm wearing my cynical hat today.....

sierrammike wrote:till Aug there was a 7 month Backlog. but, it has just reached the 10 month limit. and since holiday season is approaching it might cross over to 11 and 12 month also. The home office should atleast inform the applicants abt the backlog. Their website says that applications should be decided in 6 months. No doubt there will loads of applications, but what are the applicants supposed to do? the home office should atleast clarify its position.

My feeling is that the Home Office is completely incapable to admit a mistake. Like a naughty child, they would rather go through the most ridiculous excuses than just face up to it. Whether that is a good mindset for guaranteeing the safety of a country remains an open question...

Anyway, you are certainly right. Even given the backlog, the handling of the situation is appalling. Which makes it all the easier to claim damages, if you have any. They should pay and they will have to pay, but only if the applicants press the issue.

Alternatively, the Home office can also charge a nominal fee to speed up the process by employing people. given the current economic conditions am sure ther will be many takers.

That is a scary thought, because indeed they could. However, that would require more staff to process the payments, and this staff is just not available.

Damages - what damages could they claim for? The EEA PR does not confer any additional rights. Get real!

EEA is well down the list for UKBA priorities and the waiting time will get longer and longer. The MP's have stopped chasing it up as they know it is not a worthwhile effort. So unless we start trying to chuck out non EEA family members it is not going to get any better.

I think you might find it is not just the UK that is less than worried about the 6 months guidance being exceeded for EEA apps.

As for being naughty - what would you rather have - EEA app problems or a couple of hundred thousand more illegals in the country every month?
And the waiting time for EEA process is published so it is not a case of hiding the situation.

Frontier Mole wrote:Damages - what damages could they claim for? The EEA PR does not confer any additional rights. Get real!

Like not being able to apply for a Schengen visa? I think that is a serious restriction of the personal freedom, and if you loose out on a paid holiday, it is well worth asking for damages.

I think you might find it is not just the UK that is less than worried about the 6 months guidance being exceeded for EEA apps.

I also happen to know a few member states that have a system in place that works really well. And as it happens, they also cope better with illegal immigrants, because they coordinate local and central efforts.

As for being naughty - what would you rather have - EEA app problems or a couple of hundred thousand more illegals in the country every month?

The UKBA is representing the state, and as such at has to respect the law. Otherwise the "contrat social" is broken, and the state lose all moral right to coerce citizens. Illegal immigration may be an import issue (although I doubt your numbers), but it is secondary to the law.

And the waiting time for EEA process is published so it is not a case of hiding the situation.

That is true, but there are also a number of places where the 6 months period is still assumed. This is in the instructions for employers to check for the right to work, in the Certificate of Application, and it was the advice given to people when they applied.

thsths wrote:

Frontier Mole wrote:Damages - what damages could they claim for? The EEA PR does not confer any additional rights. Get real!

Like not being able to apply for a Schengen visa? I think that is a serious restriction of the personal freedom, and if you loose out on a paid holiday, it is well worth asking for damages.

You are talking rubbish. They can apply for a visa to whatever country they want. UKBA is not restricting their movement or right to do so. As for losing out on a paid for holiday, I think you better read some law before you suggest the best route is to sue. Try and start with cause and effect and a little bit of contract law.

The Idea of paying damages would raise a whole new set of problems. The 6 month time limit mentioned by the home office in their acknowledgement letters and in chapter 6 (3.2) of European Casework instructions gives applicants the hope that within 6 months the applications will be decided. since its beginning to touch almost like 12 months , in my opinion its a very long time not to have a decision.

in the acknowledgement letters given by the home office, a certain clause there says that the decsion will be given in 6 months. which employer/university is going to risk having a person after these 6 months have expired? i do not think that the home office give another letter(correct me if i am wrong) to say that the application is still not decided.

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sierrammike wrote:The Idea of paying damages would raise a whole new set of problems.

I am sure it does. One question would be whether contract law is applicable, which I am not convinced of. There is no contract between the UKBA and the applicant, but there is the law by which both are governed. To make a comparison, it is more as if I speed, lose control of my car, and ruin the front yard of a third person. Surely the judge would grant that person damages?

in the acknowledgement letters given by the home office, a certain clause there says that the decsion will be given in 6 months. which employer/university is going to risk having a person after these 6 months have expired? i do not think that the home office give another letter(correct me if i am wrong) to say that the application is still not decided.

First of all the statement in the letter is pretty much irrelevant for you. It is like a letter in which I promise not to mug you - nice language, but no substance. However, I do believe that they will send you another letter if you complain - we certainly got one. So if you are in that situation, it is worth contacting the UKBA.

just for amusement: in chapter 5 of the European Casework Instructions (on the UKBA website) it says explicitly:

5.9 Six-month rule
Community law requires us to decide applications for a Residence Card within 6 months from the date of receipt of the application. Every effort should be made to do so, particularly where an applicant draws our attention to an alleged breach of this requirement. Failure to comply with this requirement could leave the Home Office open to a claim for damages.

The magic word is could but the devil will be throwing snowballs in hell before that happens on a worrying basis.

About 2 years ago there was a massive panic about this when the six months was be close to being exceeded. But once they realised that to get damages there had to be a real element of loss and some other EEA countries were equally inundated they stopped worrying. They worried so little they closed the Croydon EEA unit and moved the work to Liverpool. Note the work moved but not the people..... could be a clue in that.

There are a few EEA countries that hand out EEA family permits and residency like smarties, their police and intelligence agencies are crapping themselves. They do not have a clue about who is in the country and what their background is. Post grant checks are not done so they are really out on a limb. Those are the countries where the rule is to grant and not question the possibilities of fraud and fabrication. It is "the turn a blind eye" and hope that it does not bite you.

sure, before somebody gets real money from the Home Office...
but I found it really amusing that at least they are making the suggestion themselves.

They do not have a clue about who is in the country and what their background is. Post grant checks are not done so they are really out on a limb.

Is this not true for the UK as well?

Now serious again: it is appalling that the Home Office breaks the law systematically on a massive scale, and still expect all citizens to abide by the law in every minor detail!

Frontier Mole wrote:The magic word is could but the devil will be throwing snowballs in hell before that happens on a worrying basis.

About 2 years ago there was a massive panic about this when the six months was be close to being exceeded. But once they realised that to get damages there had to be a real element of loss and some other EEA countries were equally inundated they stopped worrying.

I never questioned that there has to be an element of loss, and on the whole I agree that the total cost is probably marginal. Even with many applications, few will have provable damages, and even fewer will go to court over it. But that does not mean it is impossible if you find yourself in that situation.

There are a few EEA countries that hand out EEA family permits and residency like smarties, their police and intelligence agencies are crapping themselves.

I have to say that I was quite pleased with the Dutch system: you apply locally, get your passport back with a temporary visa, and then a residence card is issue after a centralised check. Everybody is happen, and the amount of effort is much lower than all the back and for with the stupid EEA2 process. Also there is personal contact with the applicant, which I think is quite an important aspect to prevent fraud.

Other countries do without the centralised check, but they have at least a database of cases. A post application check would be possible and reasonable, but I guess nobody wants to pay for it. Of course there is also the ECJ verdict from last week, which significantly limits the usefulness of such a database. BTW, the UK should also be affect by that, I guess? Does the police have access to the database of European applications?

But now comes the real questions: what happens in the UK after some office worker with no experience and few skills (according to what I can see) has decided the application? The rate of wrongful refusals is already pretty scary, and the rate of incorrectly accepted applications could be even higher. And while the application sits in the queue, people are completely free to roam, whatever the validity of their claim.

For these reasons I think that the central system cannot be the answer.

The Dutch system sounds not bad.
I think the difference in the UK is that there has been EC checks to some degree even if it was only at the point of entry. So you could argue that that is better than a lot of other EEA countries - then that goes against delaying the residence card.....

The staff are reasonably well trained, the Liverpool teams are vastly experienced and there are few newbie’s in the roles as jobs there are not easy to come by. Government service is a good career in the north and is viewed as an excellent option and attracts good quality staff.

The decisions made by the team are in the vast majority grants, those that are refused have goods reasons for doing so. Not many decisions get turned over in court compared to the ECO rate of overturn. So all in all I think they perform a good public service.

Another 50 caseworkers or so doing the job would go a long way to bringing the turn around time below 6 months. 50 more bodies is a vast number of staff in terms of cost and accommodation so it is very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

You can't have it both ways and say that the number of incorrect grants and incorrect refusals are scary. The number of refusals is a small percentage of the total number of applications. The only way an incorrect grant can be made is through the deception employed by the applicant. So what you are saying is the system is riddled with fraudsters.... interesting concept.

Frontier Mole wrote:I think the difference in the UK is that there has been EC checks to some degree even if it was only at the point of entry.

Agreed, that does change the situation. But why is it so difficult then to get a Residence Card following an EEA Family Permit, or just to have the Residence Card in a new passport? I understand that the UKBA wants to offer only the minimum service required by law, but this is actually causing a lot more effort, not less.

The staff are reasonably well trained, the Liverpool teams are vastly experienced and there are few newbie’s in the roles as jobs there are not easy to come by.

Well, obviously we had just two experiences (and only one in Liverpool), but they both showed pretty basic mistakes. I know that I cannot generalise this, so these may be the exceptions.

So what you are saying is the system is riddled with fraudsters.... interesting concept.

No, I am not saying there is, I am just saying there could be a significantly number of residence cards that should not have been issued. But that depends both on the number of mistakes and on the number of unjustified applications.