Relative denied visitor visa to UK (from Pak) - Appeal Help.

We applied for a visitor visa for my sister in law & her 2 children (both under 10) to visit us in the UK (from Pakistan).

Our application for entry clearance to the UK as a family visitors for 6-7 weeks was refused as it was stated by the Entry Clearance Officer that it did not meet the requirements of the following criteria:-

Paragraph 41of the HC 395: The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a visitor are that she:

(i) is genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by him, not exceeding 6 months; and
(ii) intends to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by him; and
(iii) does not intend to take employment in the United Kingdom; and
(iv) does not intend to produce goods or provide services within the United Kingdom, including the selling of goods or services direct to members of the public; and
(v) does not intend to study at a maintained school; and
(vi) will maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately out of resources available to him without recourse to public funds or taking employment; or will, with any dependants, be maintained and accommodated adequately by relatives or friends; and
(vii) can meet the cost of the return or onward journey

Now we submitted an appeal to the AIT - and have a hearing in a couple of weeks.

I cannot afford legal representation, so will be attending the oral hearing myself.

A couple of things they rejected our application on were on inability to demonstrate social & economic ties to Pakistan.

They also commented on 2-3 inconsistent deposits into her joint bank account.

Finally, they said that the applicant had agreed to fund the whole trip - which was factually incorrect as we as the sponsors had stated clearly in the application that we would fund the whole trip (and make a point of stating this in our sponsor's letter).

I can explain the socail/economic ties - no problem.

I can prove that we (the sponsors) went on record to say we were fully funding the trip.

My problem is the bank account - basically, culturally, in Pakistan the most senior or most trusted members of families are trusted with money for various family members. Also, the applicant's family had just sold some agricultural/ancestral land and their share of the proceeds were deposited into the account.

No attempt to defraud the Home Office or artificially inflate the bank balnce - just coincidental - the deposits would have been made whether or not we were applying.

How can I explain the bank account? I accept it doesnt look great - but they only want to visit for the school summer holidays, and return back to their lives back home with absolutely NO intention to stay and work in the UK.

Also - how should I address the members of the appeal hearing? What 'legal' terms are essential etc.

Many many thanks

Hi

On what grounds have you been given to appeal? I'm currently waiting to hear regards an appeal for a visitors visa, I had to appeal under the Human Rights Act.

Also, when did you submit your appeal? Just to give me an idea of when mine might be heard.

Send evidence that the kids are in school, and any letters from family members indicating that she will return, and try to get these to the court in advance of the hearing.

Call the Judge 'Sir'.

These issues often go on whether the witness and sponsors seem honest to the Judge.

Victoria

frances2 wrote:Hi

On what grounds have you been given to appeal? I'm currently waiting to hear regards an appeal for a visitors visa, I had to appeal under the Human Rights Act.

Also, when did you submit your appeal? Just to give me an idea of when mine might be heard.

Well initially after we heard that the application to visit had been rejected, we decided F' IT! - I mean, if they cant trust a 40 year old women to travel to the UK for 6 weeks during the summer holidays with her 2 kids, why the hell should we appeal. She decided that if the UK didnt want her, then she didnt want to come here!

But I was angry that they doubted our character - so I sent them a 4 page letter with my Appeal application form.

Appeal was submitted in May 2006, and it took 9 months to get a reply from them.

VictoriaS wrote:Send evidence that the kids are in school, and any letters from family members indicating that she will return, and try to get these to the court in advance of the hearing.

Call the Judge 'Sir'.

These issues often go on whether the witness and sponsors seem honest to the Judge.

Victoria

Great advice We've got school letters, and will get them and all documents to the court before the hearing. In fact they were all sent with the origianl application - but I am convinced no one bothered to open the damn file!

So I call the judge 'Sir'

Refer to myself as the 'sponsor'

What about the person whose application was rejected? The 'Applicant'???

My only concern is how to explain the bank statements. I accept the transaction history is inconsistent, but when we in the UK go abroad for a holiday, no one checks my bank statements! I mean my bank transaction history is a total disaster!

Address the bank statement issue the same way you have done here and provide any proof you can. Can you get recent statements showing the money still sitting in her account?

gollywood wrote:

frances2 wrote:Hi

On what grounds have you been given to appeal? I'm currently waiting to hear regards an appeal for a visitors visa, I had to appeal under the Human Rights Act.

Also, when did you submit your appeal? Just to give me an idea of when mine might be heard.

Well initially after we heard that the application to visit had been rejected, we decided F' IT! - I mean, if they cant trust a 40 year old women to travel to the UK for 6 weeks during the summer holidays with her 2 kids, why the hell should we appeal. She decided that if the UK didnt want her, then she didnt want to come here!

But I was angry that they doubted our character - so I sent them a 4 page letter with my Appeal application form.

Appeal was submitted in May 2006, and it took 9 months to get a reply from them.

Good for you. I think the that people should complain/not accept this automatic assumption by ECO's that people want to decieve.
I too applealed in a similar angry fashion and actually felt a little better for having written it!

But May 2006!!!! And you've still not had your hearing!!!! I'm astonished.

frances2 wrote: But May 2006!!!! And you've still not had your hearing!!!! I'm astonished.

I should have said May2006

OFCHARITY wrote:Address the bank statement issue the same way you have done here and provide any proof you can. Can you get recent statements showing the money still sitting in her account?

Thanks for your advice

I'll have to request a latest statement that may strengthen our appeal.

A couple of questions -

1) I can list 30 immediate family members that live within 5 mins of the applicant - all brothers/sisters/1st cousins/uncles/aunts/grandparents...and her husband is staying behind for work reasons etc - how can the Home Office say 'you have not demonstrted a social ties to your country' - she have EVERY reason to return!!!

2) As for 'Not demonstrating any Economic ties' - she is a housewife who has a small share in a family business / some commercial land that gains a small rental income / a plot of land upon which they are looking o build a 'final' home for themselves and her husband has been in the same local Govt job for over 20 years!!!

3) The bank statement issue - really perplexing me as I dont know how to discuss this! Help required on this. (if someone could give me the 'bones' - and I'll add the meat)

I appreciate we live in 'high alert' times but shouldnt the authorities focus their attention on keeping out thousands of convicted criminals out of the UK, rather than denying visiting visas for middle aged women for the school holidays?

These guys must seriously not bother to read the files that are sent to them!!!

^^^^

Anyone? Appeal is next week.

Much obliged.

hi, sent you a pm.

i had the same problem with my sister in law's visit application and we won the appeal. when/where is the appeal? don't worry about the bank statement probem....we explained to the judge that in Pakistan in is not practical for everyone, especially women, to have their own bank accounts or use them daily like we do in the UK. More or less everything is done in cash there. We explained to the judge the straight truth, that we put the money in the account as a sudden lump sum bec we needed proof of the money to show the ECO. There is nothing wrong with this. As you dont have much time left, contact me via pm if you need quicker advice. don't worry, the judge we had was very very fair, once he heard what we had to say, he blew the Home Office reps case straight out of the water and the Judge stated there and then that the visa should be issued without any further delay. I think the ECO's in Islamabad reject most applications in the hope that so many will only appeal and the rest will accept rejection, but like you say, why should you have a tainted record if you are a genuine applicant. Hope to hear from you soon.

Many thanks T_K.

That gives me some assurance (actually, quite a lot!!!)

I'll be 100% honest and up front.

I'll also tell them that its my sister in law and her husbands account, and just like any UK citizen, we wouldnt expect any other outside family members to pry too deep in OUR financial matters.

Its almost like you have to get stripped naked in front of everyone - making all your private details public for all to see.

(TK _ I did respond to your PM) - Appeal is in 6 days.

Just trying to put together a file for them!!!

gollywood wrote:I'll also tell them that its my sister in law and her husbands account, and just like any UK citizen, we wouldnt expect any other outside family members to pry too deep in OUR financial matters.

Will you be arguing that the financial matters of your relatives are none of the home office business?

paulp wrote:

gollywood wrote:I'll also tell them that its my sister in law and her husbands account, and just like any UK citizen, we wouldnt expect any other outside family members to pry too deep in OUR financial matters.

Will you be arguing that the financial matters of your relatives are none of the home office business?

No - of course not. I appreciate the info they require

Just saying that here are the facts - this is what I can tell you about my relatives financial circumstances, but if they want us to break it down to the 'nth' degree - then quite honestly, we simply dont have that detail where we can account for EVERY single transaction made over a 6 month period.

How many of us know the fine detail about our 'in laws & their relatives'?

I mean - when I go for a visit abroad, no one checks my bank statements - and believe me, they are a total mess; neither do they ask for a school letter confirming that my kids will come back etc etc etc

gollywood wrote: No - of course not. I appreciate the info they require

Just saying that here are the facts - this is what I can tell you about my relatives financial circumstances, but if they want us to break it down to the 'nth' degree - then quite honestly, we simply dont have that detail where we can account for EVERY single transaction made over a 6 month period.

That's fair enough. As long as you can explain the problematic big deposit.

^^^ I will try to!

Sent the files off to the A.I.T today (The actual Applicantst file/Our Sponsors file that we submitted 1st time round, and a 3rd file with a list of Appendices that I will be referring to for the hearing.

Quite nervous about this as hearing is next week.

How long do hearings last (Visitor Visa hearings)?

Whats the format? They ask - you speak and so on, or they say their bit and then they give me time to go through our 'case'?

Crappin it actually!

Best of luck. Sounds like you've done the best preperation you can. I think you're doing the right thing, sometimes things come down to a matter of principal.....

As for the format of the hearing, I've no idea, I'm sure someone may come with the info for you.

Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks Frances - appreciate those words. You are right. A lot of this is being driven by principal as they doubted our sincerity & questioned our integrity (disguising it in 'legal-speak')

The ECO in his/her Rejection Letters stated ''You have declared that you will be meeting the cost of travel and holiday...."

THAT's A LIE!!!!!! It's FACTUALLY INCORRECT!!!

The VAF1 Application Form: Section 6.11 when asking 'Who will pay for this trip', clearly states 'THE SPONSORS'

and our sponsorship letter (signed by myself), clearly states 'we as sponsors shall be fully funding this holiday – we will be paying for the ‘applicants’ return air tickets/flights in full....

and also we state,

"We shall also be accommodating the applicant and her children during their stay in the UK"


- Thats like a policeman arresting & charging someone for using a mobile whilst driving, only to find out that the driver was actually scrating his ear and no mobile was ever present!!!

I think I am losing it........very nervous now.

gollywood wrote:Sent the files off to the A.I.T today (The actual Applicantst file/Our Sponsors file that we submitted 1st time round, and a 3rd file with a list of Appendices that I will be referring to for the hearing.

Quite nervous about this as hearing is next week.

How long do hearings last (Visitor Visa hearings)?

Whats the format? They ask - you speak and so on, or they say their bit and then they give me time to go through our 'case'?

Crappin it actually!

hi again mate, our appeal hearing took about 20-30 minutes. when you arrive at the tribunal office there is a list of hearings and you look to see which room you are in and what time your case will be heard. there is a waiting room and private rooms for discussions between yourself and your solicitor, if you have one. as for the hearing itself, it is quite relaxed and informal. i would suggest that you go a little early and sit in the hearing room and listen to a couple of cases that are heard before yours. you are allowed to do this as an observer. do this in the room that your case will be heard and try to observe other visitor appeals. this will help you understand what the home office rep may ask you and also give you an idea about the judge and also get you used to the room. the appeal itself will consist of the judge asking the home office to make a short speech about the application of your sister in law (the APPELLANT) and why they refused the visa. it will then be your turn to put forward your case and this is your chance to convince the judge that the case is genuine and that your sister in law fulfills all the requirements. you can at this stage put forward why you think the home office is wrong. the re for the home office may ask you some questions at this point to clarify any points. remember it isnt personal between the home office and you, they are just working to rules...put your case to the judge and address him/her as "your honour". after both sides have been put to the judge he/she will go over the case summary with you and may or may not give you a judgement there and then.( he did with my case and stated the visa should be issued asap as he couldnt see anything other than a genuine visit). hope it goes well, let us know.

also replied to your pm

Went to one of the AIT courts today to get a feel for it.

Not as intimidating as I thought.

Sat in on 2 cases.

In one, the guy trying to bring his wife & child over was amazingly under-prepared. Judge also had a few harsh words for the HO rep, who hadnt submitted a file.

Judge said he would have awarded the sponsor costs if it was in his power!!! Adjourned for 2 weeks.

Next case was a visitor visa appeal.

HO rep was so arrogant - again failed to submit a file, and requested an adjournment. Judge told her where to to stick her request, and said he would report back to the sponsor with his decision in 10 days.

gollywood wrote:Went to one of the AIT courts today to get a feel for it.
Not as intimidating as I thought.

Sat in on 2 cases.

In one, the guy trying to bring his wife & child over was amazingly under-prepared. Judge also had a few harsh words for the HO rep, who hadnt submitted a file.

Judge said he would have awarded the sponsor costs if it was in his power!!! Adjourned for 2 weeks.

Next case was a visitor visa appeal.

HO rep was so arrogant - again failed to submit a file, and requested an adjournment. Judge told her where to to stick her request, and said he would report back to the sponsor with his decision in 10 days.

Gosh!You must have loads of free time on your hands to be doing the rounds of the AIT just to get a 'feel of it'

thirdwave wrote:

gollywood wrote:Went to one of the AIT courts today to get a feel for it.
Not as intimidating as I thought.

Sat in on 2 cases.

In one, the guy trying to bring his wife & child over was amazingly under-prepared. Judge also had a few harsh words for the HO rep, who hadnt submitted a file.

Judge said he would have awarded the sponsor costs if it was in his power!!! Adjourned for 2 weeks.

Next case was a visitor visa appeal.

HO rep was so arrogant - again failed to submit a file, and requested an adjournment. Judge told her where to to stick her request, and said he would report back to the sponsor with his decision in 10 days.

Gosh!You must have loads of free time on your hands to be doing the rounds of the AIT just to get a 'feel of it'

AIT court is only located 15 mins away from me:)

Don't call the Judge 'Your honour' call him 'Sir'... or Madam.

And good luck.

Victoria