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UK citizen married to non EU member

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juju1979
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UK citizen married to non EU member

Post by juju1979 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:50 pm

Hey all,

I was looking for some advise !! I would like to move home to Scotland...with my husband (Morocco) we have been married 2 years and I am pregnant with our first child as I would like to have our child in Scotland I would like to move home...but when we went to apply the visa office told me that they would not grant my husband a visa ....since then I have heard about my EU treaty rights????? If its correct I can apply for a visa under EU laws rather than British ones??? Also I heard of a case the Surinder Singh ...???

If any one has any information that can help me I would really appreciate it!

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:02 pm

Your location says Rome, so I'm assuming you and your husband are residing together in Italy?

If you have been working in Italy (exercising a treaty right) and can prove that you have resided together in an EU member state (Italy) then yes i think you could have your husband apply for an EEA Family Permit. He would need to supply proof of relationship (marriage certificate), proof of you exercising a treaty right in Italy (like payslips, letter from employer if you are working) and proof of his legal residence in Italy.

Out of curiosity, why did the Embassy tell you they would not grant him a visa? Had you made an application or were you making general enquiries there?

juju1979
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Location: Scotland

Post by juju1979 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:29 pm

We had collected all supporting documents, which consisted of marriage certificate, passports and permesso di soggiorno of myself and my husband.
Also as we were not paying for the trip, which we had told the agency and they advised us on which supporting documents that we would need would be an invitation from my mother, and all of her documents like:- copy of her passport and also payslips and bank statements and so that is what we had done and I was able to go to the Embassy with all the documents that we had and gathered.

as my husband has lived here for 10 years. he has passed the Immigration in Italy, he has residency here with me and has also paid the government taxes while working here.

I hope something makes sense here, if there is anything else you could help me with would be very helpful.

As we may not make it to Scotland for the birth of our first child, I would really like to go home with my husband and our Daugther in the new year.

VictoriaS
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Post by VictoriaS » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:44 am

This sounds like utter nonsense. You don't need to prove financial support for an EEA application.

Did you make the application and get a refusal? Or did they just advise you not to apply?

You refer to an 'agency'. Does this mean you went through an agency to make the application, and they told you you wouldn't get it?

Victoria
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mym
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Post by mym » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:31 am

juju1979 wrote:We had collected all supporting documents, which consisted of marriage certificate, passports and permesso di soggiorno of myself and my husband.
You are clearly a "Surinder Singh" case and should get a free EEA Family Permit with no trouble at all. No need for a (bloody expensive) UK Visa at all.

Have a read of http://tinyurl.com/2a949o

Also see http://tinyurl.com/2djz33 which is the Diplomatic Service Procedures - Entry clearance handbook for ECOs when they make decisions.


21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases

The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law. (For example a British national and his non-EEA national spouse/children who have lived in Germany and exercised an economic treaty right and are now returning to the UK).

The Surinder Singh judgement is now incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9.

It is confined to those cases where a British national has exercised an economic Treaty right and the Non-EEA national family member can demonstrate their lawful residence in a member state. (see section 21.4.1 on applications made from another Member State for more information on lawful residence requirements).

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/she could come back to the UK with his/her family members under EC law.

The non-EEA spouse will be eligible for entry into the UK under the Surinder Singh ruling provided that the marriage is valid and that the couple are not formally divorced. This applies even in cases where the non-EEA national spouse has not lived with the British national for the whole period during which Treaty rights were exercised. You may, however, find along with other evidence that this leads you to believe it to be a marriage of convenience.

Evidence that the couple have lived together may include:

* a registration certificate/residence card issued by the Member State;
* tenancy agreements; or,
* joint bank statements.
Last edited by mym on Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:31 am

What is the actual reason for refusal? You haven't made this very clear to us...
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

juju1979
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Post by juju1979 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:24 pm

Ok so here goes just to clear everything up!

I have lived in Italy for 7 years, my Husband and I have been married just over 2! Here has a valid permit of stay in Italy as he has been living here 10 years!

When we decided to move back to Scotland ....I went to the British embassy in Rome were I was told that they no longer deal with visa applications that I had to go through agencies that have been set up for this purpose!

Basically I could hardly get into the embassy without an appointment!

So both my husband and I collected all the documents that where required of us and brought them to the agency which the embassy told us about! Which is basically a middle man for the embassy when dealing with visas!

There we left all our documents and then had an interview with an British lady who then passed us on to a scottish lady who told me she was the visa issuing officer and that reading our file she would not grant him a visa

So technically we were not refused but just told politely that if we applied we would not get it!
We were told he could not even get a visitors visa as his income here did not meet the requirements basically that he might stay in Britain!

juju1979
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Location: Scotland

Post by juju1979 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:27 pm

PS

thank you all for the help just these few replies has been more than I got from the embassy!

VictoriaS
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Post by VictoriaS » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:53 pm

It sounds to me that you have been considered under the UK rules instead of the EU rules. Obviously if you apply under UK rules you need to show funds, but they are wrong if they say you need this for the EEA application.


Victoria
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limey
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Post by limey » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:04 pm

JuJu: I think maybe you need to state on the form or using a cover-letter that you are applying for an EEA Family Permit for your spouse, and that you want it processed using the "Surinder Singh" case to prove you legal right to do that. ie. because you have lived together in another EU country.

SYH
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Post by SYH » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:13 pm

What I don't get is that if he has been in Italy for 10 years, is he not already a permanent resident and can he not use that basis to move elsewhere including the UK

John
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Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:38 pm

It sounds to me that you have been considered under the UK rules instead of the EU rules.
Just picking up on that, juju1979, do you remember which application form was used, the VAF1 or the VAF2? And was an application fee paid to the embassy, or was the application free?

Also juju1979, in what way have YOU been exercising your EU Treaty Rights in Italy? Have you been employed? Or self-employed? If not, what have you been doing?
John

juju1979
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Post by juju1979 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:48 am

Ok my husband has been here for 10 years but Italy just changed there Laws which means that you can apply for citizenship after 5 consecutive years!

My husband has had breaks during his stay here i.e when her was renewning his permit of stay he was technically without documents but had the right to stay while they where processing then!

Also yes I have been working the past 7 years here!!! I have always had a job...so I think that Iam exercising my treaty rights!

John
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Post by John » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:32 am

Hi, could you answer :-
Just picking up on that, juju1979, do you remember which application form was used, the VAF1 or the VAF2? And was an application fee paid to the embassy, or was the application free?
John

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:48 am

juju1979 wrote:Ok my husband has been here for 10 years but Italy just changed there Laws which means that you can apply for citizenship after 5 consecutive years!

My husband has had breaks during his stay here i.e when her was renewning his permit of stay he was technically without documents but had the right to stay while they where processing then!

Also yes I have been working the past 7 years here!!! I have always had a job...so I think that Iam exercising my treaty rights!
Would the easiest option then not be for your husband to become an Italian citizen if he is eligible?
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

juju1979
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Location: Scotland

Post by juju1979 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:05 pm

Ok to answer your questions.....

John,
I used the VAF1 but not under European law as I knew nothing about this until a friend mentioned it.....and we would have had to pay a fee but as I said the Visa issuing officers recommended we not apply as she was sure he would not be granted a visa! Now I thought I would get myself better informed so the next time I have to meet with them I will have all the facts !

Dawie,
He can not become a Italian citizen as he has not paid enough taxes....you have to have paid a certain amount over all the time you have been here and he has had breaks of his permit to stay! Also the Italian limmigration here is terrible my husband was waiting for a year for his new permit of stay and then was granted a 6 month one....now thank god he has a 2 year one!

mym
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Post by mym » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:16 pm

The form you'd use under UK immigration law would be the VAF2, with your husband applying as a spouse of a UK citizen - the application fee is 500 quid.

But DON'T, apply under the Surinder Singh case mentioned above.

They MUST issue the permit promptly and for free.

Don't take any shit from ignorant pen-pushers at the embassy, this is your legal right as a citizen of the European Union.

Tell them to go and read their own handbook and procedures, and demand to see the ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) if you get any obstruction from the ECO.

Also read this, it is the relevant part of the guidance issued to the entry clearance officers:


21.4 - The EEA family permit

An EEA family permit is a document similar to an entry clearance which has been given the name "EEA family permit" to distinguish it from a visa or entry clearance issued under the Immigration Rules. Instead, EEA family permits are issued under the Regulations.

Regulation 12 of the EEA Regulations requires non-EEA family members of EEA nationals to hold family permits if they are a visa / non-visa national and they are coming to the UK with the EEA national or to join the EEA national who is already in the UK.

Non-EEA family members of EEA nationals must get an EEA family permit before they travel to the UK if they are visa nationals, or if they are intending to live with the EEA national permanently or on a long-term basis. If they attempt to enter the UK for this purpose without an EEA family permit, we may refuse them.

However, if they have a valid UK residence card they do not have to obtain a family permit each time they leave or enter the UK.

If the family member is travelling independently of the EEA national and will not be joining the EEA national in the UK they will need to satisfy the normal entry clearance requirements for third country nationals under the Immigration Rules. For example, the Indian wife of a French national travelling to the United Kingdom for a shopping trip while the French national stayed behind will require a visa. If she was travelling with her husband, or to join her husband who had travelled ahead of her, she will require an EEA family permit.

Please note, if a family member who is travelling with, or is to join the EEA national in the UK requests a visit visa, you should offer him (or her) the option of applying for a family permit under EC law or a visa under the Immigration Rules.


21.4.1 - Handling and assessing applications for EEA family permits

Under EC law, priority must be given to applications for family permits. Wherever possible a decision should be made at the time it is lodged or after the interview is conducted. Applicants for EEA family permits should not be put into a settlement queue and an interview should be conducted as soon as possible. However, there is no requirement in the Regulations to say that EEA Family Permits must be issued on the day the application is made. Where doubts exist (for example whether applicants are related as claimed) further enquiries may be made, but these should also be given priority.

If the application is made from an EEA Member State:

* Following the case of Akrich, which established that a right of movement for a family member is only derived if they are lawfully resident in an EEA member state, the requirement for an applicant to demonstrate lawful residence has been introduced into the EEA Regulations. Anyone who has a valid visa or entry clearance, and who is abiding by the conditions of that entry clearance, can be considered to be lawfully resident in that Member State. This would normally be in the form of the local equivalent of leave to enter / remain as a family member of a national of the member state in which they are residing. Or, alternatively, an EEA residence card would normally be held if they are the family members of an EEA national residing in a member state of which they are not a national.
* The non-EEA national could equally have entered the country in some other category (visitor, student etc) and would still be considered as lawfully resident in that Member State. For example, an Indian national married to a French national, who had obtained a visa to enter France as either the spouse of the French national or in some other category (as a visitor, student or work permit holder etc), would be considered 'lawfully resident' in France, if, at the time of application, they were abiding fully by the conditions of that visa.
* Those with valid Schengen visas would be considered lawfully resident in all Schengen states. If there are cases where you are not sure if an applicant can be considered as lawfully resident, please refer the details to ECO Support.
* Evidence of an outstanding application to reside in the member state in question should not be considered as sufficient evidence of lawful residence, and the applicant should be advised to await the outcome of their application before seeking a family permit. This does not apply to those that have entered the country legally and are now applying for a residence card. It only applies to those that have entered the country, for example as asylum seekers, and still have their claim being processed. An asylum seeker who has been given temporary leave to remain in another member state whilst their asylum claim is considered would not qualify as lawfully resident for the purposes of issuing an EEA family permit.

If the application is made from outside the EEA: If the applicant cannot demonstrate lawful residence in an EEA Member State, which includes those applying from outside the EEA, they would also be expected to meet the relevant requirements in the Immigration Rules for leave to enter the UK as the family member of an EEA national. If they satisfied the Rules, they would still be issued with an EEA Family Permit.

In assessing an application, you should be satisfied that:

* the applicant is related as claimed to the EEA principal,
* any children over the age of 21 and other family members (other than the EEA principal's spouse and children under 21) are wholly or mainly financially dependent on the EEA principal or satisfy one of the other conditions for extended family members (see Annex 21.1). The children of any age of a student should always be dependent,

In the case of "extended" family members you should consider dependence to be:
+ financial, or
+ 'living under the same roof' - to mean a period of at least six months in the country of origin, and
+ the particular facts of the case merit issuing a family permit. See Annex 21.1 for a definition of extended family members as well as more information.
In addition, that:
+ the EEA principal is intending to travel to the UK with the applicant within 6 months of the date of the application and there is evidence that the EEA national will, on arrival, be residing in the UK in accordance with the Regulations, or the applicant intends to travel to join the EEA national who is already residing in the UK in accordance with the Regulations. Provided his/her stay in the UK does not exceed three months, an EEA national is not required to exercise a Treaty right (for example, by working). An EEA national who will be in the UK for more than three months will have a right of residence for as long as he/she remains a qualified person (see Regulation 6).

A qualified person is an EEA national who is in the UK exercising a Treaty right. This must be one of the following:

* a jobseeker
* a worker,
* a self-employed person,
* a self-sufficient person,
* a student, or
* a worker or self-employed person in the UK who has ceased activity. (For example a worker who has ceased working due to permanent incapacity or someone taking early retirement.)
* a person on benefits can, in some cases be a qualified person - please see Paragraph 21.4.3 for further details.

If the EEA national has been residing in the UK for more than three months or intends to travel to the UK for longer than that period, you are entitled to ask questions in order to establish whether the EEA national will be a qualified person (although they are under no obligation to inform British authorities about how long they will stay initially).

This may include proof of:

* actual employment or self employment on arrival in the UK, or
* that he/she is a student, retired person or tourist with sufficient funds to allow him/her to support themselves and their family members in the UK (for the duration of their stay) without becoming a burden on public funds, or
* evidence that the EEA national has a good chance of gaining employment in the UK.

Alternatively, where the EEA national is already in the UK, evidence that:

* the EEA principal is installed in the UK and is economically active or is exercising some other form of Treaty right.

See Annex 21.2 for examples of questions and evidence that may be asked for.

In addition to these, you should be satisfied that neither the applicant nor the EEA principal should be excluded from the UK on public policy, public security or public health grounds.




21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases

The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law. (For example a British national and his non-EEA national spouse/children who have lived in Germany and exercised an economic treaty right and are now returning to the UK).

The Surinder Singh judgement is now incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9.

It is confined to those cases where a British national has exercised an economic Treaty right and the Non-EEA national family member can demonstrate their lawful residence in a member state. (see section 21.4.1 on applications made from another Member State for more information on lawful residence requirements).

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/she could come back to the UK with his/her family members under EC law.

The non-EEA spouse will be eligible for entry into the UK under the Surinder Singh ruling provided that the marriage is valid and that the couple are not formally divorced. This applies even in cases where the non-EEA national spouse has not lived with the British national for the whole period during which Treaty rights were exercised. You may, however, find along with other evidence that this leads you to believe it to be a marriage of convenience.

Evidence that the couple have lived together may include:

* a registration certificate/residence card issued by the Member State;
* tenancy agreements; or,
* joint bank statements.

You should seek advice from ECO Support where you are unsure about the decision to be taken in applying the Surinder Singh judgement.#


21.4.10 Charging fees

No charge should be made for any application for an EEA family permit made by a non-EEA national family member of an EEA national or by the family member of a British national, where the British national is exercising an economic Treaty right in an EEA state or Switzerland. Visa applications by non-EEA national family members of EEA nationals attract the usual fee for the category in which they are applying.


21.4.14 Issue of a family permit

The applicant should be issued a Category D Vignette. There are two types of endorsement on a family permit. This will be either:

EEA FAMILY PERMIT: TO JOIN/ACC SPOUSE/CP

or

EEA FAMILY PERMIT: TO JOIN/ACC RELATIVE

An EEA family permit should be made valid for 6 months from the date of issue.

You should explain to the permit holder that:

* the permit will indicate to the Immigration Officer the status of the holder as a family member of a person exercising Treaty Rights
* the Immigration Officer retains the right to refuse entry to a permit holder:
o if the revocation is justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health; or
o the person is not at that time the family member of a qualified person.

21.4.15 After entry

You should also explain that after entry to the UK the holder could apply to the Home Office for a residence card.

The possession of a valid residence card (presently a Home Office endorsement in the holder’s passport) will enable the holder to re-enter the UK without the need for an EEA family permit. This is providing he/she continues to qualify as a family member of an EEA national (as defined in Regulations 7, 8, 9 and 10), and is subject to the normal derogations of public policy, public security and public health.

Please note, registration certificates and residence cards are not currently required in the UK in order to be considered legally resident. (EEA nationals and their family members may choose to apply for this documentation as confirmation of their right of residence).
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SYH
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Post by SYH » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:48 pm

juju1979 wrote:Ok my husband has been here for 10 years but Italy just changed there Laws which means that you can apply for citizenship after 5 consecutive years!

My husband has had breaks during his stay here i.e when her was renewning his permit of stay he was technically without documents but had the right to stay while they where processing then!

Also yes I have been working the past 7 years here!!! I have always had a job...so I think that Iam exercising my treaty rights!
So far the breaks sound like it was on the govt not him.
Normally when you are renewing your status is tolled until a new decision is made, that doesn't mean there are gaps in his residency. I would double check everything about him becoming a permenent resident. I can appreciate the govt not being helpful but the devil is in the detail.. Please double check it.

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