France: Non-EEA spouse moving with EEA citizen

[iceland]

I am a dual American and Icelandic citizen, and Iceland is a member of the EEA. My husband is a non-EEA citizen, and while we are currently living in Iceland (he has a residence permit here), we plan to return to the US in the near future.

My question is, after we have lived in the US for several years, we want to know if it's possible for us to move to France together in the distant future.

That is, does my husband need to obtain an Icelandic passport in order to have the same rights that I do, when we move to France? Or can he move to France along with me, even as a non-EEA citizen? Would we both need to get residence and/or work permits in France?

We are currently planning to live in Iceland for 3 years, in order for him to obtain the Icelandic passport so that we can live in France in the future. But if it's not necessary for us to stay this long, we'd like to return to the US sooner rather than later! (3 years in Iceland is a long time.)

I'm also concerned about what would happen to his rights in France if something happened to me (e.g. I died, we divorced, etc), if he were not an EEA citizen. Would he have to leave the country, if his status were dependent on mine?

Thanks for your help, all.

[sakura]

As the immediate family member of an EEA citizen, your husband can live and work freely in any EU/EEA country that he travels to with you. So, if you were to move to France now, he would be able to join you under the European directive on free right of movement:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=23766 (Click on the link provided by the poster Directive/2004/38/EC)

You can contact the French embassy (when you are ready to move) and ask them about the requirements. You don't need any residence permits or visas, obviously, as an EEA citizen and the family member of an EEA citizen.

It might be better for him to obtain Icelandic citizenship (http://brunnur.stjr.is/embassy/strasb.n ... 01454E4700) because, if you were to separate or die, he would have no rights to move to the EEA on his own accord. The only exceptions would be if you have children together, then he would have rights through the EEA citizen child(ren), or if he obtains permanent residency in Iceland or elsewhere, and is able to retain his residency.

So, basically, his rights derive mostly from you, until he becomes a citizen of an EEA country himself.

[iceland]

As the immediate family member of an EEA citizen, your husband can live and work freely in any EU/EEA country that he travels to with you. So, if you were to move to France now, he would be able to join you under the European directive on free right of movement:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=23766 (Click on the link provided by the poster Directive/2004/38/EC)

You can contact the French embassy (when you are ready to move) and ask them about the requirements. You don't need any residence permits or visas, obviously, as an EEA citizen and the family member of an EEA citizen.

It might be better for him to obtain Icelandic citizenship (http://brunnur.stjr.is/embassy/strasb.n ... 01454E4700) because, if you were to separate or die, he would have no rights to move to the EEA on his own accord. The only exceptions would be if you have children together, then he would have rights through the EEA citizen child(ren), or if he obtains permanent residency in Iceland or elsewhere, and is able to retain his residency.

So, basically, his rights derive mostly from you, until he becomes a citizen of an EEA country himself.

Sakura, thanks very much for your reply. I just had two questions about things you said.

1) You mentioned that we don't need any permits because I am an EEA citizen. However, from what I have read in various places, I don't need a permit but my husband will need at least a residence permit in France, if not a work permit as well (even while being married to me). One source for this information is this site:

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/ ... idency.asp

2) About him losing his right to residence if I died or we divorced; I'm not sure about that, again with reference to the previous link. Here is the direct quote (again, who knows if this is correct, but the site does look fairly reputable): "Non-EU citizens who have been granted a right to residence based on their marriage to an EU citizen retain that right in the event of divorce or death of their EU spouse." -- according to this, he would keep his rights even after I died, assuming we were already resident in France by that time. I guess the only problem is if something happened to me BEFORE we move to France (e.g. in the US), in which case he would not be able to move to France at all, unless we had kids with Icelandic citizenship, as you say.

As for the page you cited from the Icelandic embassy in Strasbourg (I think?)... well, that only discusses people moving to Iceland, not to France as spouse of an Icelandic citizen. Or maybe I missed something?

I am just not sure what to do. If we stay in Iceland for 2 more years, then he gets the Icelandic passport and all is secure for his future, if anything happens to me. However, we kind of hate living in Iceland right now, so 2 more years seems like a huge sacrifice. He's also Lebanese, which means that his passport is basically worthless when it comes to Western countries, which is another reason we want to get him at least an American passport, if not also an EEA one. Sigh... so complicated!

[Wanderer]

You can move to wherever you like in EEA - ur husband will need to apply for an EEA FP from the UK consulate in Reykjavik.

His residency is safe if u divorce or die if you've been married for three years one of which has to be spent in the country u r living in - I think!

[iceland]

You can move to wherever you like in EEA - ur husband will need to apply for an EEA FP from the UK consulate in Reykjavik.

His residency is safe if u divorce or die if you've been married for three years one of which has to be spent in the country u r living in - I think!

Thanks, Wanderer... but why would he need to apply from the UK consolate, instead of the French one, in Reykjavik? I thought EEA family permits were only for people moving to the UK? Also, would he still have to apply from the consulate in Reykjavik if we've already moved back to the US by then?

We got married in Oct 2006 and moved to Iceland in March 2007, and plan to live here for at least another 6 months. We definitely plan to have been married for at least 3 years by the time we even think about moving to France, so that's not a problem... and we've lived in Iceland for over a year already, during our marriage.

But what are your sources for this information, by the way? I am looking for the actual laws, or at least a legal site, as a reference. Thanks!

[Wanderer]

You can move to wherever you like in EEA - ur husband will need to apply for an EEA FP from the UK consulate in Reykjavik.

His residency is safe if u divorce or die if you've been married for three years one of which has to be spent in the country u r living in - I think!

Thanks, Wanderer... but why would he need to apply from the UK consolate, instead of the French one, in Reykjavik? I thought EEA family permits were only for people moving to the UK? Also, would he still have to apply from the consulate in Reykjavik if we've already moved back to the US by then?

We got married in Oct 2006 and moved to Iceland in March 2007, and plan to live here for at least another 6 months. We definitely plan to have been married for at least 3 years by the time we even think about moving to France, so that's not a problem... and we've lived in Iceland for over a year already, during our marriage.

But what are your sources for this information, by the way? I am looking for the actual laws, or at least a legal site, as a reference. Thanks!

Sorry - misread - ur right, French one! All info sourced here!

[iceland]

You can move to wherever you like in EEA - ur husband will need to apply for an EEA FP from the UK consulate in Reykjavik.

His residency is safe if u divorce or die if you've been married for three years one of which has to be spent in the country u r living in - I think!

Thanks, Wanderer... but why would he need to apply from the UK consolate, instead of the French one, in Reykjavik? I thought EEA family permits were only for people moving to the UK? Also, would he still have to apply from the consulate in Reykjavik if we've already moved back to the US by then?

We got married in Oct 2006 and moved to Iceland in March 2007, and plan to live here for at least another 6 months. We definitely plan to have been married for at least 3 years by the time we even think about moving to France, so that's not a problem... and we've lived in Iceland for over a year already, during our marriage.

But what are your sources for this information, by the way? I am looking for the actual laws, or at least a legal site, as a reference. Thanks!

Sorry - misread - ur right, French one! All info sourced here!

So is the EEA FP a universal thing?... I mean, does it have the same title in all EEA countries? Again, I just thought it was a UK thing, but I could be wrong. I thought each country had their own system, but maybe I am wrong again. Thanks...

[Wanderer]

No - it has it's own title EEA FP is a UK thing. I dunno the French one - I'm still trying to find the German one!

[Wanderer]

BTW - Sigur Ros - great band!

[sakura]

Sakura, thanks very much for your reply. I just had two questions about things you said.

1) You mentioned that we don't need any permits because I am an EEA citizen. However, from what I have read in various places, I don't need a permit but my husband will need at least a residence permit in France, if not a work permit as well (even while being married to me). One source for this information is this site:

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/ ... idency.asp

2) About him losing his right to residence if I died or we divorced; I'm not sure about that, again with reference to the previous link. Here is the direct quote (again, who knows if this is correct, but the site does look fairly reputable): "Non-EU citizens who have been granted a right to residence based on their marriage to an EU citizen retain that right in the event of divorce or death of their EU spouse." -- according to this, he would keep his rights even after I died, assuming we were already resident in France by that time. I guess the only problem is if something happened to me BEFORE we move to France (e.g. in the US), in which case he would not be able to move to France at all, unless we had kids with Icelandic citizenship, as you say.

As for the page you cited from the Icelandic embassy in Strasbourg (I think?)... well, that only discusses people moving to Iceland, not to France as spouse of an Icelandic citizen. Or maybe I missed something?

I am just not sure what to do. If we stay in Iceland for 2 more years, then he gets the Icelandic passport and all is secure for his future, if anything happens to me. However, we kind of hate living in Iceland right now, so 2 more years seems like a huge sacrifice. He's also Lebanese, which means that his passport is basically worthless when it comes to Western countries, which is another reason we want to get him at least an American passport, if not also an EEA one. Sigh... so complicated!

1. Firstly, you technically don't need any stamps, permits or visas using the European directive - your rights, and your husband's rights, are automatic, and the residence permit is usually just a confirmation of your rights. Since some states don't do things properly, they require you to get the permit although it is not a legal requirement of the directive. You also don't need any other visa or permit to work, study, or do whatever else.

2. You mentioned that you wanted to move to the US as soon as possible, as you didn't want to stay in Iceland any longer. My point about him losing residency is based on if you moved to the US now...then he would not have any chance of returning. If you move directly to France, then, yes, he is likely able to keep his residency. There are some requirements for this, however, so it isn't automatic.

The link I gave was about how to apply for Icelandic citizenship...I was going to refer to what was required of him for that. However, I didn't realise it was the Icelandic embassy in France! I thought it was the Icelandic government's website...

Why not just move to France now? He can always apply for French citizenship at some point, although that would be about 5-6 years down the line, compared to two years in Iceland...

[iceland]

Sakura, thanks very much for your reply. I just had two questions about things you said.

1) You mentioned that we don't need any permits because I am an EEA citizen. However, from what I have read in various places, I don't need a permit but my husband will need at least a residence permit in France, if not a work permit as well (even while being married to me). One source for this information is this site:

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/ ... idency.asp

2) About him losing his right to residence if I died or we divorced; I'm not sure about that, again with reference to the previous link. Here is the direct quote (again, who knows if this is correct, but the site does look fairly reputable): "Non-EU citizens who have been granted a right to residence based on their marriage to an EU citizen retain that right in the event of divorce or death of their EU spouse." -- according to this, he would keep his rights even after I died, assuming we were already resident in France by that time. I guess the only problem is if something happened to me BEFORE we move to France (e.g. in the US), in which case he would not be able to move to France at all, unless we had kids with Icelandic citizenship, as you say.

As for the page you cited from the Icelandic embassy in Strasbourg (I think?)... well, that only discusses people moving to Iceland, not to France as spouse of an Icelandic citizen. Or maybe I missed something?

I am just not sure what to do. If we stay in Iceland for 2 more years, then he gets the Icelandic passport and all is secure for his future, if anything happens to me. However, we kind of hate living in Iceland right now, so 2 more years seems like a huge sacrifice. He's also Lebanese, which means that his passport is basically worthless when it comes to Western countries, which is another reason we want to get him at least an American passport, if not also an EEA one. Sigh... so complicated!

1. Firstly, you technically don't need any stamps, permits or visas using the European directive - your rights, and your husband's rights, are automatic, and the residence permit is usually just a confirmation of your rights. Since some states don't do things properly, they require you to get the permit although it is not a legal requirement of the directive. You also don't need any other visa or permit to work, study, or do whatever else.

2. You mentioned that you wanted to move to the US as soon as possible, as you didn't want to stay in Iceland any longer. My point about him losing residency is based on if you moved to the US now...then he would not have any chance of returning. If you move directly to France, then, yes, he is likely able to keep his residency. There are some requirements for this, however, so it isn't automatic.

The link I gave was about how to apply for Icelandic citizenship...I was going to refer to what was required of him for that. However, I didn't realise it was the Icelandic embassy in France! I thought it was the Icelandic government's website...

Why not just move to France now? He can always apply for French citizenship at some point, although that would be about 5-6 years down the line, compared to two years in Iceland...

Thanks again, Sakura. Problem is, I think he would need to at least carry some kind of documentation around on his person in France, because he's from Lebanon and we all know how that goes. Even in Iceland, as a spouse of an Icelandic citizen, he was required to get a D-Visa to enter the country in the first place, and then to get a residence permit in order to remain in the country and work. So I can't see France being more lenient than Iceland, but who knows. Usually we take the highest precautions because he's from a Middle Eastern country, so we often have to show all kinds of documentation wherever we go.

The reason we want to move to the US soon is because his green card is pending there, and once we receive that, then we still need to reside in the US for 3 years before he gets the American passport. Yes, since I'm a dual citizen, I want him to get as many passports as possible through me! So we most definitely won't be moving to France in the near future; it would be at least 3-5 years from now, at the earliest. Certainly, his residency (in Iceland) will no longer be valid by that point, so we would essentially be "starting over" then, at least in terms of residence in a European country. Which is why it might pay off to just get him the Icelandic passport ASAP (2 more years here), so that we never have to worry about residency, etc again. It's just so hard to live here for that long!!

Hope that clarifies things. I realize our situation is rather complex...

[sakura]

As much as you don't like the idea, the best option is to stay in Iceland, where he can 1. qualify for citizenship and 2. wait for his green card. Although of course I don't know how long it would take for the green card to come through, it is the simplest option.

As for France...well, in the UK, the European directive rights happen automatically, but people apply for the residence permit as a visible confirmation of their rights (e.g. if they want to apply for jobs, open a bank account or get searched by police, it is a good proof of legal residency but is not THE proof of legal residency). So my point was simply that technically, he doesn't need to apply for it, but it makes life easier to do so.

I think that for France, the current system is that he arrives on a tourist visa and then applies for the residence permit whilst in France (it is probably called a different name in France, as the "residence permit" is what it is called in the UK).

[yankeegirl]

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/ ... idency.asp

Here's some info for the French carte de sejour, how to apply, documentation needed and such.

[iceland]

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/ ... idency.asp

Here's some info for the French carte de sejour, how to apply, documentation needed and such.

Thanks, yankeegirl... I actually already found that site earlier (quoted it a few posts ago), and that's where I had the question for Sakura about whether or not the residency permit is necessary for my non-EEA husband in France. It's this bit that stands out to me (and matches the policy of Iceland, if true):

"The non-EU spouse, children under 21 and parents of an EU citizen in France are entitled to live and work in the country but require a residence permit (Carte de Séjour). Application must be made at the Préfecture, within two months of entry in to France. A receipt (récépissé) is issued on application and a residency permit with the right to work (CE membre de famille, toutes activités professionnelles) is sent within six months of application. The permit is valid for up to five years; it must be renewed at least two months before the expiry date. It is issued at no cost."

In any case, Sakura, I think you're probably right that our best bet is to just stick it out in Iceland and get him the Icelandic/EEA passport for security and less stress in the future. His US green card application is basically just on hold (our decision) until we decide to put it back into action, which would only take a couple of months before he received it and had to re-enter the US to reside for 3 years. So staying in Iceland doesn't endanger his US green card application, and it will only pay off in terms of long-term security and living in France in the future.

I guess we have two conflicting worries:

1) Spend 2 more years in Iceland (not our idea of fun, but if it must be done, then we'll do it) and have lifelong security with regards to passports... but endure those 2 years in the meantime, which are stressful to us.

or

2) Leave Iceland soon, thus relieving our immediate stress of living here, but increasing potential future stress. We could go to France based on my Icelandic passport alone, I know... but again, if anything happened to me, I want to be sure that my husband still has the right to live and work in Europe, if he wants to.

In any case, I wrote to the French consulate in Iceland today to ask for their opinion, so we'll see what they say. In the meantime, I appreciate everyone's help and discussion!

[Ben]

..1) Spend 2 more years in Iceland (not our idea of fun, but if it must be done, then we'll do it) ..

Off topic, but what's so bad about living in Iceland?

[iceland]

..1) Spend 2 more years in Iceland (not our idea of fun, but if it must be done, then we'll do it) ..

Off topic, but what's so bad about living in Iceland?

Heh, well... that IS the central topic, at least for me and my husband! Honestly, it's not that bad here--if you grew up in Iceland, or if you're a foreigner who's totally in love with the place and can pick up difficult languages with ease. I did not grow up here, and while I was in love with it for the first year I lived here (back in 2001-02) and even picked up a fair bit of Icelandic, I'm now past the honeymoon stage and am totally disenchanted with the place. The winter of 2008 was pretty horrible--non-stop snow for 3+ months, and the darkness is difficult for anyone to handle, even the natives. (20 hours of pitch darkness in the winter.) The society is pretty new to immigration, too, and they have a difficult time adjusting to new people, especially those who look different--e.g. dark hair/skin, etc. We've tried our darndest to fit in, but it still took about 9 months to make any friends at all, and most of those are foreigners anyway. And the sheer lack of variety of things to do, places to go (during the 9 cold months of the year), horrible weather almost ALL the time, lack of diversity in general... it's stifling. Did I mention that it's the most expensive country in the world to live in, officially? Chicken is $17 a pound, if that gives you any idea.

This might be tolerable if we had no other choice, like a lot of other immigrants here, but I have an American passport, and that's my home. We both went to grad school there, and feel VERY comfortable there... we just love the lifestyle that we are able to have there, the way we can fit in just about anywhere, and the joy of having so much variety and diversity all around us. I don't know what it would be like to live in France--maybe it would be even harder than Iceland, who knows--but my husband has close family there, there are a lot more choices of things to do, etc., and French CANNOT be more difficult to learn than Icelandic, believe me!!

Does that answer your question?

[Ben]

Does that answer your question?

It does. And thank you, interesting read. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[iceland]

Does that answer your question?

It does. And thank you, interesting read. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Thanks for reading. I know I don't have any room to complain, seeing as most people in the world today will never have the privilege of making a decision like ours. I study immigration to Iceland, and I know that a whole lot of people would see this place as a paradise, simply for the quality of life that it offers in comparison to their home (developing) countries.

I realize that I am extremely lucky to have been born with these dual citizenship rights, so I am indeed grateful... but since my husband was born with different rights, a decision about how to transfer my rights to him, needs to be made. So that's our current struggle. Relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but important in our little world.

[pierre75]

there is a new forum in French for binationals.

Mostly about how to fight the French administration for french/noEEE
couples but we started a section related to European roads

[Wanderer]

I've never forgiven the woman in the ticket office in Paris who threw my money at me cos I couldn't remember the French word for 'day'. (I wanted a day ticket).

1984 that was.....

Icelandic is an inflected language which is not the norm for Scandinavian languages. Russian is inflected too and even harder. French is easy apart from the word for 'day'.

[iceland]

there is a new forum in French for binationals.

Mostly about how to fight the French administration for french/noEEE
couples but we started a section related to European roads

Good to know, thanks! I'll refer my husband to it, since he's the Francophone between the two of us.

[iceland]

FYI, I got a reply from the French consular officer in Iceland, and he told me that:

1) yes, my husband would need a residence permit to live in France (with me)
2) if anything happens to me or our marriage, then my husband would no longer be eligible to live in France (or any other EEA country).

So that's the deal, from the horse's mouth. Thanks all! I think we're gonna take a chance and move back to the US sooner rather than later, and forego the Icelandic passport.