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Hello everyone, i am a non-EEA citizen and my wife is an EEA citizen, we live in Germany and i have a EEA Family Member Residence card issued under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC.

In this thread i would like to talk about Airlines and their treatment of people like me especially when i am traveling within the EU with my spouse.

Legally airlines are not allowed/responsible for checking your immigration status when you are using their services, but they do check all passengers for ID for security reasons. This is not a problem for EEA citizens, but if you are a non EEA citizen here is where the fun starts.

All airlines have Terms and Conditions, these are sets of rules that form the basis of their relationship with the passenger. Within these rules almost all airlines say that passengers are responsible for having the necessary travel documents and to comply with immigration rules of the countries they are traveling to.

Airlines fear huge fines for letting people without proper documentation on board the plane and feel that they have the right to refuse boarding if they are not sure about the right documentation type.

This is clearly illustrated in this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=91710

Problems arise when airlines try to check passengers for the right documentation, but are:

1. Not familiar will ALL TYPES of documentation under EU law, national law, etc...
2. Often are not able to tell which document is which simply because it is written in a language they do not speak

Here is a little story i have experienced recently:

My wife and i were traveling form Germany to Spain with Ryan Air.
Ryan Air has a policy that all non EEA passengers have to have their "Visa" checked before boarding. Since i have an EEA Family Member Residence Card issued by Germany and written in German:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/d ... rseite.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/d ... kseite.jpg

i had no trouble when flying out of Germany and we boarded the plane normally. We did have our marriage certificate and a copy of Directive 2004/38/EC in both languages with us just incase.

Two weeks later when we were returning form Spain back to Germany i had to do the same procedure. I went to a stand where 2 Spanish Ryan Air workers looked at my documents with a weird facial expression, but after a minute stamped my boarding pass OK FOR BOARDING.

As we were about to board, i was pulled aside by another Ryan Air employee that did not speak English or German and was told to show my "Visa". I tried to explain in Spanish that my document were already checked and showed a stamped boarding pass that has a Ryan Air seal on it and said Visa Check OK FOR BOARDING.

To which he replied NO, SHOW ME YOUR VISA. Since we were in line with many people behind us i did not wish to argue and showed my passport and Residence Card again.

The employee looked at it as if it was written in ancient Chinese letters for 5 MINUTES. After a while is asked him if he was looking for an expiration date, to which he nodded his head, so i showed how the magic numbers 2015. After which he was not very convinced, but i just grabbed the card out of his hand and we are allowed to board. WOW, but since traveling on a plane is a matter of luck, it seems, who knows what new adventures await us during the Christmas holidays when we are traveling the same route again.

It seems that airlines still live in the middle of the 20th century and are not familiar with the concept of residence cards and still look for a "VISA". They are also not familiar with the fact that you can rent a car in Poland and drive to Portugal without your documents being checked once.

Ahh..planes and airlines when will we be able to welcome you to the 21st century.

Please share your airline stories here and do tell if you have won any lawsuits under similar circumstances.

Thanks.

When travelling from/to the UK, you might understand why airlines are looking for a visa but for a travel within Schengen? There is no border control to pass when you land so why would Ryan air be concerned of having a "visa" ? No one would check their passengers when they land.

Jambo wrote:When travelling from/to the UK, you might understand why airlines are looking for a visa but for a travel within Schengen? There is no border control to pass when you land so why would Ryan air be considered of having a "visa" ? No one would check their passengers when they land.

Your guess is as good as mine. Yet they do that all the time, look i am not even complaining about the fact that they check, all i am saying is how could they possibly know what type of residence documentation i have, if they are not familiar with all kinds of residence permits/cards, etc... and the worst is that they do not even speak the language to know if i showed them a residence card or library card.

For some reason airlines take it upon themselves to enforce immigration rules on their passengers, who knows maybe airlines are good souls helping governments fight agains evil passengers.

At the end of the day it is us loosing money and being humiliated, not them.

guys we should stand for our right...


http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=91687

I would strongly suggest that you complain to the European Commission and also petition the European Parliament. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/11 ... fectively/

The EC may reject the complaint, but it is still worth doing to get the issue on the radar screens.

I doubt complaining to Rynair will ever bring anything.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I would strongly suggest that you complain to the European Commission and also petition the European Parliament. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/11 ... fectively/

The EC may reject the complaint, but it is still worth doing to get the issue on the radar screens.

I doubt complaining to Rynair will ever bring anything.

This is definitely something we are considering. The thing is that it is really becoming annoying. Larger airlines have almost no problems in that regard it is just low cost ones. I mean we fly all the time with Air Berlin, German wings, Lufthansa and never had any problems. But Ryan Air is something else, i am pretty sure that they are the only airline that has mandatory "Visa" checks for all non EEA passengers. This smells a lot like discrimination, none of the other airlines that i have mentioned have anything remotely similar.

This also depends on the country, in Spain where the majority of people do not speak foreign languages the procedure becomes a coin toss matter of luck. In Germany we never had any problems at all.

Look i am not upset that they check, it is only that they do not have the background information or knowledge of laws and regulation to perform the checks, it sort of reminds me of the CTA situation in the U.K. and Ireland. Citizens of both can travel to both countries without the need to carry a passport, but the border agents can only know that they are citizens if they show passports that they do not need to carry. Paradox.

docteurbenway wrote:But Ryan Air is something else

Ryanair is definitely "something else", in just about every possible way. This makes me smile and I agree!

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

docteurbenway wrote:But Ryan Air is something else

Ryanair is definitely "something else", in just about every possible way. This makes me smile and I agree!

A stunning shot of Biman's 773 taken at MAN by fellow Manchester Photography Group member Nik French.

here is another experience from me.. not with airlines but with border guards.

I am also married with EEA-citizen and holding EEA Resident card.
I went to Turkey via Munich and on return we missed our flight and had to stay overnight in Munich so we just wanted to try our chance to get in without Schengen visa

It was easy to get in actually just quickly check passport and few question then let us go but on our way to back from german border almost was going to mark my wife criminal record.
Border officer didn't EU Rules and she told me I entered germany illegally and she have mark my passport and told my wife she is going to mark my wife criminal record as well because she helped me. I tried to explain her situation but she didn't even have a clue what's going on and she call her supervisor then told i got some uk visas instead of saying i got EEA Resident card then her supervisor of course told her to mark my passport and told my wife she done a crime! We told her, we haven't done anything illegal and after discussing her colleague who knows EEA rules she let us go through. But it was really awful experience.

After i came to UK, i went to German Embassy to complain.. They were really helpful and accept my complain and also give me a letter which is explain rules for border guards just in case.

If airline staff check their computer or latest TIM manual for visa requirements.
This is what the Airline staff will see.

Visa required, except for A max. stay of 3 months for those,
irrespective of nationality, holding a Residence Permit issued
by Germany.

Use any of the links below, enter your details, such as Nationality
Please print and bring the result with you.

If you mention the word TIM manual or TIMATIC and get a blank
look, this means your dealing with someone who does not know airline
procedures.

A few links to the same Database, always the same information back
because it comes from IATA TIMATIC

http://www.gulfair.com/English/info/pre ... ation.aspx
and
http://www.delta.com/planning_reservati ... formation/
and
http://www.skyteam.com/en/your-trip/Ser ... nd-Health/
and
http://www.klm.com/travel/sg_en/prepare ... saform.htm
and
http://www.staralliance.com/en/services ... nd-health/
and
http://www.pro-linkglobal.com/timatic/w ... mainv.html
and
http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/travelinformation.php# (very bad interface, but more options)

===================================
Background on airline database

What is TimaticWeb?
TimaticWeb is a web-based service used to determine traveler border
control requirements. The service is based on Timatic and is used by the
entire aviation industry

IATA Timatic is the industry standard used by airlines and travel
agents to be compliant with border control rules and regulations.
Timatic delivers personalized information based on the passengers
destination, transit points, nationality, travel document, residence
country etc.

The Timatic Quick Reference Guide will assist you to make the correct
request for the specific information of every type of passenger.
Timatic can be used to provide passengers with this critical
information as part of the booking process, as well as during check-in

to ensure travelers have the correct travel documentation.
Some Airlines provide web-access to the Database, Its always the same
information because it comes from Industry IATA database called TIMATIC

http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/Pages/tim.aspx
http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/travelinformation.php#
http://www.timaticweb.com/

Excellent information and is very helpful, but I am not sure that Ryanair and others are actually members of IATA.

IATA is no bible either. It talks about max stay of 90 days, which implies a return ticket is required. That comes presumably from the three month's initial residence, which can be greater or lesser than 90 days depending on the time of year. As for PR card holders, they don't qualify according to Timatic because it doesn't mention the family member rider.

dasjoker wrote:After i came to UK, i went to German Embassy to complain.. They were really helpful and accept my complain and also give me a letter which is explain rules for border guards just in case.

Who did you manage to talk with at the German embassy? Was the letter specially done for you or was it a standard one?

This is an interesting case. Usually people at the embassy know a lot less about free movement than do the border guards.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

dasjoker wrote:After i came to UK, i went to German Embassy to complain.. They were really helpful and accept my complain and also give me a letter which is explain rules for border guards just in case.

Who did you manage to talk with at the German embassy? Was the letter specially done for you or was it a standard one?

This is an interesting case. Usually people at the embassy know a lot less about free movement than do the border guards.

I was talking with just normal embassy stuff. I don't know his role exactly. I applied visa and i went to pick up my passport.Then i explain what happened in Munich. I think this time i was lucky because embassy staff knew free movement then told me straight away. "Border guard was just bullshitting" he was really confident and then give me standard letter with free movement rules on it and told me to keep this letter with your passport all time just in case.

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: Excellent information and is very helpful, but I am not sure that Ryanair and others are actually members of IATA.

IATA is no bible either. It talks about max stay of 90 days, which implies a return ticket is required. That comes presumably from the three month's initial residence, which can be greater or lesser than 90 days depending on the time of year. As for PR card holders, they don't qualify according to Timatic because it doesn't mention the family member rider.

EDIT
checking http://www.iata.org/membership/Pages/ai ... _list.aspx

Ryanair are not a current member of IATA, but are former members
with IATA code FR

I can tell you for certain, when I fly KLM, its exactly what the staff
are reading when they poke around in their computer.
When I asked Ryanair, what they used, I got fobbed off that
I need to contact head office.

So I have no clue what Ryanair use.

yes, its not perfect, but its what most airlines use.
the information comes from National Authorities
and EU Commission.
For EU family members. The bible as such is
EU Directive 2004/38/EC

But it gives you an advantage, and will put the airline
staff on the back foot.

If you fly from UK to Spain, it will say

Visa required, except for A max. stay of 90 days, holders of a
"family member" residence permit issued by United Kingdom to a
family member of a national of an EEA Member State

guys here is letter, i got from embassy just in case if you need it

acme4242 wrote:

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: Excellent information and is very helpful, but I am not sure that Ryanair and others are actually members of IATA.

IATA is no bible either. It talks about max stay of 90 days, which implies a return ticket is required. That comes presumably from the three month's initial residence, which can be greater or lesser than 90 days depending on the time of year. As for PR card holders, they don't qualify according to Timatic because it doesn't mention the family member rider.

EDIT
checking http://www.iata.org/membership/Pages/ai ... _list.aspx

Ryanair are not a current member of IATA, but are former members
with IATA code FR

I can tell you for certain, when I fly KLM, its exactly what the staff
are reading when they poke around in their computer.
When I asked Ryanair, what they used, I got fobbed off that
I need to contact head office.

So I have no clue what Ryanair use.

yes, its not perfect, but its what most airlines use.
the information comes from National Authorities
and EU Commission.
For EU family members. The bible as such is
EU Directive 2004/38/EC

But it gives you an advantage, and will put the airline
staff on the back foot.

If you fly from UK to Spain, it will say

Visa required, except for A max. stay of 90 days, holders of a
"family member" residence permit issued by United Kingdom to a
family member of a national of an EEA Member State

I've been on the receiving end of airlines not understanding what a visa looks like several times (not within Europe). I've been polite, argued my case, kept smiling and was eventually let board. Governments have made airlines afraid.

dasjoker,

How did you get this letter? Were there a pile of them in the embassy? Did they write it for you specifically in response to a conversation you had with them? Did they offer it or did you ask for it?

It is lovely to see that the embassy itself understands this!

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:dasjoker,

How did you get this letter? Were there a pile of them in the embassy? Did they write it for you specifically in response to a conversation you had with them? Did they offer it or did you ask for it?

It is lovely to see that the embassy itself understands this!

as told you guys, when i went to pick up my passport there was a really confident guy and he was cool so i told him what happened in Munich and he straight away said "no no, she was bullshitting you guys" and straightaway gave me this letter. it was already printed before, i guess they must be a lot of those letter just in case

as you told it's really nice to see embassy itself understand this or maybe i was lucky to have this guys who knew EU/Directives.

Guys I have wrote a letter to Jet2 indicating the rule where you don't need a visa if you are travelling with or travelling to join your EU/EEA member.
I will update you with answer.

Ta

docteurbenway wrote:...since traveling on a plane is a matter of luck...

Sounds familiar.

My suggestion for a way out would be this:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 859#584859

But I guess it´ll remain a dream...