Biometric Residence Permit req't? (+ Transfer of Conditions)

[chickpea]

I've not seen much discussion about this topic on the family members board here, so I'm going to post my experience in hopes others will see it and find it helpful, but also I'm asking a question or two about it.

My original spouse visa was granted in February 2014. (At the time this board/community was exceedingly helpful, thanks again!) I had found a job starting the next month at a prestigious university and they only needed my passport and visa as proof of right to work. Months later my (US) passport expired (November 2014) and I applied for and received a new passport without leaving the UK. At the time I researched whether the visa would be transferred or what other steps I needed to do in case of a problem having a visa in an expired passport using it alongside a fresh passport. As far as my research online and by phone with the agency that handles UKBA calls, I did not need to do anything other than carry both passports, and my employer only wanted to see the new passport.

Yesterday I started a new job with a new university and this morning they told me that I had incorrect documentation! (Although they knew it was their fault for not noticing when I produced proof of right to work at the interview.) It turns out that I need to do a Transfer of Conditions (TOC) and get a Biometric Residence Permit (BRP). To the best of my knowledge after researching this further, it appears this is a new requirement possibly since April 2015.

Much research in these forums came up with very little, hence my questions follow and below that my experience with the followup:

1. When did the UKBA (or UKVI) implement this rule about having a BRP? Was the rule about TOC at the same time?

2. Even though I try to stay on top of the rules, how are we meant to know when there is no legal requirement I can find to be reading them? (Is there a reason the UKVI etc cannot sent out updates or at least have a service to subscribe to email updates? It may exist but I haven't found it yet!)

I have read the very good pinned post on top of this forum which has a small note in the list of updates from April 2015, which initially appears to apply to Pakistan but on complete reading seems to apply to all, but doesn't give many details (and only on BRP not TOC). I have always made every effort to abide by the rules and do everything legally but I feel very caught out!

My experience:
1. I had actually just been out of the country for 10 days and have discovered now that had I known I needed to do the transfer I *could have* done so in the USA for £122.
2. The UKVI officer at the border on re-entry did NOT tell me I needed a BRP. They seemed unconcerned about the two passports. They did, however, ask me if I had a BRP. I said no and that was all.
2. The TOC/BRP application fee is £183.
3. The TOC and BRP apparently go together, and from what I can tell may take months by postal application.
4. You can make an appointment in person at one of several UKVI centres but the fee for this is an extra £400. (I had to do this and most appointments were 3 weeks out, though I finally found one in Sheffield on the 17th, a 3 hour drive for me.)

I wonder if it is worth the moderators adding a sticky/pinned post at the top of this forum to tell people they should apply for the BRP?! I sure wish I had known, I had loads of time to have applied. (Though I really wish I could have done it cheaper in the US, live and learn...)

Any similar experience is of interest, and answers to the above questions would be great! Please please do not treat me as clueless about this rule, as I have said I have made every attempt reasonable attempt to keep on top of things, and have a friend in the same situation so we share information, yet still wasn't aware of the changes.

Thanks.

[chickpea]

Just to clarify two things:

* It's my first post because we forgot our login details from 19 months ago!

* I thought it worth posting the text of the info in the sticky post on top of the forum. I think it needs clarification, because I was never issued with a sticker or told to do anything about obtaining a BRP. I have highlighted the part that sounds like it should apply to me but apparently did not (on re-entry to UK).

"Starting from 06 April 2015 in Pakistan, for those entering the UK for more than 6 months, you will be granted a 30-day vignette (sticker) in your passport and you will be issued with a BRP that must be collected within ten days of your arrival in the UK. The pilot in Pakistan will be quickly extended on the 14 April 2015, the 31 May 2015 and by 31 July 2015 all persons entering the UK from non-EEA countries will have to follow the new BRP process."

[chickpea]

You will need to wait like every one else. It will be delivered probably in the next week or so. Your visa was only approved a week ago. There is a system available for your new employers to check your right to work and as a Tier 2 sponsor, they should be aware of this.

Reading these posts with interest. I too am an academic. I have a spouse visa and documented right to work. However, I'm changing jobs and started a new one yesterday. The new employer claims they MUST have the BRP. I had never heard of it because it did not exist when I obtained my visa and nothing like it was required when I last checked on requirements (looking toward next LTR in another year) last November. Nothing has been said to me when coming or going from the UK either. Nothing I can find on the gov.uk website or the information on UKBA etc says that I must have this. I'm happy to do it, but they pressured me into applying in person so I'm out £583 plus the BRP may not arrive before teaching starts.

As far as I can see as long as I have proof of my right to work (I went through the steps on the website https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work ) and I can show my visa and a P45 or similar with my name and national insurance number then I should be fine.

So I guess my question is slightly different, but I'll be attending an appointment at Sheffield too and I think my employer is in the wrong to insist I have a BRP before I commence work.

Any knowledge on this welcome.

[vparikh]

You will need to wait like every one else. It will be delivered probably in the next week or so. Your visa was only approved a week ago. There is a system available for your new employers to check your right to work and as a Tier 2 sponsor, they should be aware of this.

Reading these posts with interest. I too am an academic. I have a spouse visa and documented right to work. However, I'm changing jobs and started a new one yesterday. The new employer claims they MUST have the BRP. I had never heard of it because it did not exist when I obtained my visa and nothing like it was required when I last checked on requirements (looking toward next LTR in another year) last November. Nothing has been said to me when coming or going from the UK either. Nothing I can find on the gov.uk website or the information on UKBA etc says that I must have this. I'm happy to do it, but they pressured me into applying in person so I'm out £583 plus the BRP may not arrive before teaching starts.

As far as I can see as long as I have proof of my right to work (I went through the steps on the website https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work ) and I can show my visa and a P45 or similar with my name and national insurance number then I should be fine.

So I guess my question is slightly different, but I'll be attending an appointment at Sheffield too and I think my employer is in the wrong to insist I have a BRP before I commence work.

Any knowledge on this welcome.

Hi Chickpea,
I am not quite an expert on this area, but BRPs are 'new vignettes' which are not labelled in the passport (stickers) nowadays but are like credit cards given separately. Whether you require one or not might depend on when you first entered in the UK and under what route. As far as I know, everyone who applies under any route, will be given a BRP. But I'd let the 'experts' speak here. Might be worth starting a new topic querying about this, as your query in this post might go unnoticed, given the topic title is different to what you are looking for.

[chickpea]

Thanks for your reply above. I did actually start a new topic, but no replies yet. I also have to do a TOC (Transfer of Conditions) between passports but according to the employer I am just leaving (Oxford) I do not need the BRP to be legal to work even though my new employer thinks so. I came in before the requirement and will automatically get it when I transfer to my new passport (otherwise I'd get it when I do my next LTR visa). Oh well, at least I will have one!

[edited for clarification!]

[vparikh]

Thanks for your reply above. I did actually start a new topic, but no replies yet. I also have to do a TOC (Transfer of Conditions) between passports but according to the employer I am just leaving (Oxford) I do not need the BRP to be legal to work even though my new employer thinks so. I came in before the requirement and will automatically get it when I transfer to my new passport (otherwise I'd get it when I do my next LTR visa). Oh well, at least I will have one!

[edited for clarification!]

In regards to the BRP, did your new employer take the photocopy of the 'vignette' (visa sticker) in your passport? The new employer might not be aware that the BRP is just a replacement of that vignette. I am sure you might have seen this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... t-form-toc

Worth checking with one of the immigration lawyers regarding this.

Sorry if I haven't been of much help here. Still new to these procedures...

[chickpea]

In regards to the BRP, did your new employer take the photocopy of the 'vignette' (visa sticker) in your passport? The new employer might not be aware that the BRP is just a replacement of that vignette. I am sure you might have seen this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... t-form-toc

Worth checking with one of the immigration lawyers regarding this.

Sorry if I haven't been of much help here. Still new to these procedures...

Yes they did, though it's unclear what my new employer knows in full.

While you were typing this I was on the phone to the Home Office help line (0300 number) for UKVI. Wow they were excellent. Turns out that the responsibility to inform about the need for a BRP is on the employer at the point of recruitment. So it is entirely their fault for not informing me when they made me an offer of employment that I would need the BRP. Interesting! (Their mistake cost me £400.)

In your case, the employer just has to wait til you have everything. Sure wish I was in your shoes, I will likely only JUST get the BRP before teaching starts.

Here is a good FYI for this thread from the official Home Office line though:
An employer does not need to have your BRP in hand as long as you have a document that states you were approved for one and the employer can see it on their (Home Office) system. They did admit this can take a few days, as it won't immediately appear on the system, but they do NOT have to have the actual card in hand!

[chickpea]

Updating my own thread though still looking for answers to the list in first post (not urgent, but very curious).

Today I spoke with the Home Office UKVI section on their 0300 number, and they were very very helpful. I chose the option for employment/proof of right to work issues.

It turns out that the information point is the employer. Therefore my new employer should have informed me of the need to apply for a TOC with BRP at the point of recruitment. The UKVI person was very clear on this.

(So, oh joy, it's my new employer's fault I am out £400 for the need to get the BRP with such speed!)

[vparikh]

In regards to the BRP, did your new employer take the photocopy of the 'vignette' (visa sticker) in your passport? The new employer might not be aware that the BRP is just a replacement of that vignette. I am sure you might have seen this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... t-form-toc

Worth checking with one of the immigration lawyers regarding this.

Sorry if I haven't been of much help here. Still new to these procedures...

Yes they did, though it's unclear what my new employer knows in full.

While you were typing this I was on the phone to the Home Office help line (0300 number) for UKVI. Wow they were excellent. Turns out that the responsibility to inform about the need for a BRP is on the employer at the point of recruitment. So it is entirely their fault for not informing me when they made me an offer of employment that I would need the BRP. Interesting! (Their mistake cost me £400.)

In your case, the employer just has to wait til you have everything. Sure wish I was in your shoes, I will likely only JUST get the BRP before teaching starts.

Here is a good FYI for this thread from the official Home Office line though:
An employer does not need to have your BRP in hand as long as you have a document that states you were approved for one and the employer can see it on their (Home Office) system. They did admit this can take a few days, as it won't immediately appear on the system, but they do NOT have to have the actual card in hand!

There are couple of things that I find really strange about what you have been told by the Home Office and the knowledge of your employer regarding this.

1) If you did not have a BRP yet, how come you were not asked to have one up until now by the Home Office. This only means to me that either your 'vignette' in your passport is still the valid evidence, else it would have caused you some problem by now. Having a new passport (if your previous one is going to expire) should not trigger the need for BRP (unless the rules have changed) logically. But I am afraid that things that are logical to do are not always what the Home Office wants us to do.

2) In regards to your Home Office conversation, if I play devil's advocate here, if circumstances change (e.g. transferring your visa to the new passport), you would have to pay for BRP anyway. Of course, you could argue as why did the employer say this to you. To this, they could respond what the Home Office suggests: it is the responsibility of the individual to ensure he has valid/up to date documentation for leave to remain.

Whilst the quote sounds reasonably in your favour, can I ask if your new employer has an immigration help line or an office that supports students' immigration queries.

PS: I would like to know the name of your employer but feel free not to, if you dont feel comfortable disclosing it here.

[vparikh]

Look at this link, which might suggest something differently (especially the bold writing):

https://www.gov.uk/transfer-visa

[chickpea]

Hi vparikh!

Hopefully I'll be clear here and answer your queries. Bear in mind of course I'm not sponsored by an employer so things work slightly differently for me as a spouse visa holder.

1. I don't have a BRP because I've never been required to have one. Changing jobs changes the requirement because (according to the HO help person) I now have to have my visa in my current passport OR the BRP. Of course, in the weird way things work, the BRP will be given to me automatically when I do the transfer of conditions (they don't transfer visas, and I had been very careful to be sure I didn't need to when I got the new passport). If I stay with my old employer then I don't have to do anything or get a BRP until I apply for my next period of Leave to Remain. Hope this makes sense to you, it was clear to me. It's apparently valid to use two passports until you start with a new employer and then you have to comply with new rules - but the employer has to tell you!

2. The HOme Office was very clear that I am not at fault as I had no way to know the rules or my requirements had changed, except through a new employer. My documents are valid for being in the country and for my old job (grandfathered in) but not for a new job.

3. My employer (sorry I won't say who only because I think they already feel badly that this is their fault and I don't need to give them any bad publicity or lose goodwill!) has given me a employee helpline number but it's for general support not immigration related. But honestly the Home Office help was really great - clear and straightforward and answered all my questions. They were very sheepish about how they don't tell people the rules and that the employers have to tell us. (They have millions of visa holders so they can't inform us all of every change, so they go through channels like employment!)

I hope this is clear! I could easily have taken care of it all in early July for £183 and there would be no issues, but no one told me and the Home Office is clear I was not to know! My HR people at Oxford were funny and rolled their eyes about the rule changes, since they have to do new kinds of compliance regularly.

[chickpea]

Look at this link, which might suggest something differently (especially the bold writing):

https://www.gov.uk/transfer-visa

Believe it or not my new employer sent me this link! Basically the information is correct but not full... if you need to prove your right to work then the rules are different. (The webpage SHOULD say somewhere WHY anyone would need to transfer a visa, instead they say only why you shouldn't need to!)

[vparikh]

You couldnt have been clearer chickpea.

Apologies if you had to go extra mile to make me understand. But now I do (Steep learning curve)

So I guess the conclusion is that you will have to now apply for BRP...

I can only hope it gets sorted for you

[chickpea]

You couldnt have been clearer chickpea.

Apologies if you had to go extra mile to make me understand. But now I do (Steep learning curve)

So I guess the conclusion is that you will have to now apply for BRP...

I can only hope it gets sorted for you

Thanks vparikh!

I will say that my employer is in London and I live a little way out, but I will be attending my appointment in your city of Sheffield (as that was the only place available w/c 14 Sept!).

[chickpea]

Update to thread, also to include timings of application & receipt of BRP:

Date notified that BRP needed (via Transfer of Conditions or TOC): 3 September 2015
Date of appointment booked and payment made (£583 incl £400 for premium appt): 3 Sept 2015
Date of appointment made (Sheffield, none available in Birmingham or Croydon or Liverpool): 17 September 2015
Application successful at appointment (though they thought I should not have needed one - another story altogether!), letter stating BRP will be issued also received at appointment.
Date of receipt of BRP card by courier: 22 Sept 2015.

So the card came only three working days after the appointment, though they say to allow ten. Not bad.

The only issue now is to find out whether the employer was allowed to prevent me working until receipt of BRP when I was clearly legal. The case worker at UKVI Sheffield said that they were not to have stopped me, and guidance from the 0300 number seemed to agree but the employer claims the Home Office has given them different information!

[Lynz1988]

You are lucky - I had my appointment last Friday and was approved last Friday and I'm still waiting for my BRP. So frustrating. Glad to see you got everything sorted. I still had the old vignette sticker in my passport from my previous employer - it's really frustrating because depending on who you talk to, you get different information. Everything seems quite scattered.

[Lynz1988]

Adding in (since I can't edit my post!): I was told that I could not work until I have received my BRP though my situation is different as I was made redundant in July from my previous sponsor. Needless to say I am very antsy to receive my BRP already!!

I think if you are with the same employer, you are still legally allowed to work even though you have not received your BRP yet.

[chickpea]

Adding in (since I can't edit my post!): I was told that I could not work until I have received my BRP though my situation is different as I was made redundant in July from my previous sponsor. Needless to say I am very antsy to receive my BRP already!!

I think if you are with the same employer, you are still legally allowed to work even though you have not received your BRP yet.

So your appt was on the 18th and nothing in the post yet? I definitely think I was very lucky with the speed of delivery. One thing I will say is that the courier had some trouble finding me and it could not be accepted by anyone but me - I had to show ID in order to sign for and receive my card!

I was given two different answers by the Home Office (UKVI)... more than once I was told they should not stop me working without the BRP since I was clearly legal to work, and the last enquiry they said I could not work without the BRP (except, bizarrely at my old employer? which makes NO sense to me...). I'm going to see if I can write them for clarification.

Good luck - hope your BRP arrives soon!

[ukgirl]

I too have been caught out by the requirement of a biometric card when I changed employers. The employer, in fairness, was fantastic but did not receive the correct information from the Home Office help line. We had to muddle through together with the help of my MP.

It is now a requirement for all migrants to have a biometric card if you want to work in the UK. It is a requirement for your employer to check that you hold the correct documentation to allow you to work in the UK.

But it doesn't appear to be retrospective - in my case I have two part time jobs. I have had to prove my right to work in the UK by completing and submitting a NTL form (which the employer can check through the employer's helpline) for my new employer, but for my other employer (I started work before the legislation changed), my existing document was and will remain valid.

I have spoken to my MP and he has informed me he has raised it with colleagues in the Home Office.

[chickpea]

Thanks for the reply ukgirl and it's good to know I'm not alone.

Out of curiosity, how did you find out you needed a BRP? My new employer insists I should have known simply because I had two passports (which seems odd). On the other hand the Home Office helpline and service centre both agreed I had no way to know without the employer telling me. I lost a huge amount of pay and the £400 fee, so I am still unhappy about it.

[wclark1238]

As time rolls along more and more of us are going to find out about this change in Home Office guidance/rules.

My situation - US citizen, have lived in the UK since 1972, granted ILtR in 1973 (aged 11). Have never had any dramas travelling in and out of UK. Changed jobs in June, happily new employer did not explore my right to work in the UK however after a few weeks in the role I realised it was a poor fit for me. I went to an employment agency to sign up for some alternative work and was rejected due to my inability to prove my status as eligible to work. I was dumbfounded (having lived/worked here for >40 years) but did my own research to verify that the agency were merely applying the latest HO guidance.

I submitted my NTL/BRP application a couple of weeks ago and await developments - I could not justify the extra expense for a premium appointment so am going through 'normal' channels. Money taken within a day or two of my application being delivered to Durham so hopefully it'll progress through the system speedily and I can get working again (having quit my [hated] previous job).

Anyway, it appears that a small subset of migrants are being caught up in this transitionary period where the new requirements are not well understood by many. I feel deeply for those impacted who, through no fault of their own, find themselves unable to work in circumstances where they really need the money. Happily I can cope for several months without an income while I wait for the wheels to turn to get my BRP but there surely will be others who will suffer hardship because of this.

[ukgirl]

Hi Chickpea

I only found out I needed a biometric card when I showed my passport to a new employer as part of their routine "new employee" checks.

The employer contacted the HO helpline after completing an online form for employees who do not have a UK passport. It was only then that the employer realised that the legislation had changed (i.e. need for a biometric card). This is an employer of over 3000 employees.

By this time (having been offered the job) I had resigned and was working my notice period.

The HO admitted to me that "a lot of people such as myself (who have been living and working here for decades) had been caught unawares".

It has been a dreadful experience not helped by the need to have my passport back in order to travel to my home country to visit sick relatives.

If I withdraw my application (to get my passport back from the HO), I not only lose the fee but have to start the process again. From reading the website posts, it seems that since the election the processing time for applications has increased by several months. I have a deadline (HO imposed) where I have to show my employer my biometric card, but the HO will not expedite the application process or even give me a timescale.

I urge others who may read this post to think again about submitting a postal application.

[chickpea]

...
I only found out I needed a biometric card when I showed my passport to a new employer as part of their routine "new employee" checks.

The employer contacted the HO helpline after completing an online form for employees who do not have a UK passport. It was only then that the employer realised that the legislation had changed (i.e. need for a biometric card). This is an employer of over 3000 employees.

By this time (having been offered the job) I had resigned and was working my notice period.

The HO admitted to me that "a lot of people such as myself (who have been living and working here for decades) had been caught unawares".

It has been a dreadful experience not helped by the need to have my passport back in order to travel to my home country to visit sick relatives.

If I withdraw my application (to get my passport back from the HO), I not only lose the fee but have to start the process again. From reading the website posts, it seems that since the election the processing time for applications has increased by several months. I have a deadline (HO imposed) where I have to show my employer my biometric card, but the HO will not expedite the application process or even give me a timescale.

I urge others who may read this post to think again about submitting a postal application.

Sounds like your experience was similar to mine, only problem for me was that the new employer had not bothered to tell me (they too are a huge employer) when they first had my documentation in late June, so after I started on 1st September they stopped me working. By then I had long since given notice and stopped working, meaning I then - because the new employer wouldn't allow me to work, though clearly legal - spent almost a month unemployed!

Did your new employer allow you to work? Mine claimed the HO said I couldn't, but for me in two calls and one Premium appointment the HO told me I should be able to continue working. REALLY upset still about all this.

As someone said in another thread somewhere around here, there are millions of us that could fall into this legislative hole - all it takes is changing jobs. I know I need to write my MP about it and I think you said above that you had done so. I encourage all in this situation to do so too! I also hope to get an address to write the HO for clarification.

So sorry your wait is so long and I hope you will post here the total timeframe! I considered saving the money but not knowing how much salary I would lose I ended up borrowing from a relative to cover it.

[ukgirl]

Hi again
My new employer only allowed me to work after my MP intervened.

The HR department staff rang the help line for employers several times but was given incorrect and conflicting information.

By this time I had worked my notice period so like you was getting desperate! MP's have a "hot line" to the Home Office, so it is worth while telephoning/emailing your MP to ask for help.

My MP was able to confirm that I was entitled to work and eventually the HR department got the information they needed to allow me to start work, on the understanding that I had to produce my biometric card within six months otherwise I could not be employed.

Fingers crossed for a quick turnaround?

[chickpea]

Adding this information because someone asked via PM and it seems the PM didn't go anywhere.

For my TOC application they were unclear which documents were required, they only give a list of potential docs you can submit. Hence I sent (took with me actually) - if I remember correctly, these:

A printed statement from my bank (had it mailed to me)
A letter from my employer confirming my employment and my NI number
A letter from my GP confirming registration with them
Both passports and new photos (not used on the BRP card, oddly)

I think that's all. Hope this helps!