New citizenship form UKF

I just received this email from the national archives...

Estimate number: E686495

Thank you for contacting The National Archives with your request for an estimate for the cost of copies of records.

Unfortunately the information that you have provided is insufficient to enable us to process this estimate. We cannot provide an estimate if it would be necessary to search through a document to find specific pieces of information which may be located randomly throughout a document.

In some cases, items which are listed in Discovery, our catalogue, are not physically separate documents. Instead they form part of a larger document and have to be located within that document in order to provide an estimate. We will make every effort to locate such items but, occasionally, this is not possible.

I've applied as well using UKM in April (received by HO on 16/4/15 from the US (Los Angeles). I just got a reply from the Home Office that the biometrics requirement is not needed on my application as it was received prior to the rollout date. The replies from the FurtherNationality email say I need to wait till it's setup in the US whereas people in the Home Office are saying they aren't requiring it, hmmm

She also said that my application was being assigned finally to a case worker. My 6 month date is Oct 15th so hopefully I have a decision by then.

Also like the other person posted I got a certified copy of my mom's naturalization certificate from the National Archives. It was printed on legal A4 size paper and has an embossed stamp from the National Archives. That's the only copy I would be able to get as my mom doesn't have her original from the 1960s.

mikeg333 wrote:I've applied as well using UKM in April (received by HO on 16/4/15 from the US (Los Angeles). I just got a reply from the Home Office that the biometrics requirement is not needed on my application as it was received prior to the rollout date. The replies from the FurtherNationality email say I need to wait till it's setup in the US whereas people in the Home Office are saying they aren't requiring it, hmmm

She also said that my application was being assigned finally to a case worker. My 6 month date is Oct 15th so hopefully I have a decision by then.

That would be amazing if true! I'm at 5 months on Tuesday and they took my fee out a little over 5 weeks ago. I tried requesting my passport back about 6 weeks ago and they still haven't returned it. I've passed up as much work as I could but now I need a business visa for a job in January and need my passport back

To New citizenship from UKF

The naturalization certificate you got, did the HM Passport office accept it as a proof of citizenship.
I have just a received a reply from them regarding my father's certificate, stating that the document has been taken
by someone for legal use, and I have to get back to them after one month.

I wonder why the people in the HM passport office do not consider the British passport as an alternative proof of citizenship as long as the original naturalization certificate is lost and that there is no way we issue a replacement one.

I wonder why they do not retain a record of citizenship status for all the Britishers, so that they can cross-reference there details against whatever naturalization certificate. This is regardless if the document is laminate or unlaminated.

bfrenchfry wrote: That would be amazing if true! I'm at 5 months on Tuesday and they took my fee out a little over 5 weeks ago. I tried requesting my passport back about 6 weeks ago and they still haven't returned it. I've passed up as much work as I could but now I need a business visa for a job in January and need my passport back

For the passport I emailed that FurtherNationaility email 3 times in one week saying I needed my passport back. I was then directed to a Home Office employee who directly emailed me and setup to have my passport returned as I needed it for travel. From the time she emailed me to when I received my passport back was about 10 days.

The woman I talked to seemed like she knew what she was talking about in regards to the biometrics.

Here response was "As your application was received prior to the Biometrics introduction, you are not required to provide this information.

Your application will be allocated to a caseworker shortly."

My dates are:

Eligibility criteria: UKM
Current nationality: American
Method of application: Post
Date of application: April 10 2015
Payment method: Credit card
Date of receipt by UKBA: April 14 2015
Date of debit or clearance of fees: April 22 2015

yktamimi wrote:To New citizenship from UKF

The naturalization certificate you got, did the HM Passport office accept it as a proof of citizenship.
I have just a received a reply from them regarding my father's certificate, stating that the document has been taken
by someone for legal use, and I have to get back to them after one month.

I wonder why the people in the HM passport office do not consider the British passport as an alternative proof of citizenship as long as the original naturalization certificate is lost and that there is no way we issue a replacement one.

I wonder why they do not retain a record of citizenship status for all the Britishers, so that they can cross-reference there details against whatever naturalization certificate. This is regardless if the document is laminate or unlaminated.

I first did a request to find the certificate with the National Archives and got back the document number. I then did a certified copy request using that document number and received the certified copy by post. Took 2-3 weeks I believe to receive it at my US address. So, I didn't have an issue that the document wasn't available for copying. I was told a certified copy was sufficient and that when they process your application they compare the certified copy to the physical copy.

To New citizenship from UKF

My name is: Omar Khaled Omar Tamimi
I just contacted the HM Home Office eirlier this day, I asked them about the possibility of sending a certified copy of naturalization certificate from the National Archives. They just told me that they do not accept it just because it is un-official document.

I really do not know what to do, could you please tell me what is your full name including your father's name.
It seems that every-person in HM passport office has his own way, when dealing with our applicatoins.

Best Wishes,
Omar Tamimi

I just thought I would post about my application so far.

I sent my former on 19/09/15 from Melbourne, Australia.
Today 02/10/15 I have had what I think is the fee deducted from my account $173aud which is around £80.

How long does the next step usually take?

Ben170292 wrote:I just thought I would post about my application so far.

I sent my former on 19/09/15 from Melbourne, Australia.
Today 02/10/15 I have had what I think is the fee deducted from my account $173aud which is around £80.

How long does the next step usually take?

Congrats to you! So far people have been waiting nearly 6 months (the time since the form was created in April), but it seems things are starting to move along and more people are having their money deducted faster than us early applicants, so maybe they've finally learned how to process these. I've yet to hear of one person being accepted off a UKF form yet. For other citizenship applications it seems the process is about a month from application until biometric enrollment request, and from there about 3-4 months, but again, so far with UKF everyone is going way over those times... Good luck!

Wanted to see if anyone had heard good, bad, or indifferent on their biometrics, especially those in the States.
Its now October and on the First I sent another email to the Nationality email I've got(can't put fingers on it at the moment) and have yet to receive anything back(not unusual though, first email took a month to get a response) Just trying to keep a check on everyone

Hubby is getting antsy, while he knows the process can take awhile, he was hoping it would go faster. I'm trying to talk him off the cliff at the moment He is wanting to call the immigration line, but I've told him no one will give him any info until its 6 months out, and he is actually one of the lucky ones to have had his fees deducted so quickly while the lot of you have waited months!

Regarding the arrangement of biometric facilities in the USA, bfrenchfry had this to say some time ago:

bfrenchfry wrote:I wrote the biometrics people again saying I don't understand why you say there isn't a center yet, there are so many places to do biometrics for visas, so why not citizens, and I got a longer answer, still saying the same thing. For citizen applications from the U.S. They are hoping for October. Full email from them below:

Thank You for contacting us.
From 6th April 2015, applicants for British Citizenship must enrol their biometric identifiers (fingerprints and photographs) as part of the application process.

To ensure a positive experience for our customers UK Visas and Immigration have arranged for biometric identifiers to be taken at the 135 Application Support Centres across the US .

Unfortunately, it has taken longer than we expected to put in place the necessary technical infrastructure and this has meant that we have been unable to schedule biometric enrolments.

We now expect this to be resolved by October 2015, when we will be able to invite you to arrange your enrolment visits. We will contact you again in October to explain what you need to do next. We sincerely apologise for the delay to your application and any inconvenience caused.

Since it is now October, how can we find out if these biometric facilities have in fact been set up? I've written to the two email addresses (NationalityBiometrics@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk and
NationalityBiometricsOverseas@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk) that bfrenchfry also contacted, one of which (the first one?) yielded the two responses that bfrenchfry received. I shall post an update if I hear anything.

I sent a Royal Mail International Tracked and Signed envelope along with my application for the safe return of my documents, and I can see from the online tracking service that it hasn't yet been posted, which could imply that the biometric facilities have not yet been set up (illustrating yet again the invariable incompetence with which we have grown sadly accustomed).

Concerning whether anyone has in fact received nationality through the UKF route, I can't remember if I pointed this out on this forum (I think I did, some time ago), but I am aware of one person, who is not on this forum, who did receive nationality in this way. She applied from Britain, though. Her application was processed with amazing speed: her ceremony fee was taken three WEEKS after she applied, and she had her citizenship after three months. This includes the time it took for her to request correction of (the inevitable) spelling errors in her name in the documents that she was originally sent for the ceremony. It is quite incredible how fast these applications could be processed if only we weren't living abroad.

If anyone hears news about the biometric centres in the USA, please do inform the rest of us. Thanks.

"It is quite incredible how fast these applications could be processed if only we weren't living abroad."

Believe me it isn't!

I applied in April for my daughter, born in Britain and lived here all her life. I'm Britsh, her mother is French. Absolute textbook case, should have taken 5 minutes or less to sort out. Yet two weeks shy of the deadline we are still waiting! Absolutely no communication. No way of communicating. I've sent emails with no reply. Not even the automated "don't bother us for 20 days" anymore. It's a disgrace.

So it's no better living in the UK.

It all started ok. She did her biometrics at the end of May, so I thought 3, maybe 4 months to complete. But since then nothing. No return of documents, no certificate obviously. I am at my wits end.

It's ridiculous, she has a French passport!! We have to go to London to the consulate to get it renewed. How stupid is that. She lives here and loves this country. It's insane. It should never have even been an issue in the first place. And we're all still together as a family, always have been, even after 15 years, we just decided not to marry and so we're being punished, all of us, especially my daughter.

I am so worried, frustrated and angry at the way this is (not) being handled. I feel we are being treated with contempt. This citizenship is my daughter's birth-right. These people in Liverpool just need to tick a box and print off a certificate. Yet 6 months on we are still waiting.

So it's no easier over here. Even for a simple case that should have been a formality.

Cheers

Dear All
I received this email from the HM Passport Office a couple of days ago. The examiner did not accept the laminated document of my father's naturalization certificate, she simply requested unlaminated document. she is now considering to turn down my passport application. I seriously do not know what to do.
we expected that she will ask for a nationality status letter (issued from the Home Office) as an alternative to the naturalization certificate.
could someone tell me what to do.........
BEST WISHES
Tamimi
------------------------------------------------------------- HM PASSPORT OFFICE LETTER-------------------------------------

Thank you for your recent email regarding your parents’ marriage certificate and translation. We have received these documents however due to our withdrawal policy unless I receive an unlaminated naturalisation certificate of your father to confirm your full nationality and a reply from your countersignatory which was sent on 16/9/2015 your application will be withdrawn and your documents returned
Thank you

Christine Lee
EO EQA

Well, all of us are, in theory, simple cases because we all have British fathers (and I too have a passport from one of the original EU countries, and furthermore I am a [demmed proficient] native speaker of English - as well as my other native language, of course - and lived in Britain for ten years accumulating three degrees from one of its best old universities). Confound it, we actually come from there. All of us have this birthright which we've been denied all our lives, and after fighting so long to have the law changed (I was one of the people directly involved, and it meant years of efforts and stress) we still have to wait because those who have the power to give us relief don't care enough about us (they don't have to suffer as we have suffered, so for them this kind of pain doesn't exist). We're not a priority for anyone.

Those who live abroad, though - and especially those who live in the USA - contend with additional obstacles, one of these being the geological slowness with which the 'biometric centres' are being set up. I've been waiting for five months and still no sign of a biometrics letter. Then even AFTER I do the biometrics, if they even grant me that boon (which seems increasingly unlikely even though I have no criminal record, parking ticket or anything of the kind), I'll have to wait heaven knows how long for the actual ceremony and whatnot - not to mention the horrors of applying for a passport. I'm stuck in a foreign country, unable to make any travel plans because my passport is in the hands of these... beings. My birthday is tomorrow: to think that I stupidly hoped that I'd celebrate it by gaining my birthright! I've seen two birthdays pass by since that law was approved, and still no progress. Two years thrown away. They did, of course, immediately commence the laws about citizenship deprivation and forcing landlords to snoop on tenants' immigration status: you can see where their priorities lie.

I suspect, as do many on this forum, that there is an element of randomness in the speed with which these applications are processed. As I said, the only person I know to have obtained citizenship through the UKF route got it in three months (and was not even EU - a category which is allowed to live, study and work in Britain anyway and therefore wouldn't even be suddenly adding another person allowed to live there). It may depend which particular individual is dealing with which application - who knows. It's not as if they make it easy for us to investigate.

If anyone hears anything, please let us know, and I'll do the same.

This is not about UKF though. It should perhaps go into a different thread.

yktamimi wrote:Dear All
I received this email from the HM Passport Office a couple of days ago. The examiner did not accept the laminated document of my father's naturalization certificate, she simply requested unlaminated document. she is now considering to turn down my passport application. I seriously do not know what to do.
we expected that she will ask for a nationality status letter (issued from the Home Office) as an alternative to the naturalization certificate.
could someone tell me what to do.........
BEST WISHES
Tamimi
------------------------------------------------------------- HM PASSPORT OFFICE LETTER-------------------------------------

Thank you for your recent email regarding your parents’ marriage certificate and translation. We have received these documents however due to our withdrawal policy unless I receive an unlaminated naturalisation certificate of your father to confirm your full nationality and a reply from your countersignatory which was sent on 16/9/2015 your application will be withdrawn and your documents returned
Thank you

Christine Lee
EO EQA

could you please let me know how to post this inquery to a different thread.....

I can't find another thread about a similar topic, so in your place I would do this:

1) Try to obtain a naturalisation certificate that is not laminated: other threads also confirm that these people simply don't like laminated certificates and there's no way around that. So order one now. I see that you couldn't get an estimate of the cost, but sadly the choice is: either order it without knowing the cost or have your application rejected for now.

2) Contact your countersignatory immediately, telling them that they must reply to whatever communication the passport people have sent them because their silence is holding up your application.

3) Contact the passport people asking for more time, explaining that you have initiated the procedure to obtain a naturalisation certificate that is not laminated, and (if applicable) that the post is very slow so you might need some time before the documents will be physically available to you and then more time for them to reach the passport office.

Then, if you still have more questions about this,

4) Start a new thread in the 'British citizenship' section (I don't see a 'passport' section but I see that other passport-related conversations, e.g. passport application timelines, are in the citizenship section) with an appropriate title such as 'Documentation for British passport application' or 'Passport office refuses documents that are laminated' or whatever you find best.

This particular thread is about having to register for citizenship *before* even being able to apply for a passport. This is a separate procedure and you do not have to do it, so your discussion is about applying for a passport rather than claiming citizenship itself, which is what we are talking about here.

The last thing I need now is some sanctimonious lecture. I was simply replying to the notion that it's easier for those based in the UK, which it is not!

That's all.

Good luck to you and all of us.

Thanks very much for the useful information. I really appreciate it

1) The home office is unable to issue a duplicate certificate simply because they do not retain any records for naturalization certificates issued before 1986. And my father was naturalized in 1975

2) The national archive can only issue an index record; the actual certificate is not available because my father was a foreign national. You may check this statement which is quoted from their website
(The Home Office did not keep a set of duplicate certificates issued in the UK for foreign nationals during these years so the index is the only source of detail)

3) An expired passport of my father has been sent to the HM passport office, they should have considered it as a proof of citizenship. Actually the names of all my direct (eldest) brothers and sisters are stated on the passport except me. All of them are British by descent, and they have British passports.

4) Recently I just found my brothers and sisters birth certificates (issued from the British consulate in Jerusalem) all of these certificates are unlamented and original. My father's full name is listed on each certificate. (Would it be possible for the passport office to accept them as a proof of British Citizenship?)

I just would like to know about the best possible course of action;
your effort to assist me will be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Best Regards,
Tamimi

The last thing I need is a personal attack. I am not 'sanctimonious' nor am I 'lecturing'. Please keep your unnecessary nastiness to yourself. Such language is purely emotional (and hostile towards fellow members of the forum who are going through an equally stressful process) and adds precisely nothing to the value and usefulness of the discussion.

My case is no less 'textbook' than yours, by the way. And that probably applies to many of us. We all have British fathers and many of us have no criminal records, which means that all of these applications could have been processed quickly, and there is nothing wrong with saying that. And the 'we're all in the same boat' sentiment is a friendly sentiment (which reflects the truth) and should not be met with personal insults.

Many of the people applying from Britain and contributing to this thread have shown timelines that are much, much swifter than those of people applying from abroad. For instance, you appear to have got the biometrics done a month or so after applying, whereas I've been waiting five months without any sign of a biometrics letter and some people applying from abroad have waited even longer - and then AFTER the biometrics we'll have even more waiting. To some extent this delay is due to the fact that they are still setting up the biometric facilities abroad whereas they already have them in Britain. This is an undeniable fact, and it causes applications from abroad to be slower. There's nothing 'sanctimonious' about that, nor is it false. I am describing the data available to me.

This does not mean that 100% of applications within Britain will be fast. It merely seems to be a trend, and in fact the application and guidance materials imply in many places that applicants are in Britain ('go to your local post office' and stuff like that): they're not set up very well for foreign applications. Your case adds one more item to the data that we have (tentative data because the UKF process is new), and shows that there are cases where British applications are delayed as well. Additional data such as yours allow us to gain a more complete understanding of what is happening, which we are still in the process of discovering.

You don't have to jump on me and be unpleasant. That only reflects badly on you.

Hi Antsmall

You sounds a very knowledgeable person....I liked your replies.....could I have your reply to my last thread please.....
Best Wishes
Tamimi

1) The home office is unable to issue a duplicate certificate there is no records for certificates that are issued before 1986. my father was actaully naturalized in 1975

2) I contacted the people in the national archives, they simply told me that they can issue an index record; the actual certificate is not available because my father was a foreign national. You may check this statement which is quoted from their website
(The Home Office did not keep a set of duplicate certificates issued in the UK for foreign nationals during these years so the index is the only source of detail)

3) An expired passport of my father has been sent over to the HM passport office, they should have considered it as a proof of citizenship. The passport contains a list of my direct (eldest) brothers and sisters names (except my name). All of them are British by descent, and they have British passports.

4) My father full name is listed on all of my brother's and sister's Birth certificates. These certificates are original and unlaminated. they were issued from the British consulate in Jerusalem. Do you think the Passport office will consider them as a proof of citizenship (to my father)

Could you please give me an idea of what is the best possible course of action.

I look forward to hearing from you,
Best Regards,
Tamimi

Antsmall wrote: I've been waiting for five months and still no sign of a biometrics letter. Then even AFTER I do the biometrics, if they even grant me that boon (which seems increasingly unlikely even though I have no criminal record, parking ticket or anything of the kind), I'll have to wait heaven knows how long for the actual ceremony and whatnot - not to mention the horrors of applying for a passport. I'm stuck in a foreign country, unable to make any travel plans because my passport is in the hands of these... beings. My birthday is tomorrow: to think that I stupidly hoped that I'd celebrate it by gaining my birthright! I've seen two birthdays pass by since that law was approved, and still no progress. Two years thrown away.

Same here. Had my application acknowledged and my fee withdrawn exactly 4 months ago, application received almost 5 months ago. No news, just silence. B-day was last week, but nothing. Hope I will get it for Christmas.

In fact I know very little about naturalisation and its ramifications because I've never had to deal with it, since nobody in my family has had to naturalise (all our ancestors are British). This notion of laminated documents being unacceptable is very new to me, as is this even sillier business of the 'authorities' not keeping any record of naturalisations which occurred before 1986. That is truly bizarre.

I know nothing about this more than anyone could glean from doing various internet searches and seeking other message boards which specialise in this particular topic. I suggest you start a new thread specifically dedicated to the issue of inability to obtain a naturalisation certificate (because the naturalisation occurred before 1986) and how to get around this. I would have thought (logically - not that these people necessarily behave according to logic) that a passport would have been proof of citizenship as long as it was issued before your birth.

Does your own birth certificate name your father as such?

Can you get this 'index record' from the national archives?

I've even looked into 'unlaminating' documents but so far this doesn't seem promising; what seems to be the case is that if the lamination was done properly, the plastic is fused into the fibres of the paper so removing the plastic would cause irreparable damage to the paper.

But seriously, I am not knowledgeable at all about this topic; what I know about is UKF because I was one of the people involved in that legal reform and I closely followed its development. I strongly advise you to start a new thread which may attract the attention of someone with actual knowledge in this department.

Is there any way you could consult a lawyer? I know that lawyers can be horribly expensive, but a one-hour consultation is vastly less expensive than having a lawyer deal with the entire application. (That is what I did for my American green card). Have a very clear set of issues and questions and present them to the lawyer during the consultation. There are probably lawyers who can do online consultations (through skype or whatever) even if there is no lawyer versed in British citizenship matters in your area (I understand that it may be difficult to find one). But sadly this is not my field of specialisation at all and I don't want to give you wrong information or have you wasting time pursuing a course of investigation which, unbeknownst to me, turns out to be useless.

At least if I were you I'd write to the passport people (who, alas, are notoriously refractory) explaining that you cannot obtain an unlaminated naturalisation certificate but your father's passport, issued before your birth, is proof of citizenship and your birth certificate names him as your father. It is ridiculous that the only reason why you can't claim citizenship from your own father is that the office which holds naturalisation records basically didn't do its job (I'm referring to their failure to hold copies of certificates issued before 1986 which is just vastly silly and seems like gross negligence to me).

yktamimi wrote:Thanks very much for the useful information. I really appreciate it

1) The home office is unable to issue a duplicate certificate simply because they do not retain any records for naturalization certificates issued before 1986. And my father was naturalized in 1975

2) The national archive can only issue an index record; the actual certificate is not available because my father was a foreign national. You may check this statement which is quoted from their website
(The Home Office did not keep a set of duplicate certificates issued in the UK for foreign nationals during these years so the index is the only source of detail)

3) An expired passport of my father has been sent to the HM passport office, they should have considered it as a proof of citizenship. Actually the names of all my direct (eldest) brothers and sisters are stated on the passport except me. All of them are British by descent, and they have British passports.

4) Recently I just found my brothers and sisters birth certificates (issued from the British consulate in Jerusalem) all of these certificates are unlamented and original. My father's full name is listed on each certificate. (Would it be possible for the passport office to accept them as a proof of British Citizenship?)

I just would like to know about the best possible course of action;
your effort to assist me will be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Best Regards,
Tamimi

This is only one example of an immigration lawyer who can communicate with clients over skype etc:
http://crossborderlegal.co.uk/content/ (And he also has a post dedicated to UKF, aka Section 65, which to my mind means that his heart is in the right place as he is sensitive to issues of human rights and equality). Someone like this, we hope, should be able to tell you exactly the kind of person whose advice you must seek in order to get around this problem, because in a sense it is not an immigration problem per se but a problem of obtaining a document - then again, a lawyer might be able to write you a letter stating that a passport plus an 'index record' plus the laminated certificate plus your father's name on your birth certificate (plus, if applicable, any documentation relating to your siblings' citizenship through your father) constitute enough proof of citizenship, or something. It is a bit of an interdisciplinary issue since it spans both 'getting the passport people to accept your documents even though they're not standard' and 'obtaining proof of naturalisation which occurred before 1986'.

Do internet searches about 'UK naturalisation before 1986' and stuff like that and see if there is another forum where people are having the same problem and have discovered workarounds. You must surely not be the only person with this particular problem: I imagine that a significant number of people naturalised before 1986 and then laminated their naturalisation certificates, unwittingly creating difficulties for their children (and I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-lamination stance were something introduced recently).

By the way, the record you're looking for might be this:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C12181210

anahamilton wrote: Same here. Had my application acknowledged and my fee withdrawn exactly 4 months ago, application received almost 5 months ago. No news, just silence. B-day was last week, but nothing. Hope I will get it for Christmas.

Let's hope for a nice xmas present for all of us from these people (you know... the thing that we would have had automatically at birth if the law hadn't been idiotic). We've waited long enough!