Traveling from NI to ROI

[a_bentz]

hi all, query retracted

[ca.funke]

politically: I suggest working towards having the UK and Ireland join Schengen, which would stop all such problems.

As for practical matters: I recently heard of someone who was "interrogated" at the NI/ROI border, and then sent back to the other side.

For you this "interrogation", should it occurr, may pass smoothly: You drivers' license shows who you are. It should then be possible for the relevant authorities to confirm in their databases that you hold the citizenship you claim to hold, and that should be the end of it.

Of course it would be nice to confirm this with someone who really knows.

[joesoap101]

Those who get interrogated tend to be the ones that looks suspicious (according to simplistic profiling) ie non-white, its sad but true. To be safe just carry one of your passports even though its inconvenient. I dont think they would put up a fight if you tell them youre Irish.

[JAJ]

politically: I suggest working towards having the UK and Ireland join Schengen, which would stop all such problems.

At the price of opening up the United Kingdom to uncontrolled illegal migration.

[a_bentz]

query retracted

[mktsoi]

hi all,

just a wee question to get some points of view. I currently live in NI and often travel over into ROI for my work in the north. Now, i am of s. african origin and am now naturalised british. I also have irish citizenship. when reading up on the common travel area, british or irish citizens dont need to carry passports travelling between the two regions if they can show they were born in either country ie. drivers licence. since my drivers licence says born in s.africa, were do you think i stand, holding both irish and british citizenship could i be detained only travelling with my uk drivers licence having a south african accent too? what about flying between the two areas just using my drivers licence? sorry if the question seems stupid. just sometimes i dont have time to go home and fetch my passport when travelling, last minute stuff.

are you driving or on public transportation? mostly, they only check people on the public transportation and not the one driving their car.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Easiest is to carry a passport. (Is it really that dangerous to do that these days in NI?)

You should at least carry a photocopy of each passport's information page. EU Case law and Directive 2004/38/EC both say that if you are not carrying a passport, they can not turn you back if you can otherwise prove that you are covered by the right of free movement. A driver's license and details from the passport should hopefully be enough in case you need to prove this.

[a_bentz]

hey there,

i use public transport and also sometimes drive down. maybe its just me but having to carry a large maroon passport every day just in case i need to travel on the island to me seems so extreme, but if thats what the governments expect then so be it. not a nice thought of being stopped and turned around at a land border. i like the idea of a photocopy, directive, i might just do that thanks.

[ca.funke]

politically: I suggest working towards having the UK and Ireland join Schengen, which would stop all such problems.

At the price of opening up the United Kingdom to uncontrolled illegal migration.

Integrating into Schengen does NOT open anyone up to "uncontrolled illegal immigration".

Look at the island-nation of Iceland, which integrated into Schengen although they are not even in the EU. I do not recall they intend to pull back out, or are flooded by illegals...

However, again politically, I understand that UK/Ireland want to keep their advantage of being island-nations, which yields it easier to control their borders, compared to the land-borders of the Schengen-community.

I would plea for a modified Schengen-integration along the following rules:

• UK and Ireland become Schengen-members
• To avoid "illegal" immigration, UK/Eire retain the right to check people on arrival, establishing that the person seeking entry is an EU/EEA national, a non-visa-required national, or has a valid Schengen-visa (this being the only exception to their Schengen-membership)

• This would facilitate legitimate travel (both ways)
• While keeping the island-advantage
• If the IOM and the other channel-islands are officially included, the "common-travel-area" could remain as it is, finally representing the true meaning of the word again

On a practical note:

Both the UK and Ireland seem incapable of effectively using their island-advantages: I know people who sailed on a small private boat from France to Malahide (Ireland, near Dublin).

Leaving France (=leaving Schengen), a military boat approached them, boarded and checked passports and -briefly- the cabin.

Sailing around the UK and into Ireland: Nothing happened.

Therefore, personally I trust Schengen-controls more than those of Eire or the UK, but that doesn't change the overall topic.

[joesoap101]

ca.funke your proposals are completely unrealistic and the Schengen signatories will never allow the UK and Ireland to cherry pick the benefits of Schengen. Suggesting that people should still be checked goes 100% against the whole purpose of Schengen.

Travelling by boat from a Schengen country, you would expect some check considering all Schengen countries conduct exit checks on people leaving the zone. Sailing around the UK and Ireland you never leave the common travel area in which no passport checks are conducted.

Its all or nothing with Schengen, the Schengen signatories barely want to cooperate on information sharing with the UK and Ireland.

And finally the argument about Iceland is irrelevant. Most illegal immigrants are probably not even aware there is such a country as Iceland which is much more difficult to reach compared to the UK.

[Christophe]

Look at the island-nation of Iceland, which integrated into Schengen although they are not even in the EU. I do not recall they intend to pull back out, or are flooded by illegals...

No, Iceland is not flooded by illegal immigrants, and — no offence to Iceland, which I dearly love, on the basis of my visits there — it is not likely to to be, either: it is a tiny and remote county, expensive and relatively difficult to get to and expensive to live in, where the native language is not one that illegal immigrants are likely to know or to want to get to know. I don't really think that the situation of Iceland and the situation of the UK and Ireland are comparable, to be honest.

Of course, the UK's arguments about staying out of Schengen would sound more plausible if the UK government had done a better job of controlling the borders (to adapt their own phrase), but that's a separate point, I guess. And I think we can take it for granted that there will be no movement towards the UK joining the Schengen area during what remains of the lifetime of the present UK government, nor do I think that the next government (whatever its political hue) will be much interested, either. (I could of course be wrong about that.) Indeed, it may well be that the UK never joins the Schengen area, especially if the Schengen arrangements ultimately cease to exist in their current form. (And I could be wrong about that too!)

[ca.funke]

ca.funke your proposals are completely unrealistic and the Schengen signatories will never allow the UK and Ireland to cherry pick the benefits of Schengen. Suggesting that people should still be checked goes 100% against the whole purpose of Schengen.

Travelling by boat from a Schengen country, you would expect some check considering all Schengen countries conduct exit checks on people leaving the zone. Sailing around the UK and Ireland you never leave the common travel area in which no passport checks are conducted.

Its all or nothing with Schengen, the Schengen signatories barely want to cooperate on information sharing with the UK and Ireland.

And finally the argument about Iceland is irrelevant. Most illegal immigrants are probably not even aware there is such a country as Iceland which is much more difficult to reach compared to the UK.

They sailed from France (=leaving Schengen --> Exit check properly done) directly to Ireland (into the "Common Travel Area"), where (according to Common-Travel and/or Irish rules) an entry-check should have been performed. This was omitted, and was thus outside the rules.

Look at the island-nation of Iceland, which integrated into Schengen although they are not even in the EU. I do not recall they intend to pull back out, or are flooded by illegals...

No, Iceland is not flooded by illegal immigrants, and — no offence to Iceland, which I dearly love, on the basis of my visits there — it is not likely to to be, either: it is a tiny and remote county, expensive and relatively difficult to get to and expensive to live in, where the native language is not one that illegal immigrants are likely to know or to want to get to know. I don't really think that the situation of Iceland and the situation of the UK and Ireland are comparable, to be honest.

Of course, the UK's arguments about staying out of Schengen would sound more plausible if the UK government had done a better job of controlling the borders (to adapt their own phrase), but that's a separate point, I guess. And I think we can take it for granted that there will be no movement towards the UK joining the Schengen area during what remains of the lifetime of the present UK government, nor do I think that the next government (whatever its political hue) will be much interested, either. (I could of course be wrong about that.) Indeed, it may well be that the UK never joins the Schengen area, especially if the Schengen arrangements ultimately cease to exist in their current form. (And I could be wrong about that too!)

If the UK mistrusts "the continent" so much, and think they can perform their own checks better - they are welcome to do that. I wouldn't want to force them to do anything, even if I could.

But, why are they not a bit more consistent and leave the EU?

They are already cherry-picking.

Of course the Schengen-countries wouldn't be amused about the above proposal, but why shouldn't it be discussed? One of the main points of Schengen was to yield border-checks on land-borders superfluous. (I know of the advantages, as I used to live in Belgium, only 500 metres from the border to Germany. No more jams, no more stress...) If a country would want to join Schengen while having a land-border with "usual" Schengen, I would strongly oppose my own above idea.

But another main point of Schengen was to agree on a single-visa policy, which would allow travel throughout the Area without having to apply for multiple Visas.

In the case of UK/Ireland: When flying or taking a ferry, ID has to be carried anyway, so the extra-check can be performed at nearly no extra-hassle, while visa-nationals who are legally present inside the EU would no longer have to apply for visas. That would be a huge advantage, at relatively low costs: (no extra visas ./. passport control on UK/Eire-entry)

This would equally yield checks between ROI / NI (original topic of this post) superfluous, as all movements would automatically be covered by Schengen.

Main point number three of Schengen is a common database, which lists "personas non grata". In this regard, the Schengen-integration would raise, not lower, overall security for everyone.

As a summary I would promote Schengen-membership of Eire/UK (+channel-islands), with the concession of allowing them to check people on entry, which would acknowledge their naturally given island-advantage.

It'd be nice if it would happen, however I am not naive and I do not think this will happen for the following (very unfortunate) reasons:

• The UK is issuing new coins now, to show to the Europeans that they do in no way consider joining the Euro. (Different topic, but same pattern)
• At the same time they plan to introduce their e-border regime, which is definitely a sign that Schengen is a "system non-grata" in the UK.
• This will be a problem for Ireland, as this UK-move will force Eire to follow suit, or the ROI/NI border will have to be patrolled in the future.

Thus the UK's refusal to integrate will be a burden for Ireland, a burden Ireland should IMHO not accept without gaining in one way or another.

[Christophe]

Two things, though, that you would think would not be beyond the wit of our political masters and that might be possible would be for:

• the UK and Ireland to recognise each other's visas, entry clearances and residence permits as valid for short, tourist visits
• the UK and Ireland and the Schengen areas to recognise each other's permanent resident permits as valid for short, tourist visits

The UK is issuing new coins now, to show to the Europeans that they do in no way consider joining the Euro. (Different topic, but same pattern)

Different topic, as you say, but I doubt that the reason that the UK is issuing new coins is particularly to send a message to the Euro-zone countries... I suspect that that idea gives the Euro more prominence in the thinking than it really has.

[ca.funke]

Two things, though, that you would think would not be beyond the wit of our political masters and that might be possible would be for:

• the UK and Ireland to recognise each other's visas, entry clearances and residence permits as valid for short, tourist visits
• the UK and Ireland and the Schengen areas to recognise each other's permanent resident permits as valid for short, tourist visits

I agree, this would be great as well. In effect, it would be roughly the same outcome.

I'd love to see either proposal happening, as it would facilitate legitimate travel, while equally controlling illegal movements.

However, the current situation is ridiculous, and unfortunately it seems it will remain this way.

[joesoap101]

As a side note, the pound has depreciated significantly against the euro, perhaps this is making them nervous so they start issuing new coins.

The main problem here is tit for tat child like behaviour in not recognising visas and resident permits. All visas/resident permits issued by all EU/EEA member states should be acceptable in all EU/EEA countries. This should be done regardless of Schengen.