help advice needed very confused. fraud??

[jav1234]

hi folks

just stumbled across this forum while doing some research
I am in a situation where i am in need of advice/some information

so bare with me and here goes

1) i am uk national born and lived in uk all my life so no issues for me regarding visa etc
2) i entered an arranged islamic marriage ceremony approx 2.5 years ago to a girl who was living in uk at time but was here on some sort of visa. it was an arranged marriage so i didnt get to know her much and my family didnt ask too many questions regarding what type of visa she had either..they trusted the family and i was naive but here we are. ...story unfolds.
3) my family were told you dont have to worry about settlement/visa we have it under control and will take care of everything. They showed my parents a green card with her photo on which said residence permit 10 years which she apparently got after being in UK for 2 years on a work permit visa.
4) we didnt register the marriage under uk law as they didnt ask and we didnt think there was a need to either
5) any way we had a child together, we were living together at my parents home, things were fine,
6) I tried to open a bank account for her for child benefit but was unable to do so due to no sufficient id or proof of address of her living with me... i resulted in changing over 1 of 2 existing bank accounts to my home address. The other one stayed the same as before as i didnt have paperwork/details for it at time.
7) i became suspicious however when i discovered she was still using her previous address for all home office correspondence, and also still had the other bank account registered there. she would get get sister to book all tests etc and she refused to completely change address details to where we were living. so essentially she was using 2 addresses.
Then i asked why there was a need for tests etc if she had this so called 10 year residence permit.
so one day in general conversation i asked why dont you change addresses as its wrong and possibly illegal...and was told it would just confuse the application process and that it wasnt my place to worry or ask...her family was taking care of everything. so i asked her when exactly she came to uk but was told 'i cant remember you will have to ask my sister' and also i asked what type of visa are you on again was told 'dont know' my sister did the whole application process.
9) she also mentioned to my mum during course of us living together that she had infact lied about her d.o.b to qualify for the minimum age of 21 for visa application...what this means i dont know
10) then she threw a strop and told her sister i had upset her and didnt trust her etc
11) so after a month or so...(after various phone calls and secret back ground scheming) 1 day at midnight police turned up at my house and took my 'wife' and my child. didnt arrest me or anyone else/not even statements down station. or tell us as to why they came. other than a call for 'concerns of her welfare' (even though she had been to a wedding during the day)
she returned a week later again with police to collect all remainder of her belongings which we didnt object to. I havent heard off the police since and her family are ignoring us saying we dont know where she is etc. I dont know where shes gone and having seen my son for almost 3 months now

so essentially she has used this 'welfare threat' in order to gain acess and support to welfare system and also possibly secure a permanent residency in the uk by having a british born child as she became rattled when i asked about her visa status etc.

my questions is
1) how is it possible to someone lie about their age on visa process...surely she must have provided fake documents
2) my research shows that the age requirement of 21 applies to spouse visas...in which case again its fraudulent if she came into uk on a sham marriage spouse visa from a relative or friend and got remarried without filing for a divorce in uk
3) if this 10 year residence permit was genuine...under what circumstances is it possible to obtain it after 2 years in uk...again spouse visa is looking like the likely route

The more i read about it...the more it appears that my case bears all hall marks of a girl come to uk. marriages a 'visa mule' alleges dv to end marriage and then will get help from system in terms of welfare, legal costs, and also permanent citizenship as there is a loop hole to exploit. It has now dourned on me that she used to mention...x' y' z 'girl was abused she called police, got a council home, everything paid, even helped her with her passport etc, loving life. Its almost become a wide spead trend

Any help is appreciated as i am gathering evidence for court regarding getting access to my child and by me prooving she lied about everything then it will help my case and if i can proove she came her fraudulently even better.

The home office needs to be more aware of these scammers who come here to expoit the system just for their personal gain

look forward to feedback and replied

[noajthan]

A disturbing story and an unusual and sad case.
You have sympathy, hope you can find your child.

btw, there is no longer a 21 years old minimum age threshold for spouse visas.

... following a ruling by the Supreme Court in the case of Quila and Bibi v Secretary of State for the Home Department, which sought to overturn an arguably discriminatory stance - raising the eligibility age to 21 - introduced by the UK Government in 2008 ...

The court ruled that despite its underlying purpose to eradicate crime, the exclusion of genuine couples between 18 and 21 signified a breach of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

See also https://www.gov.uk/report-immigration-crime

[jav1234]

thanks

yes i know the minimum age thing doesnt apply

from what ive learned so far she came to uk early 2011. and got ILR (or the green card they showed) in approx march 2013.

my question is from what ive mentioned what are the indications...was she here on a sham marriage ?

or a work permit...but how can someone who can barely speak/read/write english with no formal uk related qualifications get a work permit visa and then subsequently 2 years later apply for ILR /green card residence permit

is there any way of finding out any information that would help my case.

[Casa]

If she applied in 2011 and was granted a visa, I believe the '21 rule' was probably still in place then for a spouse visa application. After 2 years (under the pre-July 2012 rules) she would have qualified for ILR. The 10 year visa doesn't appear to fit any category, unless I'm missing something obvious.
Where did you marry?

Edit: The 10 year visa could be discretionary leave. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t_2015.pdf

[Obie]

thanks

yes i know the minimum age thing doesnt apply

from what ive learned so far she came to uk early 2011. and got ILR (or the green card they showed) in approx march 2013.

my question is from what ive mentioned what are the indications...was she here on a sham marriage ?

or a work permit...but how can someone who can barely speak/read/write english with no formal uk related qualifications get a work permit visa and then subsequently 2 years later apply for ILR /green card residence permit

is there any way of finding out any information that would help my case.

Have you not thought about the fact that this lady did not tell you about her immigration status because she thought that you might form the view that she was marrying you for immigration benefits.

Immigrants / especially undocumented ones , are treated as criminal these days, so no surprises that she was scared to tell you .

If she wanted to use Domestic Violence, she may have got you arrested.

You just need to make are feel that she can trust you, rather that accusing her of committing criminal offense.

Due to the fact that you have a child together, she could secure residency with or without you, and it makes little sense for her to use domestic violence.

[aseeker]

Hi,

I read you post. You are painting yourself as 100% victim here. We don't here her side. I think you not being completely honest. Everything fine for you until the moment she decides to leave you.

Facts of case are:

YOU married complete stranger.

YOU had sex with her.

YOU didn't register your so called "marriage".

"My research shows"? My research shows 70% of Pakistanis and Banglashis marry a foreign national and in far too often the girl them becomes litle more than a domestic slave for the mother in law.

Simple solution to all your problems ? Don't marry, and have sex with, a complete stranger because it is all for your benefit and benefit of your family.

You are lucky no allegations. Domestic violence least of your worries. One day, Pakistani men with illiterate imported wives could be facing big problems. Think witchunt of TV stars, then grooming gangs. All it takes is one high profile case, and suddenly media starts campaign.

"Marraiged to a stranger you did't know? Forced, co-erced, mane to have sex when you didn't really want to but felt that you had to because you were wife and it was your duty? Mabye you have been raped? Call this number now for help and compensation - 0800" . Wait and see...

[Obie]

Where does this research originate from.

Your comments seems offensive, if not to OP, but 70% of Pakistani, and it would have been helpful if you could at lest have provided the source of this research.

[aseeker]

Bangladeshi's, 73.1 % of males and females born in the UK (or immigrated as child) have spouse who arrived in UK as an adult.

Pakistani's 65.1 % of males and females born in the UK (or immigrated as child) have spouse who arrived in UK as an adult.

15 per cent of "Pakistanis" born in Bradford in 2009 had two parents born in the UK. 85% had foreign born parent.

Official study by Andreas Georgiadis and Alan Manning of London School Of Economics

Report here if you want to see for yourself

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/dp0903.pdf

[Obie]

Where is this you research that shows that 70% of these women are slaves or little less than slaves to their parent in laws.

The study you highlighted above clearly does not show that.

It is post like this that gets me really upset. They are zenophobic and designed to vilify a particular community, and I find this totally unacceptable.

If you continue this conduct , I will have no hesitation in banning you.

[aseeker]

hi folks

1) i am uk national born and lived in uk all my life

2) i entered an arranged islamic marriage ceremony ... it was an arranged marriage so i didnt get to know her much

4) we didnt register the marriage under uk law ...

.. scammers ... expoit ... personal gain

MY QUESTION IS

You are British Citizen, you speak English, you know the law.

You got "married".

Why did you not "register" marriage ?

Why ?

[Casa]

@aseeker I agree with Obie. Posts with this dearly beloved tone aren't acceptable on the forum. Members if not sympathetic to your own situation, at least haven't been openly judgemental. Please give the same respect others.
FYI - If a marriage is legal in the country where it takes place, there is no need to formally register it in the UK.

[aseeker]

Where is this you research that shows that 70% of these women are slaves or little less than slaves to their parent in laws.

The study you highlighted above clearly does not show that.

It is post like this that gets me really upset. They are zenophobic and designed to vilify a particular community, and I find this totally unacceptable.

If you continue this conduct , I will have no hesitation in banning you.

Please,

I didn't say 70%. I said far too often.

Apologies if you take offence, but it happens. I didn't say 70%, i said "and far too often", and this was about foreign spouse, not 70% of marraiges. Although average of 70~% of marraiges are to foreign spouse.

But survey clearly shows that Banglashi and Pakistani marrying foreign nationals in huge numbers. Cannot deny this. Statitics are not dearly beloved.

Point is, OP is British citizen, British educated, English speaking, married stranger and did not register his marraige ?

Despite his other issues, this is very strange.

[Casa]

@aseeker I agree with Obie. Posts with this dearly beloved tone aren't acceptable on the forum. Members if not sympathetic to your own situation, at least haven't been openly judgemental. Please give the same respect others.
FYI - If a marriage is legal in the country where it takes place, there is no need to formally register it in the UK.

[Obie]

"My research shows"? My research shows 70% of Pakistanis and Banglashis marry a foreign national and in far too often the girl them becomes litle more than a domestic slave for the mother in law.



You are lucky no allegations. Domestic violence least of your worries. One day, Pakistani men with illiterate imported wives could be facing big problems. Think witchunt of TV stars, then grooming gangs. All it takes is one high profile case, and suddenly media starts

These are the portions of your post I find most distressing, and worst of it is, you mentioned your research.

I have yet to see this research.

[aseeker]

FYI - If a marriage is legal in the country where it takes place, there is no need to formally register it in the UK.

1) i am uk national born and lived in uk all my life

2) i entered an arranged islamic marriage

to a girl who was living in uk at here on some sort of visa.

i didnt get to know her

my family didnt ask too many questions regarding what type of visa she had..

4) we didnt register the marriage under uk law

Clearly marraige took place in UK

[aseeker]

you mentioned your research.

I have yet to see this research.

OP said his research shows.

I did not "research". I read something in newspapers. He said researsh shows. I used the phrase.

But you asked for some research, and I found something. I was wrong, I said 70%, obviously only 64%.

Read newspapers. Pick up any newspaper today. UK is now hotbed of accusations, against TV stars, politicians, teachers. People being convicted of crimes despite fact at the time they said they consented and the criminal said they consented. Then later they say didnt consent, were forced, were scared, felt they had to. Again. look at all cases against TV presenters. Look at cases against teachers. Even recently woman teacher is convicted of offence against boy. But boys father took teachers side and said son probably willing participant. She still convicted. Look at famous footballer. 2 men 1 girl. judge say 1 man is consent, other man is rape. This is the law in UK. In UK today, men and women need to be very careful in the bedroom. Years later, accusation, there will be knock on door, evidence or no evidence. accuastion is enough. Police take it very seriously becuase in past they didn't. If you accused now, you will face serious investigation. all i am saying. take offence if you wish. no offence meant. and no beloved. simply facts of life.

[Casa]

This forum and this thread isn't the place for your comments. Please don't continue with this as it's not acceptable and has no relevance here.

[Casa]

FYI - If a marriage is legal in the country where it takes place, there is no need to formally register it in the UK.

1) i am uk national born and lived in uk all my life

2) i entered an arranged islamic marriage

to a girl who was living in uk at here on some sort of visa.

i didnt get to know her

my family didnt ask too many questions regarding what type of visa she had..

4) we didnt register the marriage under uk law

Clearly marraige took place in UK

There is nothing 'clear' about the place of marriage, which is why I have asked for clarification from the OP.

[mkhan2525]

Hi,

"My research shows"? My research shows 70% of Pakistanis and Banglashis marry a foreign national and in far too often the girl them becomes litle more than a domestic slave for the mother in law.

Well this is a very incorrect statement and deeply offensive.

Men can equally suffer from domestic voilence related crimes. For a example a friend was telling me about his cousin who married a foreigner and she brought him over to the UK. When he arrived her family had treated him appaulingly. They used to hit him and take all his money off him, make him do all the house work after he retuned from work and then they would chuck him out on the streets everynight.

This guy had a brother in the UK who lives a few hours away and he used to come to pick him up every night when his wife and family threw him out. His brother advised him to put up with everything as he was on a 2 year spouse visa and would be eligible to apply for ILR. He continued to put up with this treatment and asked the wife to support his ILR application when the time came. She agreed, and once he got ILR he left her. Who could blame him.

I have also heard of accounts where women have brought someone over as spouse will not support an application for ILR. Instead they opt for an extension so that they can keep them under their thumb.

[Casa]

Hi,

"My research shows"? My research shows 70% of Pakistanis and Banglashis marry a foreign national and in far too often the girl them becomes litle more than a domestic slave for the mother in law.

Well this is a very incorrect statement and deeply offensive.

Men can equally suffer from domestic voilence related crimes. For a example a friend was telling me about his cousin who married a foreigner and she brought him over to the UK. When he arrived her family had treated him appaulingly. They used to hit him and take all his money off him, make him do all the house work after he retuned from work and then they would chuck him out on the streets everynight.

This guy had a brother in the UK who lives a few hours away and he used to come to pick him up every night when his wife and family threw him out. His brother advised him to put up with everything as he was on a 2 year spouse visa and would be eligible to apply for ILR. He continued to put up with this treatment and asked the wife to support his ILR application when the time came. She agreed, and once he got ILR he left her. Who could blame him.

I have also heard of accounts where women have brought someone over as spouse will not support an application for ILR. Instead they opt for an extension so that they can keep them under their thumb.

@mkhan2525 Exactly, it's unfair to discriminate. You will see that Obie has put aseeker on a caution.

[aseeker]

First. Thank you for this website, where people with issues can discuss amongst themselves before dealing with officials. I read this website for many years. People recommended it to me. I have gained much valuable knowledge which I have used in my own life. Without this website I would have made mistakes. I recommened it to people. So thank you to the people. I am grateful to this website for helping me stay in UK.

Second. Please allow me to give sincere apologies to those who have taken offence.

Third. What I should have said was SOME not "far too many". However, mkhan2525 says offence, then tells stories of exactly same thing, just mans instead of womans. Please, when you see things with own eyes, are you supposed to pretend you don't see because you are beloved?

Fourth. Statistics is not beloved. It is just counting. If statistics say that 50% of French people in UK face beloved and goverment give more money from state to make better, that is good statistic. If statistic say 50% of Germans in UK live in overcrowding council housing, and goverment must give more money to make bigger houses, then that it good statistic. But when I post statistic that 85 per cent of Pakistanis born in Bradford in 2009 had only one UK parent, that is bad statistic ?

Fifth. This board is TO HELP IMMIGRANT. From reading OP post, it seems that he wants to find some way she has broken immigration laws ONLY AFTER PROBLEMS. Please tell me if I wrong. What I see is man who married illiterate woman with no speaken or written english, discussed her immigration status with her parents at the time, and only now when things go wrong is there problem. When I marry wife, I did not ask her parents about her immigration status, I ask her if she love me like I love her and we can be happy together. Not what immigration status you have.

Sixth. Real victim here is wife. She is in strange country, with no language, and she married to English speaking man, maybe she do not want to be. Now she has small child, it seems man looking for her immigration faults, to report her. Maybe she did not want to be married and have sex with man who her parents made her? She is victim here. OP is NOT IMMIGRANT. He in no fear of being made to leave UK.

Please don't call me dearly beloved. I have dealt with more beloved than you can ever imagine. beloved is being fearing for you life, that at any day, somebody can kill you. Never mind being second class citizen, refused job , refused everything. Not making comment that is not gramitcally correct or upset somebody. beloved is life in South Africa, Palestine, Saudi, Russia. Not making comment.

I appreciate comments. I abide by rules. I ask you do not ban me because of pettiness. I said sorry. I am sorry. Thank You

[Casa]

Your apology is appreciated. Can we please draw a line under this now and get back to advising the OP (without judging or surmising what may or may not be).

[Obie]

Banning people from this forum is something I hate doing. It is the last resort rather than the first option.

Your views were not based on fact but streotypical view, aimed at causing discord.

I know no research or study will say 70% of Pakistani women are little less than a slave to their in laws.

I can quote statistic on Forced marriage, or forced marriage protection order, that are based on fact, yours was not.

It is not the same with Palestine .