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What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

rooibos
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What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by rooibos » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:49 pm

I wasn't sure where to post, either here or the EEA forum, so moderators please feel free to move it accordingly.

Do we know for sure what will become of applications for permanent residence for EU citizens in case of Brexit?

I'm not taking for those who have already received or are in the process of applying. I'm taking of cases of people who haven't applied already, either because, as in my case, we don't have all documents ready, or those who haven't matured the 5 years by the 23rd of June.

I see 3 possible outcomes:

1) PR certificates or cards will be issued until the exit process has been fully completed.

2) PR certificates or cards will definitely not be issued any longer.

3) We don't know for sure.

In case 3) is it worth sending a freedom of information request?

Any guinea pigs wants to send one?

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Casa » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:09 pm

Freedom of information request? What would that achieve? No one including the Government presumably knows what changes there would be if there was a vote to leave the EU. Anything would be pure speculation. :|
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secret.simon
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:42 pm

Is the OP's question about PR applications after a possible Brexit or after a vote to stay in, with the UK-EU deal?

This article in the Telegraph should afford some comfort. It is written by leading people in the Leave camp and it seems that even they recognise that people already in the UK will continue to be governed by existing regulations.
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rooibos
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by rooibos » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:55 pm

secret.simon wrote:Is the OP's question about PR applications after a possible Brexit or after a vote to stay in, with the UK-EU deal?

This article in the Telegraph should afford some comfort. It is written by leading people in the Leave camp and it seems that even they recognise that people already in the UK will continue to be governed by existing regulations.
My question was in case of Brexit.

The article you linked doesn't address my question. It's OK to say that the existing legislation will continue to be applied until a new agreement is reached (if any). But why should the HO keep on releasing new PR documents if the whole concept ceases to exist?

I'm surprised that the senior posters on this forum haven't thought of this possibility.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by secret.simon » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:58 am

rooibos wrote:The article you linked doesn't address my question. It's OK to say that the existing legislation will continue to be applied until a new agreement is reached (if any). But why should the HO keep on releasing new PR documents if the whole concept ceases to exist?
I would have thought the answer was fairly obvious.

The government, of which the Home Office is a part, officially advocates for staying in the EU and keeping the current rules. It can hardly therefore plan for alternatives openly in case of Brexit.

Secondly, after a Brexit, logically, cases that are currently already in train will continue under the current arrangements, as that article suggests. Subsequent applications would fall under the Immigration Rules in the absence of an alternative plan. So that is taken care of as well.
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Richard W » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:19 pm

secret.simon wrote:Subsequent applications would fall under the Immigration Rules in the absence of an alternative plan. So that is taken care of as well.
I suspect statutory instruments enacted under the European Communities Act 1972 would remain in force until individually repealed. If the Immigration (EEA) Regulations were simply repealed, most foreign EEA residents in the UK would suddenly become illegal immigrants, and we don't think that's going to happen.

One thing that might happen quite quickly is that registration certificates and residence cards might become mandatory. That would be completely compatible with the EU directive. The difference between these documents and and visas might then start to disappear.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by rooibos » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:51 pm

OK, let me rephrase my question. What piece of legislation introduced the document certifying permanent residence? And would it become invalid the moment the UK initiates the exit procedure?

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by ohara » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:56 pm

EEA residence documentation is optional, not mandatory.

I imagine not many people applied for a DCPR in the past because you simply didn't need it. I didn't even know it existed!

It's only since it was required for those wishing to naturalise after 12th November 2015 that a lot of people suddenly started applying for them.

The letter that you get with the DCPR says you should present it to immigration at the UK border when entering the country, although even if you don't have one, you will normally be admitted on the basis that you are an EEA citizen with free movement rights anyway. So they admit themselves it is somewhat pointless having it.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by secret.simon » Sun May 01, 2016 4:47 am

rooibos wrote:What piece of legislation introduced the document certifying permanent residence?
Directive 2004/38/EC, implemented into UK law by the EEA Regulations under the European Communities Act 1972.
rooibos wrote:And would it become invalid the moment the UK initiates the exit procedure?
The UK will remain a part of the EU for at least two years after initiating Brexit and hence EU law will still apply.

However, some MPs and peers (such as Lord Lawson of Blaby) are advocating for the European Communities Act 1972 to be repealed overnight in the event of a Brexit.
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Richard W » Sun May 01, 2016 8:36 am

secret.simon wrote:
rooibos wrote:What piece of legislation introduced the document certifying permanent residence?
Directive 2004/38/EC, implemented into UK law by the EEA Regulations under the European Communities Act 1972.
Transposed into British Law by the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, a statutory instrument (SI) made under Section 2(2) of the act cited above. Permanent residence in the EEA sense didn't exist until then. There's probably some other SI prescribing the form of the document.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by rooibos » Sun May 08, 2016 10:23 am

Thanks for your contributions.

My understanding is that the UK can legally repeal the 2006 regulations overnight in a Brexit event (however unlikely it might be) and legally suspend the concession of DCPR and /or British citizenship to EU citizens.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Richard W » Wed May 11, 2016 9:45 pm

rooibos wrote:My understanding is that the UK can legally repeal the 2006 regulations overnight in a Brexit event (however unlikely it might be) and legally suspend the concession of DCPR and /or British citizenship to EU citizens.
British citizenship is a separate issue. The right to naturalise can be withdrawn at any time, regardless of whether Britain is in the EU or EEA. Similarly, the rules about when children born in the UK are born British have nothing to do with the EU directive or, so far as we are aware, EU law. UK governments have chosen to treat permanent residence as implying settled status.

Permanent residence itself, on the other hand, is basically a right under EU law, and it would require primary legislation to remove it other than as part of the withdrawal process, under which changes would be by agreement with the EU.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by rooibos » Thu May 12, 2016 12:20 pm

Richard W wrote:
Permanent residence itself, on the other hand, is basically a right under EU law, and it would require primary legislation to remove it other than as part of the withdrawal process, under which changes would be by agreement with the EU.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, the minute after the UK informs the EU of its intention to leave, the UK is entitled to repeal any EU legislation, regardless of a negotiation in progress.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Richard W » Thu May 12, 2016 8:34 pm

rooibos wrote:But, correct me if I'm wrong, the minute after the UK informs the EU of its intention to leave, the UK is entitled to repeal any EU legislation, regardless of a negotiation in progress.
Not under the treaties. However, if Parliament is sovereign...

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by secret.simon » Fri May 13, 2016 6:21 pm

rooibos wrote:the minute after the UK informs the EU of its intention to leave, the UK is entitled to repeal any EU legislation, regardless of a negotiation in progress.
Are you talking from an English constitutional point of view, a political point of view or an EU institutions point of view? They all differ and will all give you different answers.

From an English constitutional point of view, Parliament is sovereign and can repeal the European Communities Act 1972 tomorrow (well actually only after the 18th, because Parliament is prorogued at the moment, but that is by the bye). The existence or otherwise of the EU Treaties and the UK's membership of the EU is irrelevant in terms of English constitutional law.

Conversely, from the EU institutions' point of view, the UK remains subject to EU law until two years after the UK formally submits a request to leave the EU under Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The EU treaties are a complex beast, because they are a sui generis blend of public international law (which applies to all subjects of international law, mostly all nation states, but also bodies such the Holy See and Sovereign Military Order of Malta) and the EU acquis communtaire, the very EU-specific and unique developments in the field of law. Where one ends and the other starts is a great matter for academic debate.

In the UK constitutional framework, treaties are ratified by the Privy Council (in actual fact, the C abinet by another name), but are implemented into domestic law by Parliament. There could thus be the chance of a gap between the treaties that the UK has accepted and its domestic implementation, which is avoided by the reality of the C abinet having a majority in the Commons and the ability of the Commons to override the Lords.

The politicians' view is to have to reconcile the two. So, although Parliament can, in theory, repeal the laws at any time, the politicians in it won't do it until at least two years after the application to leave the EU is submitted.

To the mods/admin - Why is the word "C abinet" considered spam? Can it be taken off the spam list?
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Noetic » Sun May 15, 2016 8:53 pm

I kind of love that somehow this forum considers "c*binet" to be a naughty word...

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by Casa » Sun May 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Noetic wrote:I kind of love that somehow this forum considers "c*binet" to be a naughty word...
You may have already guessed, but it's due to the amount of spam posts selling k i t c h e n c a b i n e t s :wink:
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Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by secret.simon » Sun May 15, 2016 10:35 pm

Never mind what happens to new PR applications after Brexit, the Home office has stated that it is not sure what would be the legal status of people who have already got Permanent Residence under the EEA Regulations.

EU citizens in UK face Brexit uncertainty

And the slightly scarier Three million EU citizens in the UK could be deported if Britons vote for a 'Brexit', Home Office suggests.
Ministers were asked in the House of Lords “whether it is their intention that, in the event of the UK leaving the EU, citizens of EU member states who had previously settled in the UK would be entitled automatically to remain”.

In reply, Lord Keen of Elie, a Government minister, said: “As set out in the Government’s White Paper: ‘The process for withdrawing from the European Union’, published on 29 February, the withdrawal process is unprecedented.

“No country has ever used Article 50 – it is untested. There is a great deal of uncertainty about how it would work.

“UK citizens get the right to live and work in the other 27 member states from our membership of the EU.

“If the UK voted to leave the EU, the Government would do all it could to secure a positive outcome for the country, but there would be no requirement under EU law for these rights to be maintained.”
Note that the position of the Home office is technically correct. There is no requirement under EU law for permanent residence status to persist if a country were to leave the EU.

However, it does not follow that PR automatically ceases. It could be that the UK Parliament can legislate to convert PR for those who already have it into ILR or it could be held as a status in future on its own, without being open to new applicants, as many categories of British nationality already are. It is not impossible, indeed, it is very probable, that this would be a part of the Brexit negotiations and hence subject to the Exit treaty.

So, on this point, I would suggest, calm down and carry on.
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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by VinGam » Wed May 18, 2016 11:48 am

In or Out, I did PR before Brexit.

I think none knows what's going to happen.
If they go out maybe UE citizens will have to:
  • Apply for IRL
  • Leave the country
  • Carry on as usual
EEA DCPR timeline
Documents sent: 24.02.16; DCPR received:14.05.16; Total: 80 days
Naturalisation timeline
Document sent: 16.12.16; Biometric: 11.01.2017; Approval 21.02.2017; Ceremony 06.03.2017; Passport Received 13.03.2017; Total: 87 days

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Re: What will happen to new PR applications after Brexit?

Post by VinGam » Wed May 18, 2016 12:05 pm

Sorry, clicked submit button by mistake. Here's the full question:
In or out, I got my DCPR before Brexit.

I think none knows what's going to happen.
If they go out maybe UE citizens will have to:
  • Apply for IRL or DPCR;
    Have a job or study in order to stay;
    Leave the country;
    Carry on as usual;
Or maybe UK will stay and nothing will happen.

However, I am wondering about the British Nationality application.
Currently, EU you must have 5 years exercising EC Treaty Rights in UK and 1 year PR status while non-EU must have 10years work/study in UK and 1 year ILR.
If UK goes out, what will happen?
If EU has PR:
  • Will have to wait 10 years anyway as he/she will be aligned to "non-EU" rules?
    Will have to convert DCPR into IRL in order to apply for British Nationality? (This will be tedious for both applicants and HO)
    Will carry on with 5years + 1 of DCPR as usual?
    Any change will be applied at least after 2 years UK left EU?
I can apply for BN in December, it will be a annoying if I will find myself out for few months!
EEA DCPR timeline
Documents sent: 24.02.16; DCPR received:14.05.16; Total: 80 days
Naturalisation timeline
Document sent: 16.12.16; Biometric: 11.01.2017; Approval 21.02.2017; Ceremony 06.03.2017; Passport Received 13.03.2017; Total: 87 days

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