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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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uhtred
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by uhtred » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:01 pm

frigglekick wrote: I am really confused about the 'prior lawful residence' bit. Does it mean prior lawful residence at any point in time? i.e. would my two years in the UK on a tier 5 visa count?
In my humble opinion, you will have a continous lawful residence if you leave the UK while you still have leave to remain ( meaning, before the expiry of your leave) and you arrive back in the UK within 6 months and have a valid leave on entrace. (https://www.freemovement.org.uk/new-con ... ce-policy/)

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Santanaronaldo1 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:01 pm

I Don't think their intention is to shut down Surinder Singh route all in all. they just intend to made it harder, which is reasonable, however how? who knows.
And the quote prior lawful residence, to my knowledge, and what i have read regarding this on a legal law firms website. it's regarding illegals in the UK ( or eu perhaps ) marrying an eu national in order to obtain residence in the country, i know this for a fact that i know loads of people illegal in the uk, that once marrying an eu citizen, they obtained right to remain.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:39 pm

The "Prior lawful residence" requirement will also often stop Frenchmen bringing their non-EEA wives from outside the EEA to the UK more easily than can British citizens in the UK, and this is something David Cameron exulted about.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Casa » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:48 pm

We should be clear here, before there are complaints that I'm sure the intention wasn't to single out 'Frenchmen'. :|
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:58 am

Santanaronaldo1 wrote: And the quote prior lawful residence, to my knowledge, and what i have read regarding this on a legal law firms website. it's regarding illegals in the UK ( or eu perhaps ) marrying an eu national in order to obtain residence in the country, i know this for a fact that i know loads of people illegal in the uk, that once marrying an eu citizen, they obtained right to remain.
Has there been any official news stating if this is true or not? Will we definitely not know until June, or is there a chance for it to be clarified sooner? It would be referring to non-eea spouses in both the UK and EU.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Casa » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:23 am

shnooks1 wrote:
Santanaronaldo1 wrote: And the quote prior lawful residence, to my knowledge, and what i have read regarding this on a legal law firms website. it's regarding illegals in the UK ( or eu perhaps ) marrying an eu national in order to obtain residence in the country, i know this for a fact that i know loads of people illegal in the uk, that once marrying an eu citizen, they obtained right to remain.
Has there been any official news stating if this is true or not? Will we definitely not know until June, or is there a chance for it to be clarified sooner? It would be referring to non-eea spouses in both the UK and EU.
No there hasn't. I believe that this was Santanaronaldo1's personal interpretation. :|
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by vinny » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:53 am

Ramifications of (b)?
2. General interpretation wrote:“spouse” does not include—

(a) a party to a marriage of convenience; or

(b) the spouse (“S”) of a person (“P”) where a spouse, civil partner or durable partner of S or P is already present in the United Kingdom;
2. General interpretation wrote:“civil partner” does not include—

(a) a party to a civil partnership of convenience; or

(b) the civil partner (“C”) of a person (“P”) where a spouse, civil partner or durable partner of C or P is already present in the United Kingdom;
2. General interpretation wrote:“durable partner” does not include the durable partner (“D”) of a person (“P”) where a spouse, civil partner or durable partner of D or P is already present in the United Kingdom and where that marriage, civil partnership or durable partnership is subsisting;
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:09 pm

Tosh. However, it's a good example of how badly the regulations can be drafted.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:15 pm

That's not a recent change - it came in on 22nd June 2012 http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Archive/V20120622
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Dirk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:27 pm

The idea of "prior lawful residence" will make things more difficult but not impossible. About half of EU states apply the same rules to spouses of EU citizens as they do their own citizens. Even those who have stricter rules are nowhere near as bad as the ones in the UK.

When we applied for my wife's Residence Card in Spain we got chatting with a couple where the husband was American and wife Spanish. The process was more difficult than for us but it is one we could have done ourselves so not much worse. Ireland however may decide to massively up their requirements as they already seem to feel aggrieved that Britons are using it as a springboard to get back home by creating huge waiting times for C visas and Residence Cards. Currently Ireland, Spain and Malta seem to be the choice destinations for Surinder Singh route route applicants, this change may simply just change the countries people use.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Sincejune » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:03 am

Dirk wrote:The idea of "prior lawful residence" will make things more difficult but not impossible. About half of EU states apply the same rules to spouses of EU citizens as they do their own citizens. Even those who have stricter rules are nowhere near as bad as the ones in the UK.

When we applied for my wife's Residence Card in Spain we got chatting with a couple where the husband was American and wife Spanish. The process was more difficult than for us but it is one we could have done ourselves so not much worse. Ireland however may decide to massively up their requirements as they already seem to feel aggrieved that Britons are using it as a springboard to get back home by creating huge waiting times for C visas and Residence Cards. Currently Ireland, Spain and Malta seem to be the choice destinations for Surinder Singh route route applicants, this change may simply just change the countries people use.

Hi dirk

How long is the wait in Spain for spouse EEA residence card after find a job or registering as a self employed?

Thanks.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Dirk » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:11 am

How long is a piece if string. Depends on the local office. The EU needs to get their green NIE card first which is relatively easy though if you're self employed you will need evidence of this from the department of social security. Once you have the green NIE card from the National Police toddle into your local "foreigners office" you may need an appointment online dependkng where you live. Just need marriage certificate tranated into Spanish, your green NIE and bizarrely a photocopy of every page of the non EU passport. It took about 6 weeks to get a decision, then booked an appointment to provide biometrics then they say "come back in 30 days" after you've done that.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by thommot » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:11 pm

manu_uk wrote:To put a bright note on this...
I non eea family members need to comply with UK law, that doesn´t mean they are not allowed to live in the UK, it just means that the process to get a visa/permit will be different. Of course could be harder or have limitations (for example income minimum limit). Some people miss this.
Being positive, you can take advantage of the premium service to get the visa on the same day instead of wait 6 months....
Personally, worse than the income limits are the frankly sadistic fees that British citizens face when not being able to take the Surinder-Singh route, and that might be extended to EU citizens as well: http://britcits.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/ ... 01229.html
And these are still the old fees from more than a year ago; they were only recently significantly increased.

The only hope seems to be that not being permanent resident, the Tier visa fees apply instead, which are a little bit more humane... unless the EU citizen themself also has to get a Tier visa to bring a non-EU spouse into the country. Then the fees would again rise to inhumane levels.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:54 pm

The current government in the UK has broadly adopted a "user pays" policy when it comes to government funding, be it in transport (higher fares, lower subsidies), housing (more private, less social housing) and benefits (lower, just lower).

It is therefore not surprising that such a policy is extended to immigration, with users of the immigration system footing the bill for the immigration system.

Given that half the migrants to the UK do not pay anything (they can live in the UK on their original passport anyway) and even when they do, only pay a pittance of £65, it is unsurprising that the burden of financing the immigration system falls completely on the half of the immigration system that is obliged to pay, the non-EEA migrants.

Were there to be a Brexit, I would not expect the fees to fall, but I would expect that migrants from the rEEA would be expected to start contributing more fully towards the costs of the immigration system. That should stop the upwards spiral of the immigration fees, though given the inelastic nature of demand for immigration services, I do not expect to see a fall in fees.

For reference, here is a link to the latest immigration fees table on the Gov.uk website. The Fees for ILR have jumped from £1093 in 2014 to £1875 in 2016, an increase of 72% in two years.
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by thommot » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:36 pm

secret.simon wrote:The current government in the UK has broadly adopted a "user pays" policy when it comes to government funding, be it in transport (higher fares, lower subsidies), housing (more private, less social housing) and benefits (lower, just lower).
How would an EU migrant burden the immigration system at all? The vast majority of them do not come into any contact with the system, besides the (ridiculous) passport control, which should be funded through airport taxes. In the link I posted the average cost of every immigration decision is reported to be £182. EU permits and short-term tourists visas have lower cost, so it's reasonable that more permanent visas could cost more. According to the article the government says that the cost of a spouse visa is £278, which is about 1/3rd of the current fee! The actual cost is roughly in line with the fees of other countries that I know of. To the already inflated fee a massive healthcare surcharge is applied, despite at least one of the couple having to work and pay taxes to even get the visa! Most likely both will work and pay taxes. The high fees are therefore purely punitive.

http://britcits.blogspot.com/2015/04/br ... 01229.html

Direct link to government average cost PDF: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... l_Data.pdf

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:52 pm

Normally, when setting the fees and charges for users of a large national service, the cost of maintaining the presence of the infrastructure is spread across all users of that infrastructure, even if they do not use a significant part of that service.

Part of my transport fares almost certainly funds transport in remote parts of Scotland. The immigration fees paid by me likely also funds a part of the immigration appeals process, which I have never had to use. The profits that the Royal Mail gets in London (where it is cheaper to deliver letters) are used to cross-subsidise services in the Outer Hebrides, where it is more expensive.

So, your argument about the cost of individual visa applications and of EEA citizens not having to pay for a service is not entirely correct. I can appreciate that EEA citizens do not utilise a service, but their non-EEA family members do and they should be treated as being on par with the same application for the family member of a British citizen.

Another picture of the situation comes from the Home Office Annual Report and Accounts 2014-15 (the most recent I could find). Page 114 suggests that in financial year 2014-15, UKV&I makes a nett income (monopoly profit perhaps :?) of about £182 million and the HMPO of £104 million, both of which were however, completely subsumed by an expenditure of £436 million on Immigration Enforcement.

Now, to you, it may seem that the cost of immigration enforcement should not be applied to you as you have not broken any laws (presumably), but to an external analyst, the cost of the system should be borne by all users, not just ones benefiting (or not) from it.

PS: There are some really interesting stats in that report. Page 120 states that there are 6,315 people in UKV&I and 4811 staff in Immigration Enforcement. So, almost 80% as much staff in Immigration Enforcement as in the whole of UKV&I. And the HMPO get by on 3352 staff, just half of the UKV&I.
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by thommot » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:11 pm

secret.simon wrote: So, your argument about the cost of individual visa applications and of EEA citizens not having to pay for a service is not entirely correct. I can appreciate that EEA citizens do not utilise a service, but their non-EEA family members do and they should be treated as being on par with the same application for the family member of a British citizen.
I agree that it should be the same rules, but the humane EU rules, not the sadistic UK rules.
Now, to you, it may seem that the cost of immigration enforcement should not be applied to you as you have not broken any laws (presumably), but to an external analyst, the cost of the system should be borne by all users, not just ones benefiting (or not) from it.
How about the massive healthcare surcharges, which make a significant part of the visa fees? I'm already paying for healthcare in my taxes. My wife would probably also have to pay taxes in the UK. Even if she didn't work and pay taxes, if they impose healthcare surcharges on my wife, by your logic of sharing the costs, shouldn't the non-working (non tax-paying) member of an entirely British couple also pay a yearly fee for healthcare?

I'm definitely not going to pay those fees, if they start applying them to my wife. We had a huge fight to get the EEA Family Permit, and will not be able to apply for the EU-style residency card until the autumn as it's difficult to arrange for half a hear without travel. This may already be too late. If it is, I will leave. As someone who recently started in a permanent academic position, and is being trained for such a permanent role in a publicly funded institution, I think the UK will lose more money that way than it would gain by ripping us off through those fees.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:27 pm

thommot wrote:I agree that it should be the same rules, but the humane EU rules, not the sadistic UK rules.
Fifty Shades of Grey was written by a British author. Perhaps sadism does come easily to a country that has predominantly grey weather.

But in any case, I am sure you would agree that it is for a democratically elected government, and not for a person having an interest in the outcome, to make the rules.
thommot wrote: How about the massive healthcare surcharges, which make a significant part of the visa fees?
Firstly these fees have come in in the recent past. The way I see it, it is the equivalent of making up the NI contributions for the years before you emigrated, though I would be happier (as I am sure many people would be) if they counted formally as NI payments for specified number of years.
thommot wrote:shouldn't the non-working (non tax-paying) spouses of British citizens also pay a yearly fee for healthcare?
Non-EEA spouses of British citizens are subject to IHS during their immigration journey.
thommot wrote:As someone who recently started in a permanent academic position, and is being trained for such a permanent role in a publicly funded institution,
I am disappointed that for somebody in the academic field, your arguments are not more balanced and better supported by facts (if they are backed by facts, they have not been cited and hence can't be challenged).

I am not an academic (but aspire to be one someday when I won't do any damage to anybody by thinking an original thought), but I think the core duty of an academic is to provoke thought by going against the current and by citing facts and arguing the side that is not popular. The academic has a duty to be society's devil advocate.
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by thommot » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:28 pm

I also do wonder how other countries have much lower fees, yet not any higher tax rate? Perhaps because the rich don't pay any taxes in the UK? (The NI is a big hoax, as you stop paying the NI exactly when there's some progression in the tax rate.)

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by thommot » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:32 pm

But in any case, I am sure you would agree that it is for a democratically elected government, and not for a person having an interest in the outcome, to make the rules.
There also things called human rights, which I'm sure the UK rules for spousal visas violate if they ever get challenged in an independent court. Of course the UK also wants to leave the jurisdiction of the european court of human rights.
Non-EEA spouses of British citizens are subject to IHS during their immigration journey.
I clarified the post to say "an entirely British couple".
I am disappointed that for somebody in the academic field, your arguments are not more balanced and better supported by facts (if they are backed by facts, they have not been cited and hence can't be challenged).
A £1200/year fee is an increase of 4 percentage points to my tax rate. ~10% for someone at the lower income limit to even get the visa. Since percentages can be hard, to clarify, those two numbers are something you add to the usual tax rate, or a fraction of what you pay of your income above the standard personal allowance. There's some facts for you. That is not humane and fair by any standards, and only a government that only represents the super-rich would come up with such fees.

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