General Visitor Refusal for Wife

[Holliday]

Quick summary:

Wife is Russian living in Montenegro, I'm British and in the UK.

I've visited her several times in Montenegro. She's visited here 3 times, on 2 separate visas with no issue.

A few months a go she applied for Joining Family visa, this was refused due to lack of evidence and me not earning enough as a sponsor.

She recently applied for a General Visa and explained on the application that I was in the process of looking for additional work to meet the requirements for Family Visa for future application and obviously in the meantime this is the only way she can visit me.

We just got a refusal letter:

“I note that you were refused entry clearance to the UK n order to permanently settle with your spouse on 30/03/2015. You have now stated that you wish to visit your spouse in the United Kingdom for the period 21/06/2015 – 19/07 (end date not specified). You have previously sought entry to the UK in order to settle on a permanent basis. You have provided no information to demonstrate why you no longer with to settle in the UK or to show that your circumstances have changed in any way. In light of this, I am not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor or that you intend to leave the UK at the end of your visit.”

Other than not putting a year on her chosen return date, I can't see what other issue there is (unless this is the issue). I can't think of any other possible 'evidence' that we can provide to prove she'll return, I would have thought her returning 3 times previously on the dates she said she would, would have sufficed.

So are we now screwed in terms of her visiting me, due to previously applying for a settlement visa? I'm having to find a second job to reach the required £18,600 sponsor income, so my ability to visit her and get time off from both jobs would prove even more difficult.

Is there any point of appealing on human rights grounds? Or possibly make another application? I can't think of what evidence we could provide which would 'prove' that she will return when she says she will.

Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.

[Casa]

Unfortunately once you've had a settlement visa application refused it's extremely difficult to succeed with a visitor visa application. The intention to settle flags up on the UKVI system.

[Holliday]

Unfortunately once you've had a settlement visa application refused it's extremely difficult to succeed with a visitor visa application. The intention to settle flags up on the UKVI system.

So the only realistic option would be to carry on looking to meet the sponsor income target and re-apply for Joining Family visa? And if so, will this current rejection be counted against the decision when we do eventually re-apply?

Cheers for the reply, I appreciate it.

[Casa]

The visitor visa refusal won't affect future applications for settlement.

[Holliday]

The visitor visa refusal won't affect future applications for settlement.

Well that's some good news at least.

And when you say a Visitor Visa option now would be extremely difficult, difficult as in no longer worth pursuing?

Having 5 weeks holiday from work a year, thus 5 weeks max of visiting my wife is quite a daunting thought.

Again thank you for your replies, they're very helpful.

[Casa]

To be honest, I wouldn't have any confidence in another visitor visa application succeeding.

[Holliday]

To be honest, I wouldn't have any confidence in another visitor visa application succeeding.

Certainly shot ourselves in the foot applying unprepared for the Settlement Visa then.

Thanks for your honesty and information.

[Casa]

Have you considered taking the Surinder Singh route to settlement? It would mean you locating to another EU state for a few months and taking employment there before moving back to the UK together under EEA regulations. i.e no need to meet the £18,600 minimum earnings level.
https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh

[Holliday]

Have you considered taking the Surinder Singh route to settlement? It would mean you locating to another EU state for a few months and taking employment there before moving back to the UK together under EEA regulations. i.e no need to meet the £18,600 minimum earnings level.
https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh

This is the first time I've heard of this route.

It also states living together in the EEA country for the time, which would mean being Russian she'd need a residence permit for that country would it not?

[Casa]

Yes, but as your wife she would have the right to join you there while you're 'exercising your treaty rights'.

[Holliday]

Yes, but as your wife she would have the right to join you there while you're 'exercising your treaty rights'.

Apologies for all the questions, I'm trying to research into it now, and you've been more than helpful.

If she did join me would she also be eligible to work, or would my employment there be the only allowed income?

[Casa]

She would be allowed to work. Most importantly, before you return to settle under this route, make sure you are able to show employment in the EU state, rental agreement etc...any evidence that you integrated into the local life there. When you later apply for an EU permit for your wife to enter and settle in the UK with you, there won't be any UK visa fees or minimum income requirement and your wife won't have to pass the A1 English test. The route to permanent settlement under the Surinder Singh route is 5 years, the same length of time as entering as a spouse under UK Rules.

[Holliday]

She would be allowed to work. Most importantly, before you return to settle under this route, make sure you are able to show employment in the EU state, rental agreement etc...any evidence that you integrated into the local life there. When you later apply for an EU permit for your wife to enter and settle in the UK with you, there won't be any UK visa fees or minimum income requirement and your wife won't have to pass the A1 English test. The route to permanent settlement under the Surinder Singh route is 5 years, the same length of time as entering as a spouse under UK Rules.

Having now researched this and spoke to my Wife, this route seems like the perfect one to pursue. And as much information there is, we feel we don't want to do it ourselves, so is the forum allowed suggest any companies who would help step-by-step with the process?

[Wanderer]

Doubt there are any, you just go and do it yourself, Ireland prolly best since no language issue though jobs not easy to find. Feeling is now it's a 12 month plan, since the UK gov. require you to shift your centre of life, i.e. do it properly not just to get round the tougher UK rules.

Also its fair to warn that UK gov. eyes are on this route and things may change for the worse.

[Holliday]

Doubt there are any, you just go and do it yourself, Ireland prolly best since no language issue though jobs not easy to find. Feeling is now it's a 12 month plan, since the UK gov. require you to shift your centre of life, i.e. do it properly not just to get round the tougher UK rules.

Also its fair to warn that UK gov. eyes are on this route and things may change for the worse.

From my research I gathered 3 months was the minimum time now.

And surely if it's an EU rule then UK.gov can't do much about it? Which I gather is what this EU Referendum vote is all about, not sure what the time scale for any changes which might occur after that would be.

[Wanderer]

Doubt there are any, you just go and do it yourself, Ireland prolly best since no language issue though jobs not easy to find. Feeling is now it's a 12 month plan, since the UK gov. require you to shift your centre of life, i.e. do it properly not just to get round the tougher UK rules.

Also its fair to warn that UK gov. eyes are on this route and things may change for the worse.

From my research I gathered 3 months was the minimum time now.

And surely if it's an EU rule then UK.gov can't do much about it? Which I gather is what this EU Referendum vote is all about, not sure what the time scale for any changes which might occur after that would be.

Some have done it with three months but not recently I'd wager. You;d have to show a proper (six month min) lease or mortgage deed, an employment contract, things that show your commitment to your new life in the EU state, and possible that you've sold up at home etc, I don't know. Just don't assume its easy, UKVI are on this one make no mistake.

Thing is there is no defined rule, this directive was intended for those genuinely unable to use UK rules (because they live in another EU state) or cannot use local rules (because they are not local citizens) - it's was not intended that people would use it this way, basically to avoid the UK fees and/or overcome situations where UK rules cannot be fulfilled. UKVI now insist of a shift of ones 'centre of life' in order to attempt to return the directive to its original purpose.

I'm the forum doom merchant anyway, so feel free to cheer me up!

[Holliday]

Some have done it with three months but not recently I'd wager. You;d have to show a proper (six month min) lease or mortgage deed, an employment contract, things that show your commitment to your new life in the EU state, and possible that you've sold up at home etc, I don't know. Just don't assume its easy, UKVI are on this one make no mistake.

Thing is there is no defined rule, this directive was intended for those genuinely unable to use UK rules (because they live in another EU state) or cannot use local rules (because they are not local citizens) - it's was not intended that people would use it this way, basically to avoid the UK fees and/or overcome situations where UK rules cannot be fulfilled. UKVI now insist of a shift of ones 'centre of life' in order to attempt to return the directive to its original purpose.

I'm the forum doom merchant anyway, so feel free to cheer me up!

I think visa issues make any one a doom merchant, the minute you think you have it sussed a little rule just pops up and takes it away.

I understand it won't be easy, particularly finding work. We don't mind 'making it a centre of your life' either as long as we can be together. I do worry though that after 6 months or so the UK would somehow bypass this EU law and make the whole process a waste of time and resources.

[manci]

Returning to your original question about your wife's visitor visa refusal, does she have a job or other ties to Montenegro which would indicate the likelihood of her returning there after the UK visit? If so, was this information provided in her original visa application? Was she given the right to appeal the refusal (which would have to be exercised within 28 days of the date of the refusal)?

Under the circumstances, as Casa said, the chances of an appeal or re-application succeeding may not be high, on the other hand it couldn't be excluded.

[Holliday]

Returning to your original question about your wife's visitor visa refusal, does she have a job or other ties to Montenegro which would indicate the likelihood of her returning there after the UK visit? If so, was this information provided in her original visa application? Was she given the right to appeal the refusal (which would have to be exercised within 28 days of the date of the refusal)?

Under the circumstances, as Casa said, the chances of an appeal or re-application succeeding may not be high, on the other hand it couldn't be excluded.

She has a job but can work remotely so not really tied to an office as such. She also rents in Montenegro. And no, there wasn't any mention or papers included which stated she could appeal.

[manci]

Returning to your original question about your wife's visitor visa refusal, does she have a job or other ties to Montenegro which would indicate the likelihood of her returning there after the UK visit? If so, was this information provided in her original visa application? Was she given the right to appeal the refusal (which would have to be exercised within 28 days of the date of the refusal)?

Under the circumstances, as Casa said, the chances of an appeal or re-application succeeding may not be high, on the other hand it couldn't be excluded.

She has a job but can work remotely so not really tied to an office as such. She also rents in Montenegro. And no, there wasn't any mention or papers included which stated she could appeal.

whatever is or isn't in the refusal letter there is a possibility of appealing on Article 8 (human rights) grounds. See:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/visit-v ... al-review/

If after lodging a human rights appeal the HO considers that the appeal has a good chance of being allowed by the tribunal they may in fact withdraw the refusal decision.

Another way may be to re-apply and make the human rights case in the re-application (this is likely to be the cheapest and quickest).

[Holliday]

whatever is or isn't in the refusal letter there is a possibility of appealing on Article 8 (human rights) grounds. See:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/visit-v ... al-review/

If after lodging a human rights appeal the HO considers that the appeal has a good chance of being allowed by the tribunal they may in fact withdraw the refusal decision.

Another way may be to re-apply and make the human rights case in the re-application (this is likely to be the cheapest and quickest).

It seems I may have secured a second job, which should bring my combined income to over the £18.6k. Obviously there's still the 6 months I have to be with the new employer before we try again for the Settlement Visa, but this seems like a simpler route than SS.

But in the meantime, if we did try and reapply for a General Visa making a human rights case, would me gaining this employment help as evidence? It would make visiting my wife more difficult due to trying to match holidays at both jobs, and if it comes down to it I hope us not seeing each other in 6 months would count against us for a 'genuine' relationship requirement when it comes to a Settlement Visa.

I realise no one can give a definite yes or no apart from the Visa Officer, but even my wife applying for a General Visa means she has to fly to another country as the UK Immigration Center is 'temporarily' closed in Montenegro. So I'm just wondering if it's a realistic option for now.

[vinny]

See also Family visit appeal fails on human rights ground.

[manci]

@vinny
the case referred to in the Freemovement link is: http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/IAC/2015/261.html
It concerns an application by an adult to visit her father and step-family in the UK. The case was appealed to the UTT by the HO because the FTT judge made his decision based on the immigration rules rather than Art 8.and this was held to be wrong.

In Holliday's case the relationship is that of husband and wife which is much stronger. In the judgment there is a quote from another judgment:
In practical terms this [Art 8 claims] is likely to be limited to cases where the relationship is that of husband and wife or other close life partners or a parent and minor child...
This is also confirmed by the HO guidance to ECOs on how to deal with human rights in visitor visa applications, link below.

@Holliday
The visit visa fee is only £85 and according to the UKVI website the VAC is open in Podgorica albeit only Thursday and Friday mornings. Applications can be lodged there even though if she had to attend an interview that could be elsewhere. If she decides to re-apply it would be advisable to have assistance in formulating the human rights claim. Your efforts to achieve the financial threshold for a spouse visa by taking a second job can also be referred to demonstrating your wish to abide by the rules and the difficulty of you visiting your wife in Montenegro. Even though her job is not tied to an office it is still relevant and payslips and employment contract should be submitted with a re-application. Visit visa refusals will have no bearing on your wife's eventual application for a settlement visa.
Read also:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_ext.pdf

[Holliday]

@Holliday
The visit visa fee is only £85 and according to the UKVI website the VAC is open in Podgorica albeit only Thursday and Friday mornings. Applications can be lodged there even though if she had to attend an interview that could be elsewhere. If she decides to re-apply it would be advisable to have assistance in formulating the human rights claim. Your efforts to achieve the financial threshold for a spouse visa by taking a second job can also be referred to demonstrating your wish to abide by the rules and the difficulty of you visiting your wife in Montenegro. Even though her job is not tied to an office it is still relevant and payslips and employment contract should be submitted with a re-application. Visit visa refusals will have no bearing on your wife's eventual application for a settlement visa.
Read also:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_ext.pdf

The Visa Centre is still closed "With the temporary closure of the Visa Application Centre in Podgorica, UKVI and their commercial partner Teleperformance have put in place alternative measures for people in Montenegro wishing to apply for UK Visas. Customers who have not yet made an application/appointment in Podgorica can make their application in Belgrade, Sarajevo or Tirana, but should apply as if resident is Albania, Serbia or Bosnia and Herzegovina on visa4uk website."

I realise this thread is all over the place but my circumstances and options have changed a lot these past few days. I'm currently only earning £11,500 p/a (terrible I know) but a family member has offered to gift me £30k. Once this is in my account, and I add my own savings to hit £33,750. Am I correct in thinking after 6 months from this point I'd meet the Sponsor Financial Requirements? I just don't want to be missing any obvious problems.

[manci]

I realise this thread is all over the place but my circumstances and options have changed a lot these past few days. I'm currently only earning £11,500 p/a (terrible I know) but a family member has offered to gift me £30k. Once this is in my account, and I add my own savings to hit £33,750. Am I correct in thinking after 6 months from this point I'd meet the Sponsor Financial Requirements? I just don't want to be missing any obvious problems.

Your calculation is correct but read Appendices FM and FM-SE for the detailed requirements. Note that your wife's savings can also be taken into account. If you decided to rely on savings rather than take a second job then you may find it easier to visit her in Montenegro, however, IMHO a visit visa re-application on human rights grounds succeeding is not beyond the realms of possibility. Btw - Tirana is a 3 hour bus ride from Podgorica.