URGENT help needed in EEA PR application please help

[keshgrover]

Hi there,

I am seeking some serious consultation in regards to the PR application for myself and my husband(he is Indian).

We were married on 14th October 2003 and we both applied for Resident Permit under EU law on 26th November 2003. My husband had a full legal status on that time and he never overstayed. His visa was about to expire on 28th November 2003. Home Office received the application next day and we recieved resident permit on 16th December 2003. However I had been living with my husband for three months before marriage. Which was sometime in July in 2003. But i have been living in UK longer then that. (Arrived in UK in 2000 from portugal) and my husband was in country since 2001 came as student with two extensions till 2003.

All these years we have seen a lot in life from finest days to poorest but we have always been together. My husband tried some business and borrowed a lot of money from credit cards and loans through securing his house. Unfortunatelly business was big flopp and his house got repossesed he also got some country judgements as comnpanies tried to take the house.

Now our PR time is very close and I am little bit worried about him. Even he loose the business and his home he always been working one way another and had been paying tax. He has all of his P60's and Job letters as well. He worked Part time for one year out of 4. The biggest thing worries me is will his application be effected due to his house been repossesed and he has got a country court judgement or he will be fine? Because by the end of day I will have no life without him. So, let me make all this long story in short and explain what exactly I want to know

1) When should we apply for PR?
2) Will there be any problem for my husband to get it?
3) what sort of documents do we need to send to home office?

Note : I have been self-employed throughout the period and have always filed my Income Tax returns and have always paid my NI contributions aswell

[John]

Since the permits were issued on 16.12.03 a lot has happened, and it is impossible to ignore the significant changes. For a start the 4-year period leading to PR has changed to 5 years. Also the EU regulations that came into effect on 30.04.06 make considerable changes.

It seems clear from what you post that you are from one of the first 15 EU countries, before the A8, and Malta and Cyprus, and A2 countries joined. So we can ignore those joining dates.

Do appreciate that since the new EU regulations came into force on 30.04.06 any permit or card issued under EU law is merely confirmatory. That is, it gives no additional rights. It merely confirms the rights already held, but even that is useful to a non-EEA family member.

So what I think your husband should do now is to use form EEA2 to obtain a Residence Card. This will take him up to and beyond the 5 years now required for PR.

Then on 16.12.08, exactly 5 years after the issue of the first EU permit, he will get PR status. He can use form EEA4 to obtain proof that he has PR status.

What about you? You have also got a Residence Permit issued on 16.12.03. Up to you, it is now voluntary, but you can file a form EEA1 now, and a EEA3 in a year's time, but for you it is not so important, because merely showing your passport confirms your ability to work etc.. However it might prove useful if you also apply, at the same time as your husband, given that it will prove that you are exercising your EU Treaty Rights in the UK. That is, whilst no real help to you, it would assist your husband getting his documentation.

Don't see the financial position as a problem. There is no exclusion of the EU Treaty Rights for people in financial difficulties. Documentation? Download the EEA series forms, and have a look at them. Go to this BIA webpage. In the right-hand column you will see that all of the EEA1, EEA2, EEA3 and EEA4 forms can be downloaded.

Hope this helps.

[tasha75]

Syou can file a form EEA1 now, and a EEA3 in a year's time

But if she has been in the UK since year 2000 (and assuming she has been exercising Treaty rights for all this time) hasn't she automatically acquired the permanent status on 30/04/06?

[John]

My opinion is no, and the reason for that opinion if that prior to 30.04.06 the status was not granted automatically like it is now. So I think that her 5-year EU clock only starts on 16.12.03.

But totally possible I am overlooking something, or indeed giving a factor too much weight. Other opinions very welcome.

keshgrover, prior to the application in late 2003, was any application made here in the UK?

[JA13I]

John, I think I will have to go with tasha75 on this and say that inspite of not having a Residence permit prior to 2003, since the rules are interpretted retrospectively, if the OP has indeed resided since 2000 without being a burden on public funds, she might indeed have the PR since 30.04.2006!

[keshgrover]

Since the permits were issued on 16.12.03 a lot has happened, and it is impossible to ignore the significant changes. For a start the 4-year period leading to PR has changed to 5 years. Also the EU regulations that came into effect on 30.04.06 make considerable changes.

It seems clear from what you post that you are from one of the first 15 EU countries, before the A8, and Malta and Cyprus, and A2 countries joined. So we can ignore those joining dates.

Do appreciate that since the new EU regulations came into force on 30.04.06 any permit or card issued under EU law is merely confirmatory. That is, it gives no additional rights. It merely confirms the rights already held, but even that is useful to a non-EEA family member.

So what I think your husband should do now is to use form EEA2 to obtain a Residence Card. This will take him up to and beyond the 5 years now required for PR.

Then on 16.12.08, exactly 5 years after the issue of the first EU permit, he will get PR status. He can use form EEA4 to obtain proof that he has PR status.

What about you? You have also got a Residence Permit issued on 16.12.03. Up to you, it is now voluntary, but you can file a form EEA1 now, and a EEA3 in a year's time, but for you it is not so important, because merely showing your passport confirms your ability to work etc.. However it might prove useful if you also apply, at the same time as your husband, given that it will prove that you are exercising your EU Treaty Rights in the UK. That is, whilst no real help to you, it would assist your husband getting his documentation.

Don't see the financial position as a problem. There is no exclusion of the EU Treaty Rights for people in financial difficulties. Documentation? Download the EEA series forms, and have a look at them. Go to this BIA webpage. In the right-hand column you will see that all of the EEA1, EEA2, EEA3 and EEA4 forms can be downloaded.

Hope this helps.

Hi John many thanks for reply well residence card was issued to both of us for a period of 5 years. I was issued a residence card and he had his confirmation on his passport. Residence perimit for both of us is about to expire on 22nd December 2008. However it was approved on 16th December 2003. Now in prior to our marriage in 2003 I was studying a diploma course which was started in 2000.

[keshgrover]

Syou can file a form EEA1 now, and a EEA3 in a year's time

But if she has been in the UK since year 2000 (and assuming she has been exercising Treaty rights for all this time) hasn't she automatically acquired the permanent status on 30/04/06?

Many thanks tasha. But I was wondering what benefit he will be having now if i apply for PR myself first as his is due end of next year and I think if both apply together his application will get more weitage. Another thing I am worried about is documentation. Do HO required each and every signle bill for every month of this 5 year period. Because we have missed some due to relocation. But still have majourity of them with us.

[John]

Do HO required each and every signle bill for every month of this 5 year period. Because we have missed some due to relocation. But still have majourity of them with us.

Have you downloaded the forms? If so, where does it say that you need a bill for every month??????

[keshgrover]

Do HO required each and every signle bill for every month of this 5 year period. Because we have missed some due to relocation. But still have majourity of them with us.

Have you downloaded the forms? If so, where does it say that you need a bill for every month??????

I am sorry but how we are going to prove durable relationship or how we are going to prove that we have been living together for all this period?

[John]

I am at a loss to understand where these questions are coming from. Please refer me to a particular form, and a particular part of that form, so I can understand why you think these are issues?

[keshgrover]

I am at a loss to understand where these questions are coming from. Please refer me to a particular form, and a particular part of that form, so I can understand why you think these are issues?

John it says in EEA4 form as follow :

14 YOUR RIGHT TO RESIDE IN THE UK
The non-EEA national family members of an EEA national have a right to reside in the UK if their EEA national family member is exercising a Treaty right in one of the following categories:

• Worker: a person who is pursuing an effective and genuine
activity for remuneration as an employed person;
•Self-employed
•Student
•Economically self-sufficient
•Retired: a person who has been economically active; or
•Incapacitated: a person who is permanently incapacitated
and unable to pursue employment, having been economically
active.

I believe to show that he was active worker his P60 and payslips are enough but it also says on bia website that if your non-eea spouse/parner have been exercising under eea treaty with you for the continious period of 5 years. then he is eligible to apply for PR. Now how we can prove that he had been with me for 5 years continiously. (this continiously word is little bit confusing)

My further query is do we need to pass the exam for settlement aswell or not?

I was also wondering if you could kindly tell me that what is the best time for us to apply for PR. Is it 16th October 2008 which is our 5th marriage anneversary or 16th December 2008 when current residence permit is about to finish?

[John]

It was your use of the expression "durable relationship" that concerned me, given that is an expression used to show that a couple who are not married fall within the terms of the EU legislation. But the two of you are married so "durable relationship" is not in play here.

As regards the words you do quote, I think you are misinterpreting that. In order for the non-EEA person to have rights then it needs to be shown that the EEA person has been exercising their EU Treaty Rights, in one of the ways listed there.

So indeed ..... you ... in what way have you been exercising your EU Treaty Rights? Yes, you are self-employed! You tell us " I have been self-employed throughout the period and have always filed my Income Tax returns and have always paid my NI contributions as well"

Accordingly as you can shown that you have been self-employed for the relevant period, there should be no problem your husband getting the documentation he needs.

And part of what you quote, with one word emphasised by me :-

YOUR RIGHT TO RESIDE IN THE UK

Yes a right!

Just to explain this is another way ..... not your circumstances ..... EEA national ... male ..... his non-EEA national wife ..... they have lots of children .... she never goes out to work in the relevant 5-year period ..... she is still entitled to PR as long as her EEA Citizen husband has been exercising his EU Treaty Rights in some way.

Does that help?

[keshgrover]

It was your use of the expression "durable relationship" that concerned me, given that is an expression used to show that a couple who are not married fall within the terms of the EU legislation. But the two of you are married so "durable relationship" is not in play here.

As regards the words you do quote, I think you are misinterpreting that. In order for the non-EEA person to have rights then it needs to be shown that the EEA person has been exercising their EU Treaty Rights, in one of the ways listed there.

So indeed ..... you ... in what way have you been exercising your EU Treaty Rights? Yes, you are self-employed! You tell us " I have been self-employed throughout the period and have always filed my Income Tax returns and have always paid my NI contributions as well"

Accordingly as you can shown that you have been self-employed for the relevant period, there should be no problem your husband getting the documentation he needs.

And part of what you quote, with one word emphasised by me :-

YOUR RIGHT TO RESIDE IN THE UK

Yes a right!

Just to explain this is another way ..... not your circumstances ..... EEA national ... male ..... his non-EEA national wife ..... they have lots of children .... she never goes out to work in the relevant 5-year period ..... she is still entitled to PR as long as her EEA Citizen husband has been exercising his EU Treaty Rights in some way.

Does that help?

Yes! but put in this way he has quite few county court judgements because of failure of business which he tried. And companies he borrowed money from went to court and his house got repossed as well wont that effect his application? I have been active self employed so do he.

Sorry to bother you again but could you kindly please advice me that when should we apply for PR? I mean what is the right time in October or in December?

[John]

And companies he borrowed money from went to court and his house got repossed as well wont that effect his application?

No, I can't see it as an issue. It would not alter the EU rights possessed by him.

Sorry to bother you again but could you kindly please advice me that when should we apply for PR? I mean what is the right time in October or in December?

You are still not appreciating that the grant of PR is automatic. It comes with the mere passage of time. On the facts laid out by you both of you will get PR status on 16.12.08. OK, got that?

So if you want documentation proving that you have that PR status, yes applications will need to be made on forms EEA3 (by you) and on EEA4 (by your husband). But as already said, the documentation issued will be merely confirmatory. It will merely confirm that you have the PR status that you will already have.

Or put it another way, it is entirely voluntary to submit the forms EEA3 and EEA4. Up to you! If you want to, yes you could wait until mid-December next year, or you could submit a month or two earlier than that and have your cases waiting in the queue until mid-December at the earliest.

Where is all this leading? To a possible Naturalisation application? If so, the PR status will need to be held for at least one year when making that application, so 16.12.09 would be the earliest Naturalisation application date.

[keshgrover]

And companies he borrowed money from went to court and his house got repossed as well wont that effect his application?

No, I can't see it as an issue. It would not alter the EU rights possessed by him.

Sorry to bother you again but could you kindly please advice me that when should we apply for PR? I mean what is the right time in October or in December?

You are still not appreciating that the grant of PR is automatic. It comes with the mere passage of time. On the facts laid out by you both of you will get PR status on 16.12.08. OK, got that?

So if you want documentation proving that you have that PR status, yes applications will need to be made on forms EEA3 (by you) and on EEA4 (by your husband). But as already said, the documentation issued will be merely confirmatory. It will merely confirm that you have the PR status that you will already have.

Or put it another way, it is entirely voluntary to submit the forms EEA3 and EEA4. Up to you! If you want to, yes you could wait until mid-December next year, or you could submit a month or two earlier than that and have your cases waiting in the queue until mid-December at the earliest.

Where is all this leading? To a possible Naturalisation application? If so, the PR status will need to be held for at least one year when making that application, so 16.12.09 would be the earliest Naturalisation application date.

Thanks very much John, you have been really helpfull. I will be in touch with you and keep you updated with applications in future. Please do accept our wishes for the brighter and happier new year for you and your familly.

[keshgrover]

And companies he borrowed money from went to court and his house got repossed as well wont that effect his application?

No, I can't see it as an issue. It would not alter the EU rights possessed by him.

Sorry to bother you again but could you kindly please advice me that when should we apply for PR? I mean what is the right time in October or in December?

You are still not appreciating that the grant of PR is automatic. It comes with the mere passage of time. On the facts laid out by you both of you will get PR status on 16.12.08. OK, got that?

So if you want documentation proving that you have that PR status, yes applications will need to be made on forms EEA3 (by you) and on EEA4 (by your husband). But as already said, the documentation issued will be merely confirmatory. It will merely confirm that you have the PR status that you will already have.

Or put it another way, it is entirely voluntary to submit the forms EEA3 and EEA4. Up to you! If you want to, yes you could wait until mid-December next year, or you could submit a month or two earlier than that and have your cases waiting in the queue until mid-December at the earliest.

Where is all this leading? To a possible Naturalisation application? If so, the PR status will need to be held for at least one year when making that application, so 16.12.09 would be the earliest Naturalisation application date.

Sorry to bother you again John

Could you please kindly advise if my husband needs to declare county court judgements against him in regards to repossession of his house under following sections of EEA4 form

5. 2 Have you or any family members included in this application ever been charged in any country
with a criminal offence for which you have not yet been tried in court?

5. 3 In times of either peace or war have you or any family members included in this application ever Yes No
been involved, or suspected of involvement, in war crimes, crimes against humanity or
genocide?

Nature of the criminal offence or the civil action (give details on a separate sheet and enclose it with this form if you need more space)

5. 4
Have you or any family members included in this application ever been a member of, or given
support to, an organisation which has been concerned in terrorism?
Have you or any family members included in this application ever, by any means or medium,
expressed views that justify or glorify terrorist violence or that may encourage others to terrorist acts or other serious criminal acts?
Name of person convicted or against whom a civil judgment was made

Note 2 Convictions spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 need not be disclosed. More information about the Act is
given towards the end of this section.

Have you or any family members included in this application ever been involved in,
supported or encouraged terrorist activities in any country?
Yes No

5. 6
For help in answering the questions below, please see the definitions on the next page.

Date of sentence/judgment
Country where the sentence was passed or the civil judgment was made
Name of person convicted or against whom a civil judgment was made
Nature of the criminal offence or civil action (give details on separate sheet and enclose it with this form if you need more space)
Details of the sentence or civil judgment (give details on separate sheet if you need more space)

EEA4 Version 11/2007 - page 9 of 13

5. 7 Have you or any family members included in this application ever engaged in any other activities
which might indicate that you may not be considered to be persons of good character?

If you have answered yes to question 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 or 5.7 above please give further details in the space provided below. If you
need more space, continue on a separate sheet.

[John]

keshgrover, why are you currently concerned about the form EEA4? It is nearly a year away that such form needs to be completed.

You are your husband were issued with 4-year permits near the end of 2003? If so it is clearly much more relevant for you to be considering the form EEA2 for your husband to submit.

On the EEA2 form it is Section 8 that is relevant. From what you have posted, your husband has a Civil Judgement against him, so obviously that needs to be disclosed.

[keshgrover]

keshgrover, why are you currently concerned about the form EEA4? It is nearly a year away that such form needs to be completed.

You are your husband were issued with 4-year permits near the end of 2003? If so it is clearly much more relevant for you to be considering the form EEA2 for your husband to submit.

On the EEA2 form it is Section 8 that is relevant. From what you have posted, your husband has a Civil Judgement against him, so obviously that needs to be disclosed.

Firstly, We were issued with 5 years permit. Secondly would it effect his PR if we disclose the civil judgement against him. If we dont how HO would find out? If they will what are the precautions? and how it will effect my own application? sorry for being pain but hope you understand where I am coming from?

Many thanx

[JA13I]

You must disclose the sentences as is required of you and depending on the severity you may or may not be granted PR. It will all depend on the caseworker who gets to make the decision on whether the applicant is deemed as a threat to public security or not. No way someone here could know about what the verdict will be.

[John]

We are talking about a Civil Judgment, so use of the word "sentence" is not appropriate. But yes, details of the judgment do need to be disclosed.

Highly unlikely that a Civil Judgment would cause someone to be considered a threat to public security.

[JA13I]

Sorry John, you are right. I only had a quick read and admittedly did not go through the whole post. I do concur that this should not be an obstacle to the PR.

[keshgrover]

We are talking about a Civil Judgment, so use of the word "sentence" is not appropriate. But yes, details of the judgment do need to be disclosed.

Highly unlikely that a Civil Judgment would cause someone to be considered a threat to public security.

Thanks John, I think you are right. I have gone through BIA website and read what needed to be disclose and how it will effect. I believe there should not be a problem for him to get PR. Once again many thanks.