Visitor visa application refused

[ninlover]

Hi everyone, I need some help and advice to assist my daughters boyfriend who is Turkish, to appeal / gain a visitors visa, recently refused, on the grounds that he was seeking to visit the UK in their high season (he works as a waiter in a hotel for six months, and works unpaid on his families farm for the rest of the time) so that he can get to meet all of our family. My daughter paid for the professional services that the UKBA advise you to use, to ensure that all the paperwork was correctly submitted, with all of the I's dotted and the T's crossed, but they rejected his Visitor visa request, on the basis that they don't understand why he would want to visit her during their high tourist season, and because he failed to offer any evidence of payment during the six months he is not working at the hotel. Since he works for his family for free (receiving only pocket money for his labours during this period), and nothing in any of the documents required him to supply such information (since we are acting as his sponsors and they only requested information about what he actually earns), they rejected his application on the basis that he was likely to be coming here to work illegally, and had no intention of returning back to Turkey. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I need your help on how to get this refusal changed. Can he appeal this decision, and if so how? Can we do anything this end to assist him? What steps need to be taken to ensure that they do not continue to reject his visitors visa request. My daughter is heartbroken and inconsolable at this moment in time, and as her father, I am outraged that a genuine application has been dismissed so summarily, without so much as a by your leave. The notion that he is seeking to gain entrance to work here illegally is completely spurious and I cannot believe that such a patronising refusal was sent to him, as his Visa application was rejected on the hint of suspicion formed in the mind of an idiot who clearly cannot appreciate that two young people might be in love, and are wanting to spend some time together. Many thanks in advance for any support and advice you can give to us.

[Wanderer]

You can only appeal on Human Rights or Discrimination grounds and in any case, an appeal would take many months...

Best to re-apply and address the points raised by the ECO in the refusal. I'm afraid the UKBA view people visiting here without own funds and without reason to return in a dim light, right or wrong, but not without reason, it's a path that's been abused in the past.

Also did you mention your daughters relationship? In the light of the above, that would count against, UK has no 'boyfriend visa' and the ECO may be surmising (unfairly, obviously) that he intends to settle.

The key is 'reason to return' and if there aren't any, the UKVI are quite within their legal right to refuse the application.

[ninlover]

Hi Wanderer, many thanks for responding to my post. Why can't we appeal on the basis of article 84(1)(a) (a)that the decision is not in accordance with immigration rules; or 84(1)(f)that the person taking the decision should have exercised differently a discretion conferred by immigration rules; The reason why I ask is that in his application, he made it explicitly clear (over and above what I would deem as reasonable intent) that he had every intention of returning, due to his extended families needs,(he works on his parents farm, assisting them to make ends meet) when he is not working as a waiter in the hotel and, that his application in the high season was as a result of my daughters work patterns. She had holiday time due to her, and they wanted to spend it together in the UK, to provide him with the opportunity for him to get to know his potential in laws, (That's us) since they clearly are besotted with each other and they both have our full blessing we also wanted to invite him to share in some of our family events. Moreover, in accordance with his culture, he has to ask for my permission in person, as well as to ask her brothers for their permission to marry before they can formally get engaged. I respect this, and my whole family support their relationship. My daughter is a qualified social worker, as is one of her brothers, whilst her mother is an educational welfare officer and I am a specialist computer consultant as well as a level four foster carer. We acted as his sponsor, paid for the professional services advised by the UKBA, and he passed the initial interview in his locality, before all the required paperwork was submitted to Istanbul. They are the ones who then vetted his application, and subsequently denied his visa. In my opinion, they could have requested him to attend an interview if they had any additional queries, but didn't do so, thereby undermining the due diligence we paid for and expected to receive. We also provided documentary testimony from our end as his sponsor, that we would ensure that he was picked up, and then returned to the airport safely, obviating any concern about him overstaying, or indeed having any opportunity to undermine the purpose of the Visa application. None of us wish to undermine their chances of being granted the opportunity to marry or for them to dwell in either country, so we have done everything we can to ensure that his application was processed properly. All the required documentation was provided, and all the I's were dotted and the T's crossed. All of us earn far above the financial threshold and provided the necessary financial details of our willingness to fund this trip and just like my daughter, I was flabbergasted by this refusal. Love knows no boundaries, and when two people meet and fall in love, then love must have its way. He is a person whom I am happy to entrust my daughters future well-being and happiness to, and my whole family are supportive of their future plans. It simply took one failure of duty of care, one Turkish ECO of limited ability to undermine all of their plans, and one appalling decision based upon an unfounded suspicion, (despite all of the contrary documentary evidence) to bring the best laid plans of mice and men crashing to the ground. Could you advise me on the points I have made, since I do believe that there is a case to be made, yet I feel so dis-empowered by what has taken place. Many thanks

[MPH80]

This is *really* hard to read.

Can you please re-post using paragraphs.

[ninlover]

As requested, information now spaced to make it easier to read.

Hi Wanderer, many thanks for responding to my post. Why can't we appeal on the basis of article 84(1)(a) (a)that the decision is not in accordance with immigration rules; or 84(1)(f)that the person taking the decision should have exercised differently a discretion conferred by immigration rules;

The reason why I ask is that in his application, he made it explicitly clear (over and above what I would deem as reasonable intent) that he had every intention of returning, due to his extended families needs,(he works on his parents farm, assisting them to make ends meet) when he is not working as a waiter in the hotel and, that his application in the high season was as a result of my daughters work patterns. She had holiday time due to her, and they wanted to spend it together in the UK, to provide him with the opportunity for him to get to know his potential in laws, (That's us) since they clearly are besotted with each other and they both have our full blessing we also wanted to invite him to share in some of our family events. Moreover, in accordance with his culture, he has to ask for my permission in person, as well as to ask her brothers for their permission to marry before they can formally get engaged. I respect this, and my whole family support their relationship.

My daughter is a qualified social worker, as is one of her brothers, whilst her mother is an educational welfare officer and I am a specialist computer consultant as well as a level four foster carer. We acted as his sponsor, paid for the professional services advised by the UKBA, and he passed the initial interview in his locality, before all the required paperwork was submitted to Istanbul. They are the ones who then vetted his application, and subsequently denied his visa.

In my opinion, they could have requested him to attend an interview if they had any additional queries, but didn't do so, thereby undermining the due diligence we paid for and expected to receive. We also provided documentary testimony from our end as his sponsor, that we would ensure that he was picked up, and then returned to the airport safely, obviating any concern about him overstaying, or indeed having any opportunity to undermine the purpose of the Visa application.

None of us wish to undermine their chances of being granted the opportunity to marry or for them to dwell in either country, so we have done everything we can to ensure that his application was processed properly. All the required documentation was provided, and all the I's were dotted and the T's crossed. All of us earn far above the financial threshold and provided the necessary financial details of our willingness to fund this trip and, just like my daughter, I was flabbergasted by this refusal. Love knows no boundaries, and when two people meet and fall in love, then love must have its way. He is a person whom I am happy to entrust my daughters future well-being and happiness to, and my whole family are supportive of their future plans.

It simply took one failure of duty of care, one Turkish ECO of limited ability to undermine all of their plans, and one appalling decision based upon an unfounded suspicion, (despite all of the contrary documentary evidence) to bring the best laid plans of mice and men crashing to the ground. Could you advise me on the points I have made, since I do believe that there is a case to be made, yet I feel so dis-empowered by what has taken place. Many thanks... I hope that this satisfies you MPH80

[MPH80]

Thank you - much easier to interpret.

The short answer to your 'why not' question is that section 90 of the act prevents it.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/41/section/90

The issue at hand is less about your credibility as sponsors - but about his credibility as a tourist.

He works in a hotel for 6 months of the year ... he's leaving during the high season (when he should be working) ... to see his girlfriend - who he wants to be with ... but promises to return to work on his parents farm (honest!). Even though - he's going to see his girlfriend and her whole family ... and meet everyone ... and probably ask for her hand in marriage.

I'd be thinking 'hmmm' too on that version of the facts.

I will also note that there isn't a simple financial threshold for a visitor visa as there is with a spouse or a fiancee visa - it's all based on whether there's enough money to sponsor the trip and whether the ECO believes he will return at the end of it. The only facts the ECO's are really interested in are the people who are sponsoring the trip and the applicant. So your son and his job (for example) is of no concern to UKBA.

There is no legal recourse against a sponsor if the person they sponsor 'disappears' - so it'd be entirely possible for families to sponsor (financially) all sorts of relatives over and have them disappear into the system if the applicant's situation wasn't looked at on application.

I am not doubting the veracity of your claims at all - but what you have to appreciate is that there are a large number of young ladies who do go to Turkey and are duped by men there wishing to simply get a tourist visa (and sometimes even the spouse visas). So UKBA are going to, very much, be on their guard.

So - what he has to do if he really wants to get over this is:

1) Provide the evidence requested - e.g. how does he get by in the remaining 6 months of the year
2) Provide more evidence of reasons to return - property, investments etc.

You should also consider that a visitor visa may be a lost cause if further evidence can't be provided - so you should also think about alternatives:

1) You need to go and meet him in Turkey - if he's planning to ask for her hand in marriage and it must be done in person
2) Get them engaged now - and bring him on the more expensive fiancee visa (which requires evidence of preparation to marry within 6 months).
3) Consider having them marry in Turkey and come on the spouse visa.

Love knows no boundaries, and when two people meet and fall in love, then love must have its way.

I'm afraid UKBA - and indeed the law - do not see it this way. There is no 'boyfriend' visa. Nor is there any guarantee of being able to live in the UK with your spouse. The article 8 right to a family doesn't say where you have that right to a family.

What he must NOT do now is break any immigration rules. No deception - no overstaying - no 'bit of work on the side while he's here'. Spouse and fiancee visas do not attract the same bans as normal visas (e.g. a simple overstay isn't a problem) - but they are still subject to discretionary refusals for immigration abusers (so overstaying AND working might cause problems).

The way to deal with ANY application is to think like this:
"If I assert something, I will prove it."

If you say 'I earn x' - put the payslips in. If you say 'I live here' - submit the council tax bill. If you say 'Our house has 4 bedrooms' - get a surveyors report (normally not necessary for a tourist I might add). And in this case "I have to go back to work on my parent's farm" - well - put evidence that a) they own a farm, b) he works there and c) he's necessary.

[Wanderer]

This ^

Well put and clear as usual by MPH80, unlike my stream-of-consciousness babbling!

[ninlover]

Thank you for your response and advice MPH80.

I did suggest to my daughter, ahead of his application that we should seek to go down a different route, i.e., apply for a visa on the grounds that they wished to get married, but she rejected this because he wanted to meet me in person to ask for my daughters hand, and the Visa costs about £600, which he has stated to her that he must pay. Without my blessing he cannot get engaged to her according to his customs. I have yet to get my head around why it has to be at his expense, but I can assure you of this single fact. Since my daughter has been involved with him, and she has made a number of trips out to Turkey to be with him, he has not allowed her to pay for a single thing once she has arrived.

Far from seeking to exploit their relationship, he is so devoted to her that he will not allow her to go Dutch, or pay a single Turkish lire for anything when she is there. He has not been your typical media stereotype of a conniving Turk seeking to exploit foolish western women, he really is the genuine article. On her last visit she was introduced to his family and they made her feel like she was visiting royalty. The lengths his family went to make her visit so extraordinary, (despite their meagre financial resources) meant that she came back home to England and started planning and preparing for the opportunity to respond in kind.

It was at my daughters request that he sought permission from his work to take an absence of leave during their tourist high season. It was at my daughters request that her boyfriend made an application for a visitors holiday visa, and it was at my daughters request that he gave up the opportunity to earn enough money to support his extended family during the low season, money that they could all benefit from and desperately need, but on the other hand he had his families blessing to to so, as they really adore my daughter. However, our new system of intolerance has meant that despite a plethora of evidence to the contrary, his holiday visa application to visit our home has been rejected, leaving both of them in a situation of total misery.

I have offered to fund a new application and he has refused my offer, once again evidencing the fact that he is not seeking to exploit my daughter financially, but proving that he is sincere about the cultural norms that he has been raised under and accepts as his responsibility. I admire and value his sincerity in respect of this matter, and I have no wish to undermine his decision, as that would be discourteous, although we are more than happy to pay for a fresh visa application knowing how little the family have to live on and the expense that they will incur as a result.

Because of all of the above, I was wondering if there was any way to get his application reviewed, without making a formal appeal or having to make a fresh visa application?

[Wanderer]

Like I said you can only appeal on grounds of contrary to HRA or discrimination. Plus appeals take forever in general and did for visit visas when you could appeal. Might be worth a call or letter to the Chief ECO in Istanbul, that sort of thing used to work in the past but things are much tighter now.

Like MPH80 said, best to just reapply with the refusal points addressed, it's the only way forward unless you go the fiancé/spouse route. The only things relevant to the application are the facts, I'm afraid the authorities aren't interested in thoroughly nice chaps or declarations of love, their duty is to protect our borders in the face or past abuse of the system, when we started on this route for my partner (we did it the long/hard way, don't ask!) the whole process was free, now we've paid just shy of £2,000 in the last year for visas and permits, so I think it's unfair to blame the UKVI and the immigration rules, they've tightened because of abuse....

Anyway, look to the future, reapply as above, make the application is cast iron and there will be no refusal.

[MPH80]

Wanderer has laid the situation out well.

But - the thing you have to do is come at this with a sceptical mind to understand the ECO side of things. You know these two people. The ECO does not. The ECO has to make a judgement on how truthful all parties are being. They can do that with interviews - but they mainly do it using the paper evidence in front of them.

Paper evidence doesn't show love. It doesn't show passion. It doesn't show honour.

Keep in mind the number of applicants who will say ANYTHING to come to the UK and the number of people here who are willing to say the same to help them. Heck - recently we even had the vicar arrested on the false marriage scam. A vicar! Working to arrange false marriages! These guys are supposed to be the pillars of the community.

I'm not saying your daughter and this guy are involved in anything wrong.

I'm just pointing out the scale of abuse that has taken place and this taints the UKVI thinking. They come at it from the point of view that says "You're not coming in until you prove to me you can".

So reapply - take a sceptical and a 'I will prove it' approach as I outlined above and there shouldn't be a problem.

[Lornaa2014]

I am in a similar situation. I am actually married to a man from Egypt and we were just refused a family visitor visa on the grounds that the ECO did not believe he had strong enough ties to his home country. He has worked in the same job since 2006 and we showed evidence of that (the ECO actually acknowledged that they believed everything we claimed to be true) but it still wasn't good enough...they said that he did not show any social or economic ties apart from his job. We've come to the conclusion that applying for a visitor visa is a lost cause to be honest...once you admit to them that the applicant has a wife/girlfriend etc in the UK they will just assume that they will overstay. They've put us in a really difficult position because we have no further evidence to show to them-we gave evidence of his job, but he has no other economic ties in Egypt and I am sure that the social ties to his mom and sisters won't be enough to usurp the fact that he has a wife in the UK.

Cut your losses and just think more long term-we've decided to just work towards applying for a spouse visa now.

L

[Lornaa2014]

Like I said you can only appeal on grounds of contrary to HRA or discrimination. Plus appeals take forever in general and did for visit visas when you could appeal. Might be worth a call or letter to the Chief ECO in Istanbul, that sort of thing used to work in the past but things are much tighter now.

Like MPH80 said, best to just reapply with the refusal points addressed, it's the only way forward unless you go the fiancé/spouse route. The only things relevant to the application are the facts, I'm afraid the authorities aren't interested in thoroughly nice chaps or declarations of love, their duty is to protect our borders in the face or past abuse of the system, when we started on this route for my partner (we did it the long/hard way, don't ask!) the whole process was free, now we've paid just shy of £2,000 in the last year for visas and permits, so I think it's unfair to blame the UKVI and the immigration rules, they've tightened because of abuse....

Anyway, look to the future, reapply as above, make the application is cast iron and there will be no refusal.

The ECO refused my husband's visitor visa application on the fact that he did not show any economic or social ties to his country apart from his job (which he has worked in since 2006!) What further evidence can we provide? He has no other economic ties and while he does have family (his mom and sisters) will this really be enough to convince them, especially as he lives away from his family for 3 weeks in the month?

I honestly believe that if your partner or spouse is from what they consider a "high risk" country, then you have no chance in hell of getting a (family) visitor visa.

[ninlover]

We did, and we thought we had, in fact he was interviewed in person at Izmir, and passed that with flying colours, so we expected that since they had been satisfied with all the documentary evidence, as well as the replies he gave in person, and he passed all of their other tests for entry, plus, at this end, the Visa specialist online tracking was giving everything a green light, we expected the paperwork to be sent through to Istanbul and for his holiday visa to be granted. Perhaps my daughter jumped the gun at this stage, but she went ahead and booked the flights on the basis that the ECO at Izmir ( a British and not a Turkish ECO by the way) was completely satisfied with everything about his Visa application and told him so, indicating to him that there would not be any problems.

So I ask you what more could have been done, and why if there was a problem or concern, didn't the ECO at Istanbul request him to attend an interview there? A internal flight from Izmir to Istanbul only costs £30, and he would have happily attended such an interview if they had requested one. They didn't, and here is the reason why I am so aggrieved about the process. Refusing his application is unjust, as a result of all the steps that have been taken to ensure its success. The fact that some Turkish ECO employed by the UKBA can't get their head around something, when the British ECO at Izmir had already verified all of his paperwork and satisfied themselves that his application was genuine, leaves me wondering what sort of idiots are they employing as ECO's in Istanbul?

Does anyone know the name of the senior ECO in Istanbul, or supply me with an address, or how I might go about contacting them?

[MPH80]

You REALLY need to stop looking to overturn the decision and just reapply.

Firstly - the initial conversation and check on documents does nothing more than check the documents are present. They take them, in some places photocopy and return, and in others just send them on to the actual ECOs.

Secondly - Any interview that takes place that early in the process won't be any more than 'when are you going', 'who are you going to see'. It won't be a detailed interview into the applicant's background. Nor are they likely to conduct such an interview for a tourist visa.

Thirdly - The fact you paid an advisor who 'greenlighted' the documents doesn't guarantee anything. I could review your documents and say 'hey - looks good'. Doesn't mean the ECO will see things the same way.

Fourth - a tourist visa is all of £80. In terms of the amount of effort the Home Office are going to put in for that - it's not going to be much.

Fifth - Any refusal has to be reviewed by a manager. So this isn't a simply 'no' - it's 'no - and I checked with my boss'.

Now - you could have him (and it has to be him) write to the post (the address will be on his refusal letter) and request a review by a senior manager. It is not an appeal - you cannot present any new evidence - you cannot make new statements - it's just 'please look again'. It is also worth noting that we've had stories here of posts being so backed up that they've had a response stating the ECM review won't happen for 4-5 months, whether that's the case in Turkey or not I don't know.

The easiest and most simple solution is to reapply.

M.

[ninlover]

Thanks for the info, MPH80 and we do intend to follow it, I simply wanted to make sure that I had covered all of the angles for my daughters sake, therefore I have copied and pasted all of your advice and forwarded it to her in an e-mail. Rest assured, we will be following it to the letter, but I am personally disconcerted about just how little the UK Government and the UKBA provide by way of support and advice, and this is a matter I intend to take up with the Home Secretary, Theresa May. Sometimes, it is not a matter of what you know, but who you know, and if you don't know them personally, who do you know that does. I have a number of influential friends, and we have been discussing this matter amongst ourselves.

Look forward to a petition on Change.org, and please encourage as many as you can to sign it when I post it. I am very unhappy about the way things stand, and I think the UK government could be doing an awful lot more to provide appropriate support and advice for Visa applicants. I found their support and advice confusing and almost useless, and I am sure others have experienced the same. Fortunately I discovered this forum, which has been very helpful indeed. So many thanks to all the people who set it up and now monitor the forum.

My thanks on behalf of my daughter Elleannorre and her boyfriend Ilkem, since I have found your advice to be invaluable. As things stand, Ellie will now visit him in September, and by then we hope to have his new application approved, so perhaps and God willing, they both might be able to to enter the UK as an affianced couple. Many thanks once again to everyone for your support and assistance and I will keep you updated as to their progress.

[chynah]

Hi Ninlover,

I am actually in a very similar situation at the moment as I have just received news that my boyfriend from the Dominican Republic has been refused a visitors visa. I am 22 years old and I am extremely upset that this has happened! He works from Monday - Friday in a university teaching English, earns nearly £600 a month and owns his own jeep yet his visa was refused on the grounds that ' they were not satisfied that he would not over stay'.

In the cover letter we detailed that he works everyday for 11 months a year and only gets 1 month off in December ( which was when he intended to visit) therefore he would have to return for work but they were not satisfied.

I understand that many say that we should reapply and yes I would like to but I would also like to fight this as I believe that this is completely unfair and that the rejected was unwarranted.

I would genuinely like some advice of how to do this. Please advise.

Thankyou

[vinny]

See also Visitor Guidance.

[Casa]

This thread is 4 years old and member ninlover hasn't visited the forum since Jul 21, 2014.

Read the guidance in Vinny's link.