Moving back to Ireland with Australian girlfriend.

[MartinSydney]

Hi guys, I hope this is the right place to post this.

I'm Northern Irish and have both a British and an Irish passport. My girlfriend is Australian. We'll have been living together for 2 years in Sydney in August, having applied for a partner visa here in May 2013 (it hasn't come through yet).

We want to move to Dublin towards the end of this year/start of next year but I'm a little confused about the best way to go about it. It seems natural that I would apply with an Irish passport, but I've seen other posts here talking about the treaty rights you get under a British passport?

I don't want to mess up by declaring a nationality that might hunder my application, and I was wondering if anyone could offer me any advice? I've also seen conflicting advice on the difficulty of getting a de facto visa - is it going to be a problem that we aren't married? We have tons of household bills, shared bank accounts, emails, etc from the past two years. We're also planning on moving with around EUR 16,000 savings between us.

Also, if we applied for the visa now, and got it be December, could we fly to Northern Ireland at Christmas and then move to Dublin in January - does she have to specifically enter direct from Australia or anything?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate, and be eternally grateful for, any help or advice whatsoever. Thank you SO much in advance for reading this, and for any advice you guys can offer - I've been poring over government guidelines all day and really want to hear from a human!

[chaoclive]

Be careful. If you're applying to move to Ireland, you should use your British passport and see to exercise treaty rights in Dublin (e.g. by working/being self-employed etc) under Directive 2004/38/EC.

REMEMBER: if you are working in a country of which you have citizenship, you won't be able to 'exercise treaty rights', i.e. you shouldn't be able to exercise treaty rights in Ireland. However, the Irish immigration authorities might not ask so it's a case of don't ask, don't tell. Not sure how it would pan out.

Many people from Northern Ireland can't benefit under the Directive as many of us (myself included) have 2 citizenships. The UK specifically ask if you hold British citizenship...so it's not as easy to fool them.

First thing to do would be to have a read through this: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF (Then you will understand the Directive a bit better).

Then, see this: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU ... y%20Rights (from the Irish immigration authorities)

Don't forget you can apply for an Irish national visa for your spouse: further details are available here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Family%2 ... cument.pdf

[MartinSydney]

Thanks so much for the informed reply chaoclive.

The ironic thing is that London was our first choice but the financial/job-based requirements they levy are ridiculously and unfairly tough; hence, deciding on Dublin instead - only to find it might be better to apply with a British passport. Does that mean exercising treat rights is a matter of both of us arriving, and then applying immediately for her to stay? In that case, is it clear-cut, or is there a chance they could refuse? And would I need to have a job (I work freelance at the moment)?

I have two citizenships - so in this case I wouldn't be able to benefit from the Directive?

Given the length of time we have (almost 9 months until we arrive in Ireland) would it not be more straight-forward to simply apply for a de facto from here in Australia? The government website seems pretty clear here:

For immigration purposes a person may be considered the De Facto Partner, opposite or same sex, of another person if:

they have a mutual commitment to a shared life to the exclusion of all others akin to a marriage or civil partnership in practice though not in law
and
the relationship between them is genuine and continuing
and
they live together or do not live separately and apart on a permanent basis
and
they are not related by family

This type of immigration permission is for people who have an Irish citizen or Irish resident life partner (the Sponsor) and would like to live with them in Ireland. The permission is conditional on the relationship i.e. if the relationship ends the permission ends.

Wouldn't it be easier to just go down this route, or is there a better reason for the treat route, in your opinion?


Thanks again, we really, REALLY appreciate your advice and time!!

[chaoclive]

I'm not sure about how long Ireland would 'require' you to be together in order to benefit from the de facto partner route. Under EU law, you need to be together for 2 years before you can be viewed as an unmarried couple. If you were married this wouldn't be an issue. You might want to think about this first?

I'm not sure what type of permission you would be applying for if you used the de facto partner route. I'm a little more familiar with the EEA route.

It's not quite as clear cut as you mention but it's along those lines. See this post: http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=804420. Please note that they are talking about 'Surinder Singh' (which does not apply to you: you can search in Google if you want to find out what it is), but you can just imagine that you are in the same boat with regards to settling down in Ireland on your British passport with your non-EEA spouse. I'm not really sure how difficult it would be but I don't think the visa would be rejected as long as you didn't mention your British citizenship.

In theory, you can't benefit from the Directive as you have both citizenships...however, people have told me that it never seems to come up in Ireland. It definitely wouldn't work in the UK as some of the forms (e.g. when applying for a residence card) ask. If you were scared of getting caught you'd better think of another way.

I am in the process of renouncing my British citizenship so I can bring my partner back to Belfast with me in the summer time. I took this decision because I also had both citizenship and wanted to move back to Belfast to be with my family.

I'd advise you to consider the following:
-Would you be prepared to get married? It would make the European route much easier.
-What about working in another E/EA country first, e.g. Germany/Spain etc. and then applying to move back to Ireland with your girlfriend (wife would be better)? This is what is known as Surinder Singh.

[MartinSydney]

Hey, thanks again for taking the time to reply.

I'm not sure about how long Ireland would 'require' you to be together in order to benefit from the de facto partner route. Under EU law, you need to be together for 2 years before you can be viewed as an unmarried couple.

We will have been together for 2 years in August, before we apply. The immigration website says: "cohabitation for at least two years."

I'm not sure what type of permission you would be applying for if you used the de facto partner route. I'm a little more familiar with the EEA route.

We'd be going for this one:
"Sponsor - Irish National
If the Sponsor is an Irish National a successful Applicant may be granted one year on Stamp 4. This stamp 4 exempts the Applicant from the need to have an Employment Permit or Business Permission."

It's not quite as clear cut as you mention but it's along those lines. See this post: http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=804420. Please note that they are talking about 'Surinder Singh' (which does not apply to you: you can search in Google if you want to find out what it is), but you can just imagine that you are in the same boat with regards to settling down in Ireland on your British passport with your non-EEA spouse. I'm not really sure how difficult it would be but I don't think the visa would be rejected as long as you didn't mention your British citizenship.

I'd advise you to consider the following:
-Would you be prepared to get married? It would make the European route much easier.
-What about working in another E/EA country first, e.g. Germany/Spain etc. and then applying to move back to Ireland with your girlfriend (wife would be better)? This is what is known as Surinder Singh.

It seems much more straightforward just going for the de facto on my Irish passport, given that it will allow both of us to settle and work in Dublin? Unless I'm missing something?

Thanks again!

[chaoclive]

Hi, the EEA route will allow you to settle in Ireland on your British passport and she will also be able to work. You need to remember that if you are caught by the Irish immigration authorities (because you have Irish citizenship), you might have a bit of trouble!

However, you could consider renouncing Irish citizenship (which can be got back) and then you wouldn't have anything to worry about.

As long as both the UK and Ireland are in the EU/EEA, there shouldn't be an issue with the EEA route. If that was to change, the spouse of an Irish national route would be best.

If you have specific questions, please ask. You should also go and read about the McCarthy ruling (about dual citizenship under the EEA route).

[MartinSydney]

Thanks again for all the info, chaoclive. I think we'll go the partner visa route - I don't want to renounce my Irish citizenship and it seems like the most straightforward route. Appreciate the advice.

[jasmin kool]

Hi I am new user I don't know is it the right place for post but I want to know something if anybody can help me please. I have a family member of eu citizen residence card issued in portugal with my british wife. I had read that I can travel to ireland with out visa because of my eu family member residence card.i want to know that I want to settle in Ireland with my british wife what I will have to do next after ariving in ireland.dose I need to apply for stamp 4 eufam or my family member of eu citizen residence card which is issued in portugal will be valid there.please I will be thank full to you if anybody reply me .