How do u confirm british citizenship if person has died ?

[SHAZZY]

Hi,
If a person born in Zimbabwe in 1953 but left there in 1961 with both parents - on his mothers passport (both parents british born) He was in possession of own passport until it expired and never renewed it (had no money to travel so sed he would do it when necessary!) Had settled in South Africa around 1962 after 6 months in New Zealand. Later became a permanent resident but never held a SA passport, was not eligible for conscription or voting and as far as we know, never gave up his british passport willingly and married a SA national. He died in 1990. Old passport misplaced (?!) long ago.. but have his birth cert and his fathers birth cert - parents were married to each other at the time of his birth.

Question how does one go about establishing validity, if any, of his original passport.
Point of the question is to establish his nationality status at the time of his death - british in his own right or by descent.
Your direction will be most appreciated

[John]

It looks as if he was British, but being born outside the UK, he would have been "British by descent".

So if the purpose of all this is to establish whether his children are British, well clearly that is not going to be the case, unless those children were born in the UK.

Had he been born in the UK rather than Zimbabwe, then his children might well have been British, wherever born.

[JAJ]

Hi,
If a person born in Zimbabwe in 1953 but left there in 1961 with both parents - on his mothers passport (both parents british born) He was in possession of own passport until it expired and never renewed it (had no money to travel so sed he would do it when necessary!) Had settled in South Africa around 1962 after 6 months in New Zealand. Later became a permanent resident but never held a SA passport, was not eligible for conscription or voting and as far as we know, never gave up his british passport willingly and married a SA national. He died in 1990. Old passport misplaced (?!) long ago.. but have his birth cert and his fathers birth cert - parents were married to each other at the time of his birth.

Question how does one go about establishing validity, if any, of his original passport.
Point of the question is to establish his nationality status at the time of his death - british in his own right or by descent.
Your direction will be most appreciated

British by descent, it appears, so it won't necessarily help you unless you were registered as a UK citizen within 12 months of your birth (pre-1983).

If you are interested in migration to the U.K. and you are South African citizens, have you looked into the Ancestry Visa?

[SHAZZY]

So having a british passport of his own, which may or may not (how to establish?? - this is the nub of my question) have had Right of abode stamped in it. - if this was the case would it not then amount to being bitish in his own right - the expiry date that I mention is the date of the passport ie 10yr or 5 yr passport - and we remember that this passport was valid well past his 21st birthday!!
Ancestral visas are in force and have been half way met time wise - so not long to go - tho of course, less time to do would certainly be an advantage
The question is really about his citizenship - by the way, his british born father was in the employ of the BSAP CID - were they not Crown employees in a colony. Starts to get beyond me here with all the categories

We really would like to know where we can check (if any records are kept ie governor general records in Zim or British overseas records - is there no central place in the UK that would have these details of citizenship and right of abode records for overseas nationals) or is it the case that if u didnt renew u just started the whole process of application again !

Any suggestions ?

[JAJ]

So having a british passport of his own, which may or may not (how to establish?? - this is the nub of my question) have had Right of abode stamped in it. - if this was the case would it not then amount to being bitish in his own right - the expiry date that I mention is the date of the passport ie 10yr or 5 yr passport - and we remember that this passport was valid well past his 21st birthday!!
Ancestral visas are in force and have been half way met time wise - so not long to go - tho of course, less time to do would certainly be an advantage
The question is really about his citizenship - by the way, his british born father was in the employ of the BSAP CID - were they not Crown employees in a colony. Starts to get beyond me here with all the categories

We really would like to know where we can check (if any records are kept ie governor general records in Zim or British overseas records - is there no central place in the UK that would have these details of citizenship and right of abode records for overseas nationals) or is it the case that if u didnt renew u just started the whole process of application again !

There is no central register of British citizens, other than those who have acquired citizenship by naturalisation/registration and/or been issued with a British passport.

The following is evidence of your father's British citizenship:

- his (long form) birth certificate
- birth certificate of his father (born in U.K.) + mother
- their marriage certificate.

However, once again, proving your father was British doesn't generally help you because he was British "by descent" and hence his British citizenship did not automatically pass on to you.

UNLESS he was in Crown Service under the U.K. government. What is "BSAP CID"?

[SHAZZY]

Hi,
Thanks for replying -
BSAP - was the British South Africa Police - CID - they were originally set up by Royal Charter form Queen Victoria - hence my question of Crown or government employ - as they may well be records in that case.

So lets accept that he would have been british by decent no matter what ie living in SA, Immigration Act of 1983, etc simply because his married parents were born in the UK as mentioned his fathers birth cert and my fathers birth cert is in our pocession. Why would we need his mothers birth cert - can understand the marriage cert of his parents - but can obtain both.

Would his wife/widow be allowed to apply for a UK citizenship (or any visa type) under his british passport - and if so,what would u have to do ?
Would this be possible?
and if this was possible would there be a restriction if he had had two wives (not at the same time!) to the widow only ?

Again, your suggestions please

[JAJ]

Hi,
Thanks for replying -
BSAP - was the British South Africa Police - CID - they were originally set up by Royal Charter form Queen Victoria - hence my question of Crown or government employ - as they may well be records in that case.

British South Africa Police was part of the government of Southern Rhodesia (techically a colony but treated as a Dominion for nationality purposes). I cannot see how it would could as U.K. Crown Service.

So lets accept that he would have been british by decent no matter what ie living in SA, Immigration Act of 1983, etc simply because his married parents were born in the UK as mentioned his fathers birth cert and my fathers birth cert is in our pocession. Why would we need his mothers birth cert - can understand the marriage cert of his parents - but can obtain both.

Would his wife/widow be allowed to apply for a UK citizenship (or any visa type) under his british passport - and if so,what would u have to do ?
Would this be possible?
and if this was possible would there be a restriction if he had had two wives (not at the same time!) to the widow only ?

He clearly was British by descent so once again, it would not have helped any of you unless he made the effort to register you as U.K. citizens within 12 months of your birth in South Africa.

Look at the Ancestry Visa for an option to move to the U.K.

Or alternatively - by any chance were any of your British grandparents born in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?

What is the nationality of his wife/widow (s)? And when did they get married?

[SHAZZY]

Hi JAJ,

Thanks ever so much for your info so far -

Yes, not registering us as UK citizens at the time of our birth was a big mistake - but that is life !
As far as we know our grandmother was born in Manchester and our grandfather is a cockney - born in Londons east end.
No Irish there as far as we know - not sure of any further back!

First wife - SAer, (married in 1975 - married for 13 years - she is from 1820 Settlers (british) stock only, for 6 generations - of no relevance tho as location location is what counts!)
His second wife (also a SAer) and he, were married in 1989 for 17 months, before he was killed.

Look forward to your comments ?l

[JAJ]

Hi JAJ,

Thanks ever so much for your info so far -

Yes, not registering us as UK citizens at the time of our birth was a big mistake - but that is life !
As far as we know our grandmother was born in Manchester and our grandfather is a cockney - born in Londons east end.
No Irish there as far as we know - not sure of any further back!

First wife - SAer, (married in 1975 - married for 13 years - she is from 1820 Settlers (british) stock only, for 6 generations - of no relevance tho as location location is what counts!)
His second wife (also a SAer) and he, were married in 1989 for 17 months, before he was killed.

I cannot see anything within the Immigration Rules for the second wife.

As for the first wife, she would have held Right of Abode (marriage before 1983) if she had been Australian, Canadian, NZ etc but because South Africa was a foreign country immediately before 1.1.83 she misses out.

But are you sure she never applied for U.K. citizenship under section 6(2) of the British Nationality Act 1948? [citizenship by marriage, which was available at the time]

For all of you - ie, the grandchildren - I see nothing better than the Ancestry Visa (which is better than nothing).

[SHAZZY]

Hi JAJ,

Thank you for all your advice so far - it is very much appreciated !

Yes it is a real dissapointment considering our family, since my fathers death consists only of my mom and us two kids and the access to a Ancestral visa is all my father left us - but it excludes our mother who on her own with no support , brought us up and now we have to leave her on her own.
But we will check and find out whether they ever applied for UK citizenship for my mom. As we sed previously, she is probably, dna wise, more English than us !! As her genepool is NOTHING but original british settler families (all well recorded) who arriving in SA by ship in the 1820's (not to many choices so they tended to marry into each others families !)

Again I wish to thank u for being so helpful even if the outcome does not look very positive on the family front. We are more than half way thru the time needed in order to apply for ILR.

Cheers,

[SHAZZY]

Hi again,

Have done some reading ie Acts of 1948, 1971 and 1983 - a bit confusing -
and have since found out that my father seems to have had the right of Abode as he was registered at birth with the High commissioner in Zim as was his brother who travels on a british passport therefore a british citizen or did the Act of 1983 take away that right of abode unless he registered his wilingness to keep his british citizenship before 1983 ?

So, lets say that he also may have had access to Zim citzenship because of land of birth (tho not acquired as far as we know ?!) Zim was a commonwealth country upto 1979/80 - would she not be able to claim Zim citizen by marriage to him (recognised for its commonwealth status by britain as no changes in Act - marriage to a person with a right of abode/CUKC acknowledged in the 1948 Act and the 1971 Act ) or would this make seeking british citizenship void. A bit confused here

If she or he didnt claim UK citizenship (still trying to establish this) before the 1983 Act because I dont think they had any clue that they could or think that they wouldve had to, considering his right of abode status - would she then be barred from this route now ?
even tho he died in 1990 and she is the only other member left of our family ! - our family would then be splitup.

Again we are Ok and doing our Ancestral time for ILR its our mother we are concerned about.
Your suggestions, please

[JAJ]

Your father, when he was born in 1953, was a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) by descent under section 5 of the British Nationality Act 1948.

This is because his father was U.K. born and his parents were married.

Registration at the British High Commission was irrelevant to his acquisition of CUKC under the law because his own father was U.K. born. In any case, it most likely would not have been possible to do such registration as in 1953, Southern Rhodesia was not a "foreign country".

Right of Abode (ROA) did not exist at the time. When it came into existence, on 1 January 1973, he acquired under section 2(1)(b) of the Immigration Act 1971.

And on 1 January 1983, as a CUKC by descent with ROA under this section of the 1971 Act, and not having been born to parents in U.K. Crown Service, he automatically became a British citizen by descent.

Your father also (most probably) was a Southern Rhodesia citizen when he was born. You would need to find a copy of the Southern Rhodesia Citizenship and British Nationality Act 1949 (in force from 1 January 1950) but it wouldn't make any difference to whether or not he was British.

What you need to understand in all of this is that your father's U.K./British citizenship was automatic. He did not need to do anything specific to "claim" it.

However his first wife had to make an application to become British under section 6(2) of the 1948 Act and if she did not do so, then the opportunity is closed.

If you wish to sponsor your mother for immigration to the U.K. after you get your ILR/British citizenship then you need to look at http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk but be warned that it's not particularly easy for parents.

For nationality purposes, incidentally, Zimbabwe is still treated as a Commonwealth country even though it is one no longer. This still allows access to the Ancestry Visa and Right of Abode for some Zimbabweans.

[SHAZZY]

Hiya,

Thanks for a very to the point reply - much appreciated

My mum cant remember if she ever made any application - would it have been made by her and not possibly by my dad - she would have just signed - Is there anyway of checking ??

And if not registered and 'the book being closed' - is this the end of it - no appeals no precedents no exceptions !

Just seems a bit unfair as my Dad had his UK citizenship and never changed it - no question - and he was married to my mother, who could have registered/applied (according to the rules under the Act of 1948 and 71) but may have been totally unaware that this rule that made the changes in 1983, applied to her citizenship rights as well.

Looking at some of the changes made in the new Imm Act to include all kinds - people with only one british parent born outside of the country to parents not married etc - u would think that being the wife of a UK citizen married for 13years would make u automatically allowed u to apply for UK citizenship even if u had to apply the rules of living here for 3 or 5 years ie Leave to Remain or ILR.

Would my fathers Southern Rhodesian citizenship make any difference to my mums chances?

I spose I wont hold my breath on the 'closed book' remaining closed !! But would be interested in your reply

Thanks again

[darlingdear]

I have a similar situation and was hoping that there would be a way to check if my grandparents had made my mother a British Citizen when she was a child?

My Grandparents and my Uncles were all born in the UK, but my mother was born during a two year time in Canada. They then returned to the UK when she was 2 and lived there for 3 years before moving many other places. They returned back to the UK again when she was 10 and lived there for 2 years. My mother never had a British Passport, and doesn't know if her parents officially made her a British Citizen. If they had, my life and hers would be much simpler.

Is there any way to check? My grandparents are deceased and all their paperwork was lost in a fire.