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What do you mean by certified?Sten wrote:The one we've got is certified but the local embassy refuse to stamp it. What is chance of getting a vise if we send it like as it is ?
The right to enter France in the company of her UK national spouse is derived from their relationship alone and is no way connected with an ILR endorsement in her passport.napers wrote:she has a right to cross on the residents permit equivalent (her ILR stamp) if she's an EEA spouse
She has the right, but they can still insist on a visa if she doesn't have the ILR stamp (they'll try to deflect the right to saying she has a right to the visa instead). Better to use 2004/38 exemption from the visa:The right to enter France in the company of her UK national spouse is derived from their relationship alone and is no way connected with an ILR endorsement in her passport.
The residence card equivalent in the UK for this is the ILR stamp, she also needs to prove she's entitled to use 2004/38, the French consulate wants the ILR stamped 'EEA Family member' to confirm that to the border guard, although they have to accept any other proof of this.2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall EXEMPT
such family members from the visa requirement.
The ILR stamp is certainly not an equivalent fo the RC. As Ben already said the ILR is meaningless in this context. The proof of entitlement to the Directive is the marriage certificate, properly certified and possibly translated into French.napers wrote:The residence card equivalent in the UK for this is the ILR stamp, she also needs to prove she's entitled to use 2004/38
Can you describe how it went the times you did it? Did they ask you to come into their office? Did they issue a Schengen visa or something else?napers wrote:But as I say, I've never had a problem with French border control, they know spouses with residence stamps or permits have a right to go without a visa, they just want to check she is indeed a spouse and only wants a short visit and not to emigrate.
Directive 2004/38/EC, we went to Dover with her passport with an ILR stamp, my passport (British) and in my bag was our UK wedding certificate and a printout of 2004/38 just in case. We do not get stopped usually, not even a check, the French border control waves us through (6 crossing that way).Can you describe how it went the times you did it?
That's under 5(4) .napers, your wife's passport, your passport (or National ID card) and your marriage cert is sufficient for entry to France in conformity with Directive 2004/38/EC.
Under 5(2) + Article 26 with my highlights,The ILR stamp within your wife's passport is totally irrelevant. An ILR stamp is also not related to the residence card of a family member of a Union citizen referred to in § 10 of the Directive.
1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of A RESIDENCE CARD or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by ANY OTHER MEANS OF PROOF.
I believe I understand it, but please feel free to put me right. All I ask is you quote something more substantial to back up what your saying.Ben wrote:Respectfully, you are again failing to understand that an ILR stamp is not, nor is it related to in any way, the residence card of a family member of a Union citizen referred to in § 10 of the Directive. ILR is issued under the Immigration Rules, not under The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.
I assert that this card is simply evidence to a right, the right of residence in an EEA state. I assert that the ILR is the SAME EVIDENCE to the same right of residence in an EEA. I assert that Article 26 applies, that it is equivalent proof of right to residence in an EEA state.1. The RIGHT OF RESIDENCE of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State SHALL BE EVIDENCED by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.
And that's the flaw in your argument. You would have to answer why there is the need for two fundamentally different laws if they documented the very same thing? Or put differently: why did you pay hundreds if not thousands of pounds to obtain that ILR for your spouse while (permanent) residence card holders paid exactly zero?napers wrote:I assert that this card is simply evidence to a right, the right of residence in an EEA state. I assert that the ILR is the SAME EVIDENCE to the same right of residence in an EEA.
32 different laws to obtain the same thing surely (French system grants right of residence in an EEA country, UK system grants right of residence to an EEA Country, and 30 other EEA countries have 30 other laws all of which grant residence in an EEA country).You would have to answer why there is the need for two fundamentally different laws if they documented the very same thing?
Because they didn't, a French person with non-EEA spouse would have paid the French costs plus zero when they transferred to the UK, likewise a Brit paid the UK costs of settlement visa plus zero to transfer to France."Or put differently: why did you pay hundreds if not thousands of pounds to obtain that ILR for your spouse while (permanent) residence card holders paid exactly zero?"
No. A residence card documents the rights under the very specific conditions laid out in the Directive and related case law. If there is no EEA context ("cross-border element") the Directive simply doesn't apply. In your case this only comes into play when you cross the border but not before. The ILR was still issued under national legislation and this is evidence that it is legally something entirely different.napers wrote:They're no fundamental difference in the context of Article 10, because Article 10 defines it as a paper that evidences a right of residence in an EEA country and all 33 (32+1) are the same in that context.
napers wrote:I get an EEA permit for my Spouse issued before 2004. How could it be issued under Article 10, if Article 10 didn't exist yet. Yet every country behaves as if it was. All of them recognize EU family residence permits issued under previous laws as issued under Article 10. Even though it was issued under a previous EU law. Ergo equivalence is what countries are doing now.
You stayed in the car the whole time? Did even bother stamping the passport?napers wrote:There has been one time when French passport control in Dover stopped us, we handed passports plus return ferry ticket to him (nothing else). He asked us if we live here (in UK), I said yes and motioned to the ILR stamp in her passport, he handed the passport back and waved us through.
I flew to Dublin with my wife for day trip. She did not have a "required" visa. The border guard's boss was acting a bit of a jerk, but the border guard himself was fine. Passports+marriage certificate= entry to Ireland.napers wrote:So I see people beating themselves up over the visa, and I scratch my head at it, as many point out the way to use 2004/38 is to just use it and show a bit of gumption.
Very specific conditions? Which specific conditions under Article 10 are not also filled by every other EEA Residence permits, except for being issued under Article 10 itself?No. A residence card documents the rights under the very specific conditions laid out in the Directive and related case law.
You see your previous argument is that its special because it's issued under Article 10, i.e. the only specific condition you have argued is the article number/law it is issued under.An ILR stamp is not a residence card based on Artcile 10 and thus you cannot use Article 5(2)
Reverse that, if you are saying that non-equivalent things are ones NOT issued under Article 10 of 2004, then you break your argument by also apply it to permits issued under the national versions of 68/360/EEC....Do they? Just because they do doesn't mean that your assertion of equivalence is true.
It's a football match, you don't try to convince the other team they lost, you try to convince the referee.BTW, don't bother convincing me.
The EEA national needs to exercise treaty rights for the non-EEA family member to be entitled to a residence card. There are no EEA residence permits issued under Article 10 even though you claim that legacy permits issued under now obsolete laws are treated as such.napers wrote:Very specific conditions? Which specific conditions under Article 10 are not also filled by every other EEA Residence permits, except for being issued under Article 10 itself?86ti wrote:No. A residence card documents the rights under the very specific conditions laid out in the Directive and related case law.
I can , and you even do not have to go to the depths of the internet. It's right here. Remember?Ben wrote:napers, I'm thinking of going on the internets and trying to argue with people that black is blue. Could you give me a few pointers?
Oh god.... Yes, I remember republique.86ti wrote:I can , and you even do not have to go to the depths of the internet. It's right here. Remember?Ben wrote:napers, I'm thinking of going on the internets and trying to argue with people that black is blue. Could you give me a few pointers?