Guernsey

[Ben]

The Channel Islands are neither part of the UK nor part of the EU. However, they have relationships with both, to an extent, so I understand.

Does anybody have any information on how, if at all, Guernsey has a relationship with the EU, with regards to Directive 2004/38/EC?

At the moment, I'm thinking that the Channel Islands have nothing to do with the Directive, since they're not a Member State of the Union, nor do they form part of the EEA. But then I found that Jersey permits any EEA national to be employed there, without a work permit.

Google hasn't found much.

[fysicus]

Both the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, etc) and the Isle of Man are out of scope of directive 2004/38. So this directive grants no rights to anybody who wants to travel to these islands, and also it grants no rights to residents of these islands who wish to travel to any EU/EEA country.

How this is effected in practice is a different question, given that they have a rather open border with the UK and don't issue their own passports, visas, etc. (at least as far as I know).

For example: if I want to visit the Isle of Man with my wife (who has an EEA2 Residence Card), I think she would technically need a visa but I have no idea where or how to apply for one, and I seriously doubt if it would be checked on a ferry from Liverpool...

[ca.funke]

...The Channel Islands...

Hi Ben,

I was actually wondering the same once, when we (German married to Lebanese) were planning to visit the IsleOfMan for a weekend from Dublin (with our 4EUFam card).

I rang some phone numbers in the IOM (which I googled at the time but cannot remember), and was independently told by several people that (only) a valid UK-visa is good for entry into the IOM.

This has somewhat unpredictable consequences:

1. Is it a "visa", if you legally enter the UK through EU-rules, but effectively do not have a "visa"-sticker?
2. The UK still continues to illegally disregard 2004/38/EC.
   • While the UK is bound by 2004/38/EC, the channel-islands are obviously not.
   • According to the EU you can legally enter the UK.
   • According to the UK you cannot.
   • Thus the question is what the channel-island authorities make of it:
     • If they think you can enter the UK legally, your presence in the channel-islands should be OK (see doubt 1).
     • If they agree with the UK's point of view, your presence should be illegal.
   • Thus, the main question is: Does the illegal ignorance of 2004/38/EC by the UK make it legal to ignore its consequences in the Channel-Islands, because they are not bound by it?

I'd also like to refer to the last point of my post >>here<<, which shows why I think you can legally enter the UK, even according to UK rules, although the embassy in Dublin keeps saying that this is not so.

This >>info<<, published by the homeoffice itself.

Before an Immigration Officer refuses admission to a non-EEA national under
Regulation 11(2) because s/he does not produce an EEA family permit, the IO must
give the non-EEA national reasonable opportunity to provide by other means proof
that he/she is a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that
national or join him/her in the UK.

From the latter my conclusion would be that it's OK to enter the UK, and thus also the channel islands.

Usually I'd like to stress how chaotic the whole "UK and Eire not entering Schengen" situation is, but since we now have our own Schengen-internal mess I'd better shut up

Happy Easter to you and your family

[Ben]

Thanks Christian!

I think a lot of the confusion arises on account of the Common Travel Area, made up of the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Though, of course, free movement among the CTA extends only to British / Irish citizens (though am currently in contact with the European Commission regarding the compatibility of this with Article 24 of Directive 2004/38/EC "equal treatment").

Back to Directive 2004/38/EC.. no, I think we can conclude that (as fysicus has said), neither the Isle of Man nor Guernsey nor Jersey are required to implement the Directive. Neither are part of the EU / EEA.

So, I think, if I (British Citizen) wanted to live and work in Guernsey - I think I could - but my Singapore Citizen wife would not be able to join me. Well, not in accordance with EU law anyway, but possibly Guernsey national regulations? Which mirror UK national regs?

[86ti]

For example: if I want to visit the Isle of Man with my wife (who has an EEA2 Residence Card), I think she would technically need a visa but I have no idea where or how to apply for one, and I seriously doubt if it would be checked on a ferry from Liverpool...

I once asked the Immigration Office of Guernsey directly:
"There is no immigration control between the United Kingdom and Channel Islands, and as such, a person who is legally resident in the United Kingdom is able to travel to Guernsey for tourism purposes without the need for any additional visa’s or immigration clearance. However, airlines operating into Guernsey do request photo identification for security purposes and I would recommend that you carry your passports with you when travelling."

[Ben]

I once asked the Immigration Office of Guernsey directly:
"There is no immigration control between the United Kingdom and Channel Islands, and as such, a person who is legally resident in the United Kingdom is able to travel to Guernsey for tourism purposes without the need for any additional visa’s or immigration clearance. However, airlines operating into Guernsey do request photo identification for security purposes and I would recommend that you carry your passports with you when travelling."

Interesting. So, it seems, Guernsey extends the provision of the CTA, which provides that British / Irish citizens may move among the CTA without the need to carry a passport, to third country nationals so they as they are legally present in the UK.

[ca.funke]

...I think a lot of the confusion arises on account of the Common Travel Area, made up of the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Though, of course, free movement among the CTA extends only to British / Irish citizens (though am currently in contact with the European Commission regarding the compatibility of this with Article 24 of Directive 2004/38/EC "equal treatment")...

We seem to think along the same lines.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 04:26
Subject: Complaint against the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom
To: EU Commission - Complaints <sg-plaintes@ec.europa.eu>


Dear Madam or Sir,

the UK and Ireland operate the so called "Common Travel Area", which is an agreement that (mainly) allows checkpoint-free travel between these two states.

The implications of this are explained on the following Irish government's website:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... and_the_UK

The following sentence can be found.

...The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries...

This is clearly a discrimination against all other EU-citizens, travelling on the same routes as Irish or UK citizens.

For the UK, the following link contains a leaftlet by relevant ministers:
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/jul ... onsult.pdf

Here, the following sentence can be found.

introduction of full immigration controls for non-CTA nationals of countries other than the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the Crown dependencies on all sea and air routes by 2014

new measures to verify the identities of UK, Irish and Crown dependency nationals on the same air and sea routes;

the UK will consider increasing ad hoc immigration checks on vehicles in order to target non-CTA nationals on the Northern Ireland side of the land border.

Movement without immigration controls for nationals of the CTA has been an important component of the special relationship which exists between the peoples of these islands, and provides long established political, economic and social benefits

...many more examples can be found in the text...

Please investigate weather such a discriminatory regulation against "non-CTA" EU-citizens can be valid within the EU.

Regards, Christian

[Ben]

We seem to think along the same lines.

I thought we realised that a long time ago, Christian?

Did you receive a reply to your communication yet? I haven't.

[ca.funke]

I thought we realised that a long time ago, Christian?

Of course, but I'm surprised that it extends to such remote thoughts...

Did you receive a reply to your communication yet? I haven't.

I wrote to an Institution of the European Union in October 2008. That's barely 6 months ago and the matter doesn't concern the degrees in which bananas bend, but essential basic rights which go to the core of the EU.

Had I already received a reply I'd be seriously shocked, as that would mean that EU-employees in Brussels actually think and work...

In short: Of course there was no reply yet.

[Ben]

You are funny, Christian.

Yes, they are taking their time, I must admit.

But when I wrote to the Commission in relation to two issues regarding the Irish Department of Justice* on 11/07/2008, a response was received on 29/07/2008. The DoJ implemented the change on or before 05/11/2008.

*1. Section 7(1)(a) of Ireland's Statutory Instrument 656 of 2006. The DoJ used to think that they had an entitlement to refuse to accept an application for a Residence Card if the applicant had been resident in Ireland for less than 3 months. They no longer perform this trick.

2. For the duration of the six month processing of the (accepted) application, the DoJ used to issue Stamp 3 to the applicant. They now issue Stamp 4, with six month's validity.

I'm happy with the above resolutions and the time to respond (the DoJ could have implemented quicker, but that's another story).