Irish/British - what now

[jenm]

Hi,
I thought this was going to be an easy run but I've just discovered the dual nationality issues with EEA visas.
The History:
I'm Irish (republic) born with a British father. I spent most of my life living in a non EEA country. I've been married to a non EEA national for nearly 15 years. We have previously lived together in the UK for a period just short of 5 years (2002 - 2006) along with my 2 step children over whom my husband has primary residence. At this time I only had an Irish passport and they had a stamp in their nonEEA passports with wording to the effect of "right to remain based on 'myname' exercising treaty rights"
We left UK due to his family commitments.
I got a British passport a few years ago as my Irish one was proving near on impossible to renew in the nonEEA country we were in. (I could kick myself in hindsight)
Present:
I moved back to the UK in July 2015 to ensure our daughter was in time to start her secondary education here. Husband and stepkids were due to follow after he'd finished with some work projects he was busy with - we assumed coming in on the same visa method as before.
Upon research we discovered that EEA was free vs coming in on my British passport at stupid costs, so my Irish passport is in for renewal.
Just as we're coming to an end with that, I now spot the Irish/British dual nationality issues. aaaaargh

My husband has a NI number, a pension in excess of GBP20,000 held in the UK and I have a full time job which meets all the British visa requirements it's just so expensive and also won't allow my stepchild in as he is over 18 (just barely)
Now what?
I think I'm going to have to renounce British citizenship and then attempt the EEA visa.
Can my husband / stepkids come in to the UK on a standard British Visitor Visa (which is issued for 6months and excludes working etc) which means they can be here for at least some of the period I wait for the renouncement of British to come through? And then apply for EEA2? Can they apply for EEA2 without previously holding a EEA family visa (6months).
If not, can they visit on a British Visitor Visa, go back to nonEEA country then apply for EEA family visa and return almost immediately?
I haven't seen my family for the better part of year and we thought this was nearly over... now it seems like we're actually only starting the difficult part now.
I'm rambling now - thanks for reading that epic post

[Noetic]

I'd definitely wait until after the referendum results are in before applying to renounce your citizenship...

[noajthan]

Hi,
I thought this was going to be an easy run but I've just discovered the dual nationality issues with EEA visas.

...

Now what?
I think I'm going to have to renounce British citizenship and then attempt the EEA visa.
Can my husband / stepkids come in to the UK on a standard British Visitor Visa (which is issued for 6months and excludes working etc) which means they can be here for at least some of the period I wait for the renouncement of British to come through? And then apply for EEA2? Can they apply for EEA2 without previously holding a EEA family visa (6months).
If not, can they visit on a British Visitor Visa, go back to nonEEA country then apply for EEA family visa and return almost immediately?
I haven't seen my family for the better part of year and we thought this was nearly over... now it seems like we're actually only starting the difficult part now.
I'm rambling now - thanks for reading that epic post

It may be tricky to get visit visas and come in as 'visitors' to, in effect, reside with a spouse who has evidently returned to settle in Blighty. (A visit visa is not for residence - and they're not guaranteed to be issued).

If family gets UK visit visas and anything goes wrong when transferring to an EU migration trajectory its not clear how that would be held on their UK immigration histories.
For example, if you're not recognised as exercising treaty rights (or ??) then the optional RCs won't be issued.

It may mean that future UK visas, almost certainly visit visas, would be ruled out due to the 'extension' and failure to leave UK under the terms of that UK visa.
Not sure. Suggest you dig into that question.

If they can enter the country they can apply for RCs once you are a pure EEA citizen and exercising treaty rights.
A FP is not a mandatory prerequisite.

But if you are risk-averse then taking the FP approach first (even incurring further delay) would certainly be 'better' in the long run than risking the visit visa approach.

Thinking out of the box here, how does relocating back to Eire shape up? (domestic Irish route obviously).

[jenm]

I'd definitely wait until after the referendum results are in before applying to renounce your citizenship...

This worries me too - but I was kind of hoping that the Irish agreements which existed before EU stuff would make it OK to still be resident in the UK on my Irish passport. Do you think this may not be the case if there were to be a brexit? I know so much of the brexit is hypothetical.

It may be tricky to get visit visas and come in as 'visitors' to, in effect, reside with a spouse who has evidently returned to settle in Blighty. (A visit visa is not for residence - and they're not guaranteed to be issued).

If family gets UK visit visas and anything goes wrong when transferring to an EU migration trajectory its not clear how that would be held on their UK immigration histories.
For example, if you're not recognised as exercising treaty rights (or ??) then the optional RCs won't be issued.

It may mean that future UK visas, almost certainly visit visas, would be ruled out due to the 'extension' and failure to leave UK under the terms of that UK visa.
Not sure. Suggest you dig into that question.

If they can enter the country they can apply for RCs once you are a pure EEA citizen and exercising treaty rights.
A FP is not a mandatory prerequisite.

But if you are risk-averse then taking the FP approach first (even incurring further delay) would certainly be 'better' in the long run than risking the visit visa approach.

Thinking out of the box here, how does relocating back to Eire shape up? (domestic Irish route obviously).

I hadn't considered a relocation to Eire, my entire family are in the UK, child in school / good job etc etc so not something I'd like to do ideally.
Glad to hear that FP's are not a mandatory requirement to RC. So, in theory, as long as the family enter the UK legally, and only remain in the UK within the bounds of that legal entry (ie not overstay the 6 months and not work etc) they could apply for RC's on my pure EEA citizen rights?

[noajthan]

I hadn't considered a relocation to Eire...

...

Glad to hear that FP's are not a mandatory requirement to RC. So, in theory, as long as the family enter the UK legally, and only remain in the UK within the bounds of that legal entry (ie not overstay the 6 months and not work etc) they could apply for RC's on my pure EEA citizen rights?

You can expect the unexpected from ImmigrationBoards.

You are assuming
a) whole family are granted visit visas to join spouse/mom in UK - this is not a given;
b) you become a sole national exercising treaty rights (in UK) - assuming no Brexit and both paperwork gets sorted (& you get a job?) in time, etc;
c) optional RC applications for spouse & family progress to plan based on b)

The concern is if anything goes wrong in the above sequence you risk having a family of overstayers stranded in UK who have breached the terms of their visit visas.

[jenm]

You can expect the unexpected from ImmigrationBoards.

You are assuming
a) whole family are granted visit visas to join spouse/mom in UK - this is not a given;
b) you become a sole national exercising treaty rights;
c) optional RC applications for spouse & family progress to plan based on b)

The concern is anything goes wrong in the above sequence you risk having a family of overstayers stranded in UK who have breached the terms of their visit visas.

Oh of course - I realise that there are all those dependencies. I'm just trying to get my head around what the options might be.

[noajthan]

Oh of course - I realise that there are all those dependencies. I'm just trying to get my head around what the options might be.

Safest route is family come into UK on FPs; (family may not even be granted visit visas due to perceived risk of overstay).

[jenm]

Oh of course - I realise that there are all those dependencies. I'm just trying to get my head around what the options might be.

Safest route is family come into UK on FPs; (family may not even be granted visit visas due to perceived risk of overstay).

I'm thinking that too. Might just have to spend the ticket money and go visit them instead.

I've scrolled through older messages trying to get an idea on how long it's taking to renounce British citizenship - but my stomach is churning and I can barely read and think straight.
Is it still looking like it's taking around the 6 month mark to get it done?

Thanks for replying all - I'm sure you've seen these kinds of anxious messages countless times. I do appreciate that you've replied

[noajthan]

I'm thinking that too. Might just have to spend the ticket money and go visit them instead.

I've scrolled through older messages trying to get an idea on how long it's taking to renounce British citizenship - but my stomach is churning and I can barely read and think straight.
Is it still looking like it's taking around the 6 month mark to get it done?

Thanks for replying all - I'm sure you've seen these kinds of anxious messages countless times. I do appreciate that you've replied

Yes it is challenging but you were fortunate to become aware of the pitfalls before you made the final leap.
Others have been less fortunate and, in some cases, have 'disenfranchised' their family members (purely in innocence and by accident).

Renouncing BC is a specialist topic.
Stand by for appropriate member to come online and advise on that aspect of your plan.

[Petaltop]

This worries me too - but I was kind of hoping that the Irish agreements which existed before EU stuff would make it OK to still be resident in the UK on my Irish passport.

That UK/Irish agreement allowed Irish citizens to live in the UK, but your family are not Irish citizens. They would have needed to come to the UK under UK immigration rules, the same as a British citizen. i.e a UK spouse visa and visas for children under age 18 who are not British or Irish.

[secret.simon]

Not the specialist member that noajthan suggested would take the point forward, but have you been through the thread on renouncing British citizenship to use Irish citizenship for EU law purposes? User Chaoclive has been through the process and may pop by to advise further if he logs in.

Just to follow up on what PetalTop mentioned. In the event of a Brexit, Irish citizens could of course fall back on older UK law that treats Irish citizens as settled on arrival. But that only applies to the Irish citizen themself. And crucially, it means that you would be treated the same as a British citizen, i.e. you are back to square leg one.

If there is a Brexit, you will have to choose between a family life outside the UK or having to bring your family in through the UK Immigration Rules, whether as a British or and Irish citizen settled in the UK. If there is a Brexit, EU laws most likely won't apply to your family.

[jenm]

Thanks for clarifying the previous Irish laws PetalTop and secret.simon. I guess I will just have to wait patiently until after 23 June to see the outcome and take things from there. (Easier said than done)
secret.simon I have looked through the board you referenced but it was long and it was at around 3am this morning and I was chasing my tail in circles cross referencing other information.(can you tell I'm a worrier?) I think I'll read it again.

[Richard W]

Just to follow up on what PetalTop mentioned. In the event of a Brexit, Irish citizens could of course fall back on older UK law that treats Irish citizens as settled on arrival. But that only applies to the Irish citizen themself. And crucially, it means that you would be treated the same as a British citizen, i.e. you are back to square leg one.

In the case of Bremain, there will be a period of uncertainty as to whether your family would be allowed in under freedom of movement if you were only Irish. The most authoritative central guestimate I have seen is that the new laws would take 6 months to take effect - this is as long as it takes to renounce British citizenship. (There's also a view that the changes won't happen.) I know your family have been lawfully resident in the UK, but the devil is in the detail, and the family application would fall foul of the pre-Metock EEA Regulations (e.g. original 2006 version) if they were re-instated. Weirdly, turning up at the border with documentation would work under the same version of the regulations - unless I'm misinterpreting Regulation 11(4)(b)

However, in the event of Brexit, how long would the freedom of movement directive stand in the UK? As it takes 2 years to leave without agreeing terms, it is perversely possible that Brexit would be the best outcome for the OP! All in all, it seems to me that the best way to use the Irish route is to renounce British citizenship now and hope that the renunciation is accepted before the rules change.

[Noetic]

Is settlement in Ireland an option even with the Irish passport? Then Surinder Singh may be an option should UK not have opted for Brexit. I seem to recall EU laws consider up to 21 to be automatically dependent so the 18yo stepson may be ok?

[noajthan]

Is settlement in Ireland an option even with the Irish passport? Then Surinder Singh may be an option should UK not have opted for Brexit. I seem to recall EU laws consider up to 21 to be automatically dependent so the 18yo stepson may be ok?

Do you mean if Eire will treat one of their own as an EEA national by virtue of the British passport?
I see where you're coming from. Maybe something in that.
(I had only suggested it as an option based on the domestic law of the State).

[Noetic]

Do you mean if Eire will treat one of their own as an EEA national by virtue of the British passport?
I see where you're coming from. Maybe something in that.
(I had only suggested it as an option based on the domestic law of the State).

That or frankly in the current climate if OP has connections with her home country and can find work there, it may be worth looking into settling in Ireland with her family (even if under IE immigration rules but I don't know how Ireland treats dual EEA and Irish citizens regarding EEA family permits etc). Maybe sit out the Brexit storm over there and assess the situation when the dust has settled - at least the family will be together.