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1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system

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rahul190
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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by rahul190 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:22 am

Cashier as job title

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marcnath
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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by marcnath » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:41 am

rahul190 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:22 am
Cashier as job title
Ok. So if you are post April 2014, it looks like HO is taking an unreasonable view on this. So, you need to be prepared for a possible rejection.

There must be some reason why you need two cashiers - is it because you need them for two different shifts or because your business volume is large enough to need two of them to handle it.

If it is the former, then the Job Titles can be Cashier-shift1 and Cashier-shift2. Otherwise Just Cashier1 and Cashier2.

While I think those rejections reported so far will get overturned in AR, if you want you can always do the correction above, update the Table 3B2 and send it in with a covering letter explaining that it is two separate jobs and the reason why.

Difficult to say if the two rejections were an exception or is a new HO approach - so up to you whether you want to do it or not.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by rahul190 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:58 am

It can be explained for having one job title as business have big turnover which can be identified by final accounts

And job title(cashier) has breakdown in 2 full time jobs with few employees

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marcnath
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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by marcnath » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:07 am

rahul190 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:58 am
It can be explained for having one job title as business have big turnover which can be identified by final accounts

And job title(cashier) has breakdown in 2 full time jobs with few employees
I think it should not be a problem - but just be prepared for the hassle of a rejection followed by AR. I doubt if HO will be able to justify rejection based on same job title but unfortunately, nothing stops them from trying :(
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by rahul190 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:19 am

Yeah will do, appreciate your help, thank you

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by Manu_cal » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:24 pm

I have a health care agency and been employing 7 part timers all as Care Support workers. I dont think that should be an issue that why I have employed people with the same Job title. I am pre April 2014 applicant. waiting for my renewal decision from march 17. Dont worry mate you will be fine.

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by rahul190 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:05 pm

Thank you for your response.

Even representative has never mentioned such points, refused applicants have different reasons on individual cases and we all are prepared to face and deal with it.

Wish you a good luck and hope you come up with positive outcome soon.

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by Zimba » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:16 pm

For post April 2014, the rules say you need to create two separate positions but they do not say that two positions must not be identical.
Such decision should be returned in AR
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1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by Bhavin002 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:55 pm

Dear all,
My visa application for tier 1 entrepreneur extension was rejected. Applied for Admin review, HO changed/updated the original decision and gave second chance of AR.
1st. Rejection: The both Employees have same job title.
1St. AR :HO Accepted they have separate job roles.
Reason for rejection: They accepted one employee as a full time. Another one I claimed April 14 to April 15 as a fulltime employee. But they say employee is only 7 months full time other months he worked part time. They figured out fulltime employment means at least 30 hrs/week and 130 hrs/ month throughout. How does 130 hrs/ month come? I don't understand.

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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by Zimba » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:17 pm

52 weeks and each week must be at least 30 hours to claim full time employment.
130 hours per month is the same as above but instead uses monthly calculation, which is 4.3 weeks per month x 30 hours
As you can see 130 hours x 12 months = 30 hours x 52 weeks
Advice is given based on my personal research and experience only. Do NOT contact me via private message for immigration advice

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marcnath
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by marcnath » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:20 pm

Bhavin002 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:55 pm
Dear all,
My visa application for tier 1 entrepreneur extension was rejected. Applied for Admin review, HO changed/updated the original decision and gave second chance of AR.
1st. Rejection: The both Employees have same job title.
1St. AR :HO Accepted they have separate job roles.
Reason for rejection: They accepted one employee as a full time. Another one I claimed April 14 to April 15 as a fulltime employee. But they say employee is only 7 months full time other months he worked part time. They figured out fulltime employment means at least 30 hrs/week and 130 hrs/ month throughout. How does 130 hrs/ month come? I don't understand.
What is there not to understand ?
A month is not 4 weeks. 4 weeks is only 28 days. 130 = 30*52/12.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

miumiuuk
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by miumiuuk » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:25 pm

Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.

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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by Atif786 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:00 pm

miumiuuk wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:25 pm
Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.
I think you have a point , I have also worked out my employees full time and part time based on the same guidelines , it don't think so we need to confuse ourselves in weeks and hours calckurations ,
It's simple formula , any employee alone or combined worked for 120 hours in 1 calendar month should be considered as full time and max 130 hours to be considered for full time , anything on top of that is not counted .
In the application form at the bottom of the employment table it clearly says that we consider 120 hours as full time and 30 hours per week.
Other gurus problably have better understandings of the rules and will comment and suggest accordingly .
Atif

miumiuuk
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by miumiuuk » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:06 pm

sorry, this is the latest version April/2017, you can definitely use it.
Good luck.
:D

miumiuuk wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:25 pm
Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.

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marcnath
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by marcnath » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:19 pm

Definitely worth pursuing an AR on the basis of the guidelines. I do recall seeing 130 hours elsewhere (can't recall where now).

However, the immigration rules only specify 30 hours / week. (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... attributes)
49. A full time job is one involving at least 30 hours of work a week. Two or more part time jobs that add up to 30 hours a week will count as one full time job, and may score points in Tables 5 and 6, if both jobs exist for at least 12 months.

So, there is no mention of monthly hours in the immigration rules.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by CULLINAN » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:55 pm

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.

Please correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by Zimba » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:49 pm

I argues several times before that the 120 per month is incorrect assumption and guidance writers made a mistake.
There reason you CANNOT claim 120 hours per month is that each month is always more than 4 weeks and in order for a job to be FULL TIME it has to be at least 30 hours per week. This means that 120 hours per month is not enough for any job to be FULL TIME.
I repeat again under the law, ONLY hours worked per week determines whether a job is full time or not, not total monthly hours.
Advice is given based on my personal research and experience only. Do NOT contact me via private message for immigration advice

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marcnath
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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by marcnath » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:54 pm

tier11417 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:55 pm
You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.

Please correct me if i am wrong.
Yes, this is wrong !!!

Total hours is a wrong way of calculating.

As I quoted from the law, the only thing mentioned in the law is 30 hours / week.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extension Rejected Urgent Help Needed

Post by sm12 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:01 pm

marcnath wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:41 am
rahul190 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:22 am
Cashier as job title
Ok. So if you are post April 2014, it looks like HO is taking an unreasonable view on this. So, you need to be prepared for a possible rejection.

There must be some reason why you need two cashiers - is it because you need them for two different shifts or because your business volume is large enough to need two of them to handle it.

If it is the former, then the Job Titles can be Cashier-shift1 and Cashier-shift2. Otherwise Just Cashier1 and Cashier2.

While I think those rejections reported so far will get overturned in AR, if you want you can always do the correction above, update the Table 3B2 and send it in with a covering letter explaining that it is two separate jobs and the reason why.

Difficult to say if the two rejections were an exception or is a new HO approach - so up to you whether you want to do it or not.
This seems like the best option to make it clear that the two are different jobs (in the form).
I don't think the FPS asks for job titles? I definitely don't have job titles on mine.
Payslips sometimes do, but not always.

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Re: 1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

Post by Atif786 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:54 pm

zimba88 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:49 pm
I argues several times before that the 120 per month is incorrect assumption and guidance writers made a mistake.
There reason you CANNOT claim 120 hours per month is that each month is always more than 4 weeks and in order for a job to be FULL TIME it has to be at least 30 hours per week. This means that 120 hours per month is not enough for any job to be FULL TIME.
I repeat again under the law, ONLY hours worked per week determines whether a job is full time or not, not total monthly hours.
Hi Zimba88, in one the posts you said that 120 hours are accepted as full time, as i am relying on 120 hours as full time for creating 2 full time posts as in the application form i haven't combined the 2 part time posts to make it 1 full time because i thought 120 hours/ month are enough to count as full time so i din't bother to combine 2 part time to make it full time however both the employees have worked for more than 24 months with 21 months for 120 hours or more .
uk-tier-1-entrepreneur-visas/120-hours- ... 27963.html
zimba88 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:17 am
Rules view 30 hours a week as full time. The guide also says that 120 hours per month is acceptable too.
Also, stop creating several of thread for each question. You can ask all your questions in one thread :!:
Atif

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