FLR(M) - Premium/in person/by post?

[randomwelshman]

My wife's Spouse/CP visa runs out 8 November 2015. I am applying for an extension via FLR(M). The current plan is to pay premium, visit the local UKBA centre and apply in person at the end of this month.

Is this the best way to go about it? There is some doubt as to whether we can make the financial requirement. I can make a good case that we will exceed the requirement for the financial year of the company that I own (financial year ends in February) but not sure how they will take this.

If her application is rejected, is her ability to appeal affected by her having applied in person, or so late?

If her application is rejected, will she be forced to depart the country immediately?

Apologies for what may seem like very obvious questions. I have been doing lots of reading but the learning curve is steep.

Thanks
Welshie

[Casa]

If you are unable to meet the minimum finance level, your wife won't be made to leave the country, she should be issued with discretionary leave which is a longer path to settlement. However, in person applications at a PSC (previously PEO), are only for 100% straightforward applications as the PSC case workers don't have the authority to make a decision that requires more evidence. You wouldn't be given the opportunity to explain discrepancies and at best the application would be passed to a senior case worker and your wife's application would join the postal queue with no rebate on the premium fee.
Forecasted earnings won't qualify. You need to show that you have earned £18,600 over the last 12 months and if you are self-employed you will have to submit accounts/self assessment tax returns/bank statements. Do bear in mind that for the self-employed, calculation is made on the nett amount after business expenses have been deducted. i.e the earnings on which HMRC claim tax due. Your wife will retain her legal status while the application is being decided. There is no difference in her appeal rights whether you apply in person or by post.
Is your wife not working?

[randomwelshman]

Thank you for this prompt reply.

No, my wife is essentially a stay-at-home mum. She does a little part-time work helping me with my business and also does some other internet-based work, but it's only a few thousand a year.

In my case I pay myself through my company, fairly common pattern for self-employed. My understanding is that in such cases the requirement is based on the financial year end, which in the company's case is February.

Last fiscal year I definitely didn't make enough to meet the requirement. I changed my line of work in February and it's going much better. Based on the evidence of the first 8 months from March to October 2015 this financial year (the one ending Febrary 2016), the combined incomes of her and I will probably exceed the requirement by a couple of thousand. That, as you say, would be post-tax.

Unfortunately I already applied for the premium appointment. Should I cancel, get a refund for the premium service portion and just send in a postal application?

How does an application for discretionary leave work? (Sorry, not expecting you to explain the whole thing, but any pointers would be welcome.)

Welshie

[Casa]

I don't usually post links to external blogs, and please don't take this as a recommendation for the company who posted it as I know nothing about them, but this will probably give you a basic understanding of the difference between FLR(M) and FLR(FP).
http://1st4immigration-visas.blogspot.c ... m-and.html

Wanderer (if he's still up) generally has sound advice on the requirement for self-employment earnings. Your decision on whether to go for your PSC appointment or apply by post, probably rests on what documented evidence of earnings you're able to gather and if you can show the crucial £18,600 earning between you.
By the way, I may not have explained the tax issue well. It's not the post (after) tax income. It's the figure you declare to HMRC for tax calculation after you've deducted your allowable business expenses.

[randomwelshman]

Thank you, that's very interesting. I just ran the figures and for the most recent 12 months (October 2014 to October 2015) the company has paid about £11,500 in salaries to myself and my wife and over the same period has generated about £12,000 in net profit before tax.

So if I add together 11,500 + 12,000 I would on that basis I would hit the requirement I guess. If I am allowed to calculate it that way?

The problem as I see it is that my understanding is that the UKBA wants the most recent reported financial year for the company, which ended in February 2015 and the 12 months from February 2014 to February 2015 generated hardly any net profit. (I changed my line of business.) So that would not work.

Unless my understanding is wrong and the most recent 12 months of trading leading up to the application is what is required?

Welshie

[Casa]

Wait for advice from members who have more knowledge on how this is calculated. I guess most are now logged off for the night...but I'll keep an eye on the thread for you tomorrow.

[randomwelshman]

Wait for advice from members who have more knowledge on how this is calculated.

I read through Appendix FM-SE today, which if anything left me even more confused. There is definitely a focus on submitting the most recent accounts if you run a company. It's not clear if that means that the most recent year is all you can use.

Welshie

[Wanderer]

The self employed don't get salaries, they take 'drawings' - are you self employed or a director of your own Limited Company?

[Casa]

The self employed don't get salaries, they take 'drawings' - are you self employed or a director of your own Limited Company?

The cavalry have arrived! This one was beyond me...thanks Wanderer...over to you.

[randomwelshman]

The self employed don't get salaries, they take 'drawings' - are you self employed or a director of your own Limited Company?

Yes, I am the sole shareholder and, as you say, the director of a Limited Company. Employees are myself and (as of May this year I think) my wife.

Welshie

[randomwelshman]

The self employed don't get salaries, they take 'drawings' - are you self employed or a director of your own Limited Company?

In terms of the timing of the income to be submitted, I think it's clear that my situation is that of a limited company belonging to the category described in FM-SE 9(a).

Furthermore, while in FM-SE 19(b)i it states that "gross taxable profits from their share of the business" may be used, the wording seems to apply only to a sole trader, franchisee or partner. FM-SE 19(e) again ties us back to the financial year that, for me, ended in February: "The financial year(s) to which paragraph 9 refers is the period of the last full financial year(s) to which the required Company Tax Return(s) CT600 relates."

EDIT: Hang on, I have checked the CT600 and it reports gross profits of £17,617. But then that's not "gross TAXABLE profits" as defined in FM-SE. So that's useless.

So the financial requirement is looking difficult, probably impossible to meet because it seems that it's the income during the financial year that matters.

Maybe my only option is to try for discretionary leave using FLR(FP)?

Welshie

[Casa]

Welshie, I don't have the answer, but hopefully Wanderer or one of the other members will have.

[randomwelshman]

Welshie, I don't have the answer, but hopefully Wanderer or one of the other members will have.

Casa, no problem at all, thank you for your good offices so far. Your comments about the possiblity of a path other than FLR(M) have been invaluable. Without them I wouldn't
have gone back to re-read it all, would have applied with FLR(M) and probably would have been shot down immediately.

Welshie

[Wanderer]

The self employed don't get salaries, they take 'drawings' - are you self employed or a director of your own Limited Company?

In terms of the timing of the income to be submitted, I think it's clear that my situation is that of a limited company belonging to the category described in FM-SE 9(a).

Furthermore, while in FM-SE 19(b)i it states that "gross taxable profits from their share of the business" may be used, the wording seems to apply only to a sole trader, franchisee or partner. FM-SE 19(e) again ties us back to the financial year that, for me, ended in February: "The financial year(s) to which paragraph 9 refers is the period of the last full financial year(s) to which the required Company Tax Return(s) CT600 relates."

EDIT: Hang on, I have checked the CT600 and it reports gross profits of £17,617. But then that's not "gross TAXABLE profits" as defined in FM-SE. So that's useless.

So the financial requirement is looking difficult, probably impossible to meet because it seems that it's the income during the financial year that matters.

Maybe my only option is to try for discretionary leave using FLR(FP)?

Welshie

As I see it, the profits of the company are not part of the equation, since it is a totally separate legal person and it's not applying for FLR!.

What you will need to show is yours and your wife's payslips issued by the company, and any dividend vouchers issued by the company.

[randomwelshman]

As I see it, the profits of the company are not part of the equation, since it is a totally separate legal person and it's not applying for FLR!.
What you will need to show is yours and your wife's payslips issued by the company, and any dividend vouchers issued by the company.

I take your point. I don't think I can meet FLR(M) financial requirements based on our joint income during the previous financial year. I hope that by the end of this financial year (end of February 2016) I will be able to prove enough income to meet FLR(M) requirements, but that's some way off.

In the meantime it would seem that the only thing left to do is to effectively throw ourselves on the mercy of the court by using FLR(FP) and request discretionary leave to remain for my wife based on her being married to myself and being mother of two children with British passports.

Thanks
Welshie

[Wanderer]

As I see it, the profits of the company are not part of the equation, since it is a totally separate legal person and it's not applying for FLR!.
What you will need to show is yours and your wife's payslips issued by the company, and any dividend vouchers issued by the company.

I take your point. I don't think I can meet FLR(M) financial requirements based on our joint income during the previous financial year. I hope that by the end of this financial year (end of February 2016) I will be able to prove enough income to meet FLR(M) requirements, but that's some way off.

In the meantime it would seem that the only thing left to do is to effectively throw ourselves on the mercy of the court by using FLR(FP) and request discretionary leave to remain for my wife based on her being married to myself and being mother of two children with British passports.

Thanks
Welshie

But if the Company is showing profits of £17k, then surely you can issue a dividend for the amount you are short, leaving enough in the Company for accrued CT etc. Your salaries will have already been accounted for.

Only issue I see is I don't know how a single dividend payment would fit the 12 months earning criteria etc.

[randomwelshman]

But if the Company is showing profits of £17k, then surely you can issue a dividend for the amount you are short, leaving enough in the Company for accrued CT etc. Your salaries will have already been accounted for.
Only issue I see is I don't know how a single dividend payment would fit the 12 months earning criteria etc.

Gross profits before expenses, unfortunately, not net taxable profits.

Welshie

[randomwelshman]

Two further questions, if I may.

1) When applying for FLR(FP), would it be wise in an accompanying letter to basically say "we wanted to do the FLR(M) route but we don't quite have enough money, but we should be able to fulfill that requirement soon"?

2) In general terms, what should I be emphasising in FLR(FP)? Children's life here in the UK, as they are now very settled? Or Wife's integration in the local community? My rather aged mother and aunt/uncle who have no relations close by other than myself?

Welshie

[Casa]

Two further questions, if I may.

1) When applying for FLR(FP), would it be wise in an accompanying letter to basically say "we wanted to do the FLR(M) route but we don't quite have enough money, but we should be able to fulfill that requirement soon"? No harm in stating the situation, although the case worker is likely to only take into account your financial status as it is now.

2) In general terms, what should I be emphasising in FLR(FP)? Children's life here in the UK, as they are now very settled? Or Wife's integration in the local community? My rather aged mother and aunt/uncle who have no relations close by other than myself? Hit them with everything you have.

Welshie

Don't be too concerned. Your wife won't be made to leave..it may just take longer for permanent settlement.

[randomwelshman]

Don't be too concerned. Your wife won't be made to leave..it may just take longer for permanent settlement.

Thank you for the reassuring words. My main concern, which sometimes keeps me awake at night, is the possibility that she might be separated from our two little boys. They have literally never spent a day without her and if she had to leave, even temporarily, it would be a significant event for them.

Like many law-abiding, self-supporting British citizens before me I'm finding that fighting my spouse's corner is far from easy...

Welshie

[randomwelshman]

Don't be too concerned. Your wife won't be made to leave..it may just take longer for permanent settlement.

Last week we cancelled the FLR(M) appointment last week and applied for a refund by email. We are in the process of completing the FLR(FP) form and will send off by special delivery on Thursday.

From the UKVI account we created and used to pay the fees, I can download a payment sheet, which shows £1,049 for the application fee, presumably the FLR(M) plus premium. So I guess the cancellation will be for this amount.

However, regarding the IHS, does the cancellation apply to that or only to the appointment & application? In other words, can we use our existing IHS payment sheet for our FLR(FP) application? We don't want to pay £500 twice, but if we apply and our existing IHS is invalid then we will presumably be refused!

Regards
Dan

[randomwelshman]

Don't be too concerned. Your wife won't be made to leave..it may just take longer for permanent settlement.

We applied via FLR(FP) on 6 November and got a "Yeah, this is going to take some time" letter on 22 November. Then we waited. Her application was approved on 12 February. She now has her biometric residence card and letter and all our materials have been sent back. So she's safe for another 30 months, to our enormous relief.

My basic strategy for the application was to provide as much original documentation as possible. Although we were applying via the FLR(FP) route I included every piece of supporting documentation that would have been required for an FLR(M) application.

I wrote a timeline of our relationship. I wrote one letter explaining the background to the application and why we were applying via FLR(FP). I wrote another explaining the recent change (for the better) in my financial circumstances, plus another letter explaining a point about my spouse's English language ability. I obtained letters of support from her employer, from the teachers at both of the children's schools and even her mother-in-law.

In addition we included many photos of myself with my spouse at all stages of our relationship and of our children here in the UK. As well as that I supplied original birth and marriage certificates, the passport of everybody in the family, dozens of pages of original bank statements for both individuals and my company, multiple proofs of address for both myself and the applicant, NHS registration documents for the children, National Insurance registration documents for the application, payslips, the certificate of incorporation for the company, company accounts - everything I could find that is asked for anywhere in the documentation.

I wanted the person reviewing the application to have everything at their fingertips and for there to be no room for doubt about the authenticity of the application or the applicant's sincerity. I made it clear they could call or write to us at any time if they needed any other documentation.

I put everything in clear pockets in an A4 file (which filled it to bursting point) and labelled each pocket with the relevant section in the form, where appropriate. Finally I sent the entire file off with the application form.

In the end, it was enough. I really didn't think it would be and I was braced for failure. I was actually researching the Surinder Singh route very carefully, but it turned out not to be needed.

Many thanks to Casa and Wanderer for their advice at a difficult time. Best of luck to anybody else starting on this journey. It's an intimidating route, but it can be travelled successfully.

Regards
Welshie

[Casa]

Well done! Thanks for the update and pleased everything worked out well for you both.