EEA family visa given then denied

[lesley701]

[quote="benifa"][quote="yankeegirl"][quote]Since the Treaty right being exercised is self-sufficiency, the OP needs to provide evidence that she has not been relient on the social assistance system in Ireland, and will not when in the UK. The husband's employment in Ireland and job offer in the UK is, as far as I can see, as clear evidence as is necessary.[/quote]

I'm confused. I thought in order to use the Singh route, the British citizen that had to be exercising an economic Treaty right, ie: working

[quote]21.4.8 Non-EEA Family Members of British Nationals (Surinder Singh cases)
A British national and his/her non-EEA family members can only benefit from free movement rights if they meet the criteria established in the ECJ case of Surinder Singh. The case stated that nationals of a Member State who are exercising an economic Treaty right (i.e as a worker or self-employed person) in another Member State will, on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law.[/quote]

[quote]Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

* The British citizen is residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or was doing so before returning to the UK. [/quote]

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... ur%20eight

Maybe I'm missing something?[/quote]

No yankeegirl, I think [b]I[/b] missed something! I'm sorry. I was not aware of this condition. :oops:

Apologies lesley701, perhaps the British embassy's rejection of your husband's EEA Family Permit application [i]is[/i] valid.

Unless, of course, you [i]are[/i] or [i]have been[/i] in employment?[/quote]





No, I am not nor have I been working except for 2 weeks before christmas for holiday money.

[lesley701]

[quote="benifa"][quote="yankeegirl"][quote]Since the Treaty right being exercised is self-sufficiency, the OP needs to provide evidence that she has not been relient on the social assistance system in Ireland, and will not when in the UK. The husband's employment in Ireland and job offer in the UK is, as far as I can see, as clear evidence as is necessary.[/quote]

I'm confused. I thought in order to use the Singh route, the British citizen that had to be exercising an economic Treaty right, ie: working

[quote]21.4.8 Non-EEA Family Members of British Nationals (Surinder Singh cases)
A British national and his/her non-EEA family members can only benefit from free movement rights if they meet the criteria established in the ECJ case of Surinder Singh. The case stated that nationals of a Member State who are exercising an economic Treaty right (i.e as a worker or self-employed person) in another Member State will, on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law.[/quote]

[quote]Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

* The British citizen is residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or was doing so before returning to the UK. [/quote]

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... ur%20eight

Maybe I'm missing something?[/quote]

No yankeegirl, I think [b]I[/b] missed something! I'm sorry. I was not aware of this condition. :oops:

Apologies lesley701, perhaps the British embassy's rejection of your husband's EEA Family Permit application [i]is[/i] valid.

Unless, of course, you [i]are[/i] or [i]have been[/i] in employment?[/quote]





No, I am not nor have I been working except for 2 weeks before christmas for holiday money.

[Ben]

Then it becomes more tricky for you.

Firstly, I'm sorry that I mis-advised you earlier. I was not aware of the conditions of the Surinder Singh ruling that yankeegirl pointed out.

It would appear that you and your family do not, in fact, qualify for entry into the UK using EU legislation, and you may have to follow UK national legislation instead.

Alternatively, would you consider getting a job? I know that being a homemaker is already a full time responsibility, but if you could do even a part time job, just until you leave Ireland, you would exercising EU Treaty rights in an economic capacity.

[lesley701]

[quote="benifa"]Then it becomes more tricky for you.

Firstly, I'm sorry that I mis-advised you earlier. I was not aware of the conditions of the Surinder Singh ruling that yankeegirl pointed out.

It would appear that you and your family do not, in fact, qualify for entry into the UK using EU legislation, and you may have to follow UK national legislation instead.

Alternatively, would you consider getting a job? I know that being a homemaker is already a full time responsibility, but if you could do even a part time job, just until you leave Ireland, you would exercising EU Treaty rights in an economic capacity.[/quote]




Does the fact that I worked for the short time in December count?

Also they did mention that the ' Surinder Singh ruling' was the basis of thier decision.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The Surinder Singh court case assumed the EU citizen was exercising treaty rights from Article 48 or 52, namely working or self employed. In this case the people making the decision are either not aware of that, or they are aware of it and believe the case law implications are in fact more expansive than the direct court decision.

In any case, they are clearly treating this application on the basis of EU law, and so there is no reason to question that unless you do not want to use EU law for your entry into the UK.

Does the fact that I worked for the short time in December count?

Also they did mention that the 'Surinder Singh ruling' was the basis of their decision.

Yes, that you worked in December could be very important in case you have any problem with your current application. Do you have pay slips or a contract for your work? If not, I would suggest you get a letter from your employer detailing the hours you worked and when (you could even write it for their signature). You should then submit this as evidence of your exercise of treaty rights. You do not need to be working full time to be exercising treaty rights (there is another ECJ court case which made this clear).

Leaving out all the fluff from their refusal letter, what exactly did that say? I am interested in general but also specifically about (1) Surinder Singh and (2) how much resources you need to have?

[lesley701]

[quote="Directive/2004/38/EC"]The Surinder Singh court case assumed the EU citizen was exercising treaty rights from Article 48 or 52, namely working or self employed. In this case the people making the decision are either not aware of that, [b]or [/b]they are aware of it and believe the case law implications are in fact more expansive than the direct court decision.

In any case, they are clearly treating this application on the basis of EU law, and so there is no reason to question that unless you do not want to use EU law for your entry into the UK.

[quote]Does the fact that I worked for the short time in December count?

Also they did mention that the 'Surinder Singh ruling' was the basis of their decision.[/quote]
Yes, that you worked in December could be very important in case you have any problem with your current application. Do you have pay slips or a contract for your work? If not, I would suggest you get a letter from your employer detailing the hours you worked and when (you could even write it for their signature). You should then submit this as evidence of your exercise of treaty rights. You do not need to be working full time to be exercising treaty rights (there is another ECJ court case which made this clear).

Leaving out all the fluff from their refusal letter, what [u]exactly[/u] did that say? I am interested in general but also specifically about (1) Surinder Singh and (2) how much resources you need to have?[/quote]



This is from the letter...

,I am not satisfied that you meet all of the requirements fo Rugulation 9 of the Immigration (european Econonmic Area) regulations 2006.,
,You have applied by virtue of European Community Law as the family member of a British national who has been / was previosly working or self employed in another Member State . No evidence has been supplied.'

'I acknowledge that you were previously issued an EEA family permit to settle in the UK in August 07, however I am not satisfied your wife is a qualifited person under the EEA regulations

no evidence has been supplied that your wife has been residing in Ireland as a worker or self employed person.

You have shown no evidence th show your wife has sufficient resourses not to become a burden on the social assistance system during the period of residence in the UK

In light of the above, I am therefore not satisfied your wife is a qualified
person.

re the Surinder Singh case, it was highlited on a seperate sheet of paper headed , Entry Clearance Guidance Volume 1
Chapter 21
The European dimension
21.4.9
Non-EEA family Members of British Nationals (Surinder Singh cases)
hope this helps.
please forgive my spelling, I,m typing this in a hurry.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thank you for providing the actual words. It makes a big difference, though it is not good news.

They have said that EU citizen has not provided evidence that she has been residing in Ireland as a worker or self employed. I suspect this is the main reason they have rejected the application.

This tells me that they do not feel you fit the requirements of Singh ruling since you were not working.

You said you were working at christmas, and it is definitely worth submitting evidence of your work. It may or may not be enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of ... or_workers
Time commitment. The right of free movement applies to both part-time and full-time work, so long as the work is effective and genuine and not of such small scale, irregular nature or limited duration to be purely marginal and ancillary.

I am baffled as to why they also mention not showing sufficient resources. In the original letter, is the rejection list because of “no workingâ€

[lesley701]

[quote="Directive/2004/38/EC"]Thank you for providing the actual words. It makes a big difference, though it is not good news.

They have said that EU citizen has not provided evidence that she has been residing in Ireland as a worker or self employed. I suspect this is the main reason they have rejected the application.

This tells me that they do not feel you fit the requirements of Singh ruling since you were not working.

You said you were working at christmas, and it is definitely worth submitting evidence of your work. It may or may not be enough. [quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of ... or_workers
Time commitment. The right of free movement applies to both part-time and full-time work, so long as the work is effective and genuine and not of such small scale, irregular nature or limited duration to be purely marginal and ancillary. [/quote]

I am baffled as to why they also mention not showing sufficient resources. In the original letter, is the rejection list because of “no workingâ€

[yankeegirl]

I'm so glad it worked out! Best of luck.

[Ben]

Great news everyone, resubmited , a couple of phone calls from them and we have the family permit.

He added aditional info regarding the fact that I am a stay at home mom and also that for the whole time here we have never asked for any financial assistance, we also included further documentation, in fact just about everything we could lay our hands on, ie. tax statements, letters from the boys school here, etc. and I had my original nhs number from the UK. and my paye from here for the short time I did work.
They did call him and asked why he didnt use the previouse permit and he explained about the hiring freeze the company had for 6 months.
We also included our flight tickets which is for me and the boys tomorrow and he is coming on Friday. We stressed the urgency about this as he has to start in the UK this coming monday, we also included fees paid etc. for the house we are renting and the address and names addresses and phone numbers for my family members over there which are a lot.

His passport is ready for collection tomorrow.

Thank you everybody for all of your input.

Lesley

That's great news, Lesley! I'm really happy for you, and thanks so much for coming back with the update.

Not that we'll probably ever know for sure, but I wonder, was their decision to grant the EEA Family Permit for your husband based on your exceptional circumstances? Such as, your husband's imminent job start, your flights that are pre-booked, your house rental already paid, the fact that you're a British citizen returning home, the fact that they'd already issued an EEA Family Permit once for your husband (and relatively recently)..

It's just that, as yankeegirl pointed out, you have not been exercising an "economic" EU Treaty right in Ireland and, as such, do not meet the requirements associated with the Surinder Singh ruling, in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC.

I know that you did work in Ireland, briefly, but this cannot be seen as having been your main reason for residence in Ireland and employment certainly wasn't the Treaty right being exercised at the time of application of your husband's EEA Family Permit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm over the moon for you that you've got this excellent news.. I'm just curious as to the exact reasoning behind their approval.

[lesley701]

[quote="benifa"][quote="lesley701"]Great news everyone, resubmited , a couple of phone calls from them and we have the family permit.

He added aditional info regarding the fact that I am a stay at home mom and also that for the whole time here we have never asked for any financial assistance, we also included further documentation, in fact just about everything we could lay our hands on, ie. tax statements, letters from the boys school here, etc. and I had my original nhs number from the UK. and my paye from here for the short time I did work.
They did call him and asked why he didnt use the previouse permit and he explained about the hiring freeze the company had for 6 months.
We also included our flight tickets which is for me and the boys tomorrow and he is coming on Friday. We stressed the urgency about this as he has to start in the UK this coming monday, we also included fees paid etc. for the house we are renting and the address and names addresses and phone numbers for my family members over there which are a lot.

His passport is ready for collection tomorrow.

Thank you everybody for all of your input.

Lesley[/quote]

That's great news, Lesley! :D I'm really happy for you, and thanks so much for coming back with the update.

Not that we'll probably ever know for sure, but I wonder, was their decision to grant the EEA Family Permit for your husband based on your exceptional circumstances? Such as, your husband's imminent job start, your flights that are pre-booked, your house rental already paid, the fact that you're a British citizen returning home, the fact that they'd already issued an EEA Family Permit once for your husband (and relatively recently)..

It's just that, as yankeegirl pointed out, you have not been exercising an "economic" EU Treaty right in Ireland and, as such, do not meet the requirements associated with the Surinder Singh ruling, in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC.

I know that you did work in Ireland, briefly, but this cannot be seen as having been your main reason for residence in Ireland and employment certainly wasn't the Treaty right being exercised at the time of application of your husband's EEA Family Permit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm over the moon for you that you've got this excellent news.. I'm just curious as to the exact reasoning behind their approval.[/quote]



I think all of the above, I was just so determind after getting the permit once I just couldnt understand how they could refuse again also, we did notice that he had me down as self sufficiant on the last application, which he thought meant that I didnt need any financial help from the government(its an american thing), this time I was down as unemployed with voluntary retirment.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What is nice is how quickly the British embassy has turned around the application. It shows that an embassy can move quickly if they put their mind to it.

Congrats on getting that out of the way. And thanks for sharing your problem. (I agree that I still do not understand how Singh applies here, but I am glad it is resolved).