Marriage during UK Visitor Visa

[disillusioned_brit]

Hi all,

Thanks in advance to all of you who are able to comment and advice.

I feel a bit stuck and need some advice.

My partner, a Bosnian national, arrived in the UK with visitor visa, and now has a month or so left before it expires and she will need to leave. Although she arrived without the intention of staying longterm, but just to see if she could adjust to life here, we are now in a position where I nor her want for her to leave.

There are a number of complications stopping us from going down the normal route of her going back and applying under a fiancee/spouse visa, and as such your help would be most welcome.

1. She is now almost 3 months pregnant and I simply do not want her to go and risk for there to be any complications and her be alone, or even not being there through her pregnancy.
2. I have two children from a previous relationship, who I have shared custody of (half the time), who have built a relationship with her.
3. Her family are no longer speaking to her, due to our relationship, as a result so has no where to go.
4. I am a company director and although I have enough to support us, for one reason or another I am not earning the minimum required for the spouse/fiancee visa.

We have discussed the option of her overstaying and we get married anyway (even though this is not allowed as a visitor), and then make an application on the grounds of marriage, my existing children and also the child we're expecting. We have been told the income requirements won't be necessary in this case, but we can provide supporting evidence to support this if needs be.

I have no intention of asking for a single penny from benefits or NHS (I have never done this), and expect to fully pay all bills that may require to be paid, this is not an issue.

I realise this isn't the ideal situation, and believe me not what I ever thought I would be doing, but I have fallen in love and am in this position now.

Again all help is really appreciated.

[secret.simon]

The reason that

We have been told the income requirements won't be necessary in this case

Because if you go down the path you are looking at, your fiancé would be on the 10 year FLR(FP) private/family route, rather than the 5 year FLR(M) spouse of a British citizen route.

Be aware that the Marriage Registrar would be required to notify the Home Office of the marriage and they could extend the marriage notice period to 70 days.

There will also be consequences on any future applications under the UK Immigration route and on her naturalisation application, not to mention on her possible foreign travel.

It would be much easier if she were to return to her home country (she does not have to stay at her home if her family is against her) and apply from there.

Alternatively, why don't both of you go to Denmark and get married there? Apparently, it is the Gretna Green/Las Vegas of the EU. Then, once you are back, you can apply for a spouse of a British citizen visa directly.

[Casa]

Further to secret.simon's advice, you have considerable hurdles to overcome:
1. You can only give notice to marry with a Home Office designated Registry Office

2. The standard registration period is 28 days and it appears from your post that you would have insufficient time before your fiancee's visa expires.

3. You will need permission from the Home Office to marry, which they won't give if your fiancee is in the UK as a visitor.

4. You can certainly marry in Denmark but you would be unable to apply for a spouse settlement visa from within the UK. Your fiancee would have to submit the application in Bosnia.

5. You will be required to meet the minimum income level of £18,600 p.a and your wife would need to pass the A1 English test through a test provider on the Home Office approved list. The test could be taken in the UK while she is here as a visitor, assuming her visa hasn't expired.

[disillusioned_brit]

Further to secret.simon's advice, you have considerable hurdles to overcome:
1. You can only give notice to marry with a Home Office designated Registry Office

2. The standard registration period is 28 days and it appears from your post that you would have insufficient time before your fiancee's visa expires.

3. You will need permission from the Home Office to marry, which they won't give if your fiancee is in the UK as a visitor.

4. You can certainly marry in Denmark but you would be unable to apply for a spouse settlement visa from within the UK. Your fiancee would have to submit the application in Bosnia.

5. You will be required to meet the minimum income level of £18,600 p.a and your wife would need to pass the A1 English test through a test provider on the Home Office approved list. The test could be taken in the UK while she is here as a visitor, assuming her visa hasn't expired.

Thank you for your quick reply.

In relation to point 3, regarding Home Office giving permission, we’ve been told by a solicitor that they can only refuse if they feel it a sham/fake marriage. Is this correct, or can they even in our case?

[disillusioned_brit]

The reason that

We have been told the income requirements won't be necessary in this case

Because if you go down the path you are looking at, your fiancé would be on the 10 year FLR(FP) private/family route, rather than the 5 year FLR(M) spouse of a British citizen route.

Be aware that the Marriage Registrar would be required to notify the Home Office of the marriage and they could extend the marriage notice period to 70 days.

There will also be consequences on any future applications under the UK Immigration route and on her naturalisation application, not to mention on her possible foreign travel.

It would be much easier if she were to return to her home country (she does not have to stay at her home if her family is against her) and apply from there.

Alternatively, why don't both of you go to Denmark and get married there? Apparently, it is the Gretna Green/Las Vegas of the EU. Then, once you are back, you can apply for a spouse of a British citizen visa directly.

Thank you for your reply.

I will look into Denmark. Just such a shame that we have to do all this, but I’m sure there’s some need for all of this.

[Casa]

Even if you are fortunate and are given HO permission to marry without the notice being extended to 70 days, how will you manage to do this before your fiancee's visa expires in a month's time, when the standard notification period is 28 days?

Your Solicitor should have advised you that if the HO choose to extend the notification period in order to interview you both separately, if your fiancee's visitor visa has expired she risks the possibility of being detained during the interview.

In my honest opinion, I don't believe the HO will approve the registration as it's not permitted within the Immigration Rules to marry in the UK while on a visitor visa.

[Frontier Mole]

I can assure you the HO will not grant permission to marry in your circumstances.

[disillusioned_brit]

Even if you are fortunate and are given HO permission to marry without the notice being extended to 70 days, how will you manage to do this before your fiancee's visa expires in a month's time, when the standard notification period is 28 days?

Your Solicitor should have advised you that if the HO choose to extend the notification period in order to interview you both separately, if your fiancee's visitor visa has expired she risks the possibility of being detained during the interview.

In my honest opinion, I don't believe the HO will approve the registration as it's not permitted within the Immigration Rules to marry in the UK while on a visitor visa.

I'm beginning to agree with all of you that getting married in the UK is probably not the best idea and is riddled with problems.

If we were to marry in another country (say Denmark) and then return within the visa period, she overstays and then we make an in country application that we are married, she has a relationship with my two existing children and she's pregnant with my child, could this work?

If we were to the above would this mean that she could potentially get banned from returning to the UK should it not goto plan or the appeal doesn't work following a potential refusal.

I am truly lost and just trying to make this work, without her needing her to go away.

Thank you again for all your help.

[Casa]

As I see it, the stumbling block would be attempting to re-enter the UK on a visitor visa which is close to expiry, following a recent lengthy stay. I doubt that the IO at UK Border Control will grant her entry.

Could I ask if your relationship was declared on her visitor visa application and how long was stated she intended to stay in the UK

For the moment I'm not addressing the long and extremely bumpy path to regularising her right to remain in the UK without any legal status.

[disillusioned_brit]

As I see it, the stumbling block would be attempting to re-enter the UK on a visitor visa which is close to expiry, following a recent lengthy stay. I doubt that the IO at UK Border Control will grant her entry.

Could I ask if your relationship was declared on her visitor visa application and how long was stated she intended to stay in the UK

For the moment I'm not addressing the long and extremely bumpy path to regularising her right to remain in the UK without any legal status.

Thank you again for your help.

Yes absolutely, she said she was coming to meet me and I even wrote a letter saying she would be staying with me.

Further we have been away a number of times during her stay here and come back together with the border officers commenting jovially about us being together and that we should 'do things properly' etc.

With regards to coming back to the UK so close to the end of her visa, we phoned the home office/immigration number this morning and the lady we spoke to said we would potentially need to show an exit ticket booked (which we have). We also have a friends wedding towards the end of the month, which is a genuine reason and booked for a very long time.

[Casa]

Please be cautious about advice given on the Home Office 'help line'. This is outsourced to an agency whose staff have very limited knowledge on immigration issues and frequently give incorrect or misleading information. Neither will they accept any responsibility for the consequences.

How long does your fiancee have left before her visitor visa expires?

[Frontier Mole]

And of course when you talked to the help line you stated the full facts... you are leaving the UK to marry, intending to return and overstay etc... hmmm thinking not.

If you are really unlucky and get pulled by Border Force and they start asking questions are you going to lie?

Say they trawl your baggage and find evidence of the marriage - guess what happens then.... she is on the next plane home and with a minimum 1 year mandatory refusal ban on coming back.

The point you are not really getting there is a system, a policy, a process and a correct way of doing this, you just don’t seem to want to follow it.

Good luck and I wish you well but the route you wish to pursue is risky, costly, has no guaranteed positive outcome and above all is stressful and wearing.

[Casa]

And of course when you talked to the help line you stated the full facts... you are leaving the UK to marry, intending to return and overstay etc... hmmm thinking not.

If you are really unlucky and get pulled by Border Force and they start asking questions are you going to lie?

Say they trawl your baggage and find evidence of the marriage - guess what happens then.... she is on the next plane home and with a minimum 1 year mandatory refusal ban on coming back.

The point you are not really getting there is a system, a policy, a process and a correct way of doing this, you just don’t seem to want to follow it.

Good luck and I wish you well but the route you wish to pursue is risky, costly, has no guaranteed positive outcome and above all is stressful and wearing.

I would heed Frontier Mole's advice.

[disillusioned_brit]

Please be cautious about advice given on the Home Office 'help line'. This is outsourced to an agency whose staff have very limited knowledge on immigration issues and frequently give incorrect or misleading information. Neither will they accept any responsibility for the consequences.

How long does your fiancee have left before her visitor visa expires?

It runs out on the 1st of April.

I also emailed the Home Office to tell them that we had changed our plans and she’ll be leaving later than we originally thought.

[disillusioned_brit]

And of course when you talked to the help line you stated the full facts... you are leaving the UK to marry, intending to return and overstay etc... hmmm thinking not.

If you are really unlucky and get pulled by Border Force and they start asking questions are you going to lie?

Say they trawl your baggage and find evidence of the marriage - guess what happens then.... she is on the next plane home and with a minimum 1 year mandatory refusal ban on coming back.

The point you are not really getting there is a system, a policy, a process and a correct way of doing this, you just don’t seem to want to follow it.

Good luck and I wish you well but the route you wish to pursue is risky, costly, has no guaranteed positive outcome and above all is stressful and wearing.

Very abrupt, but to the point and nevertheless appreciated.

Difficult to follow the ‘rules’ when you feel they’re stacked against you and all you’re trying to do is be with someone you love.

I really do appreciate your candidness and time, so thank you.

[Casa]

When do you believe you will be able to meet the £18,600 p.a minimum income level? Do you have savings over £16,000 to make up any shortfall?

[disillusioned_brit]

When do you believe you will be able to meet the £18,600 p.a minimum income level? Do you have savings over £16,000 to make up any shortfall?

I’ve spoken to my accountant on Thursday and he informs me that I can make that through dividends this past year, as the financial year hasn’t ended yet. So this can be done straight away and confirmed through bank statements.

I think there’s only the requirement for one year to show this, if I’m correct?

[ALKB]

Alternatively, why don't both of you go to Denmark and get married there? Apparently, it is the Gretna Green/Las Vegas of the EU. Then, once you are back, you can apply for a spouse of a British citizen visa directly.

Please be aware that Denmark has changed their marriage law for international couples (I think from January this year) and that now all applications have to go through a centralised unit that scans for sham marriages. I haven't heard anything so far but I imagine that processing times are now a bit longer than when just dealing directly with the municipality you want to marry in.

[Casa]

When do you believe you will be able to meet the £18,600 p.a minimum income level? Do you have savings over £16,000 to make up any shortfall?

I’ve spoken to my accountant on Thursday and he informs me that I can make that through dividends this past year, as the financial year hasn’t ended yet. So this can be done straight away and confirmed through bank statements.

I think there’s only the requirement for one year to show this, if I’m correct? I believe so, yes. Wait for others better placed to advise on self-employment and dividends.

In light of the above, I would either marry in Bosnia and submit a Spouse Settlement visa from there, which providing you submit ALL of the required documents, should be processed within a few weeks.
Or a fiancee visa application could be submitted in Bosnia, which would give you 6 months in which to marry in the UK on her return.

Re-entering on a Spouse visa after marrying would be the less costly option as there would only be one visa application. Also unlike the fiancee visa, your wife would be entitled to the free use of the NHS for the birth of your baby.

This all assumes that she returns to Bosnia before her visitor visa expires to avoid complicating any settlement application.

Frontier Mole's advice may have seemed to be abrupt, but I'm sure he was playing 'devil's advocate'. The Case Workers aren't renowned for compassion and your partner's pregnancy is unlikely to sway any decision on an application submitted without valid leave to remain. They simply follow the Immigration Rules.

Edit: ALKB is correct that the marriage rules in Denmark changed in January 2019.

[Frontier Mole]

I can’t private message you as you don’t have enough posts under your belt. I am not being a git or deliberately obtuse with you or your case. I totally get where you are coming from and understand the frustration that our immigration system causes. If you kick out or push against it - this rarely ends well. I have a different perspective than most because of my professional involvement in the industry.

I know it is not what you want to hear but a Spouse application from her home country is a better more risk adverse option. You have time to prepare between now and 1/4, not going to say it is not a tight timeline.

You need to get that dividend payment certificate as an absolute priority, with that in hand you are a good 70% of the way to sucess.

Next steps - evidence of contact, visits to her or to you, how did you meet, ensure your recollection and dates match up in case of interview, do not go on about how your kids have reacted well (emotion and immigration do not mix), get all your paperwork ready - house rental / mortgage/ ownership, bank statements, evidence of directorship / contract of employment, share holding documents, annual accounts.....

Work out if it is better to marry in Denmark (a new bit of learning for me - Las Vagas of Europe !) or in her home country. Maybe plan it so you marry at the end of March and do the round trip Denmark / Bosnia / UK - apply online and go for priority service.
She could be back in the UK if all goes well in two weeks.

Use this forum to get the best practices for self employed spouse visa applications.

[Frontier Mole]

Sorry duplicate post

[Frontier Mole]

Sorry to pry but just to prepare you / her for the possibility of interview - BTW not looking for you to answer this on this forum.. just think about your answers
Is there a significant age gap between you and her - if yes that will push the sham marriage button
If you have known her for less than two years - that is a concern - arbitrary length of time but used as an indicator
How / where did you meet - holiday romance is not what they want to hear.
What is her social standing - poor / rich, educated or not, employed or not, what was her job when employed. Educated, professionals with assets and a social standing versus a low end uneducated unemployed person. Guess what individual they are not going to favour.
Criminal record - does she have any issues.
Pregnancy - I am inclined not to bring this to the fore... it does not score on the rules and in fact may be a point of bias against her. Can go either way depending on the caseworker.
Religious differences / family angle on her side - all best avoided

[disillusioned_brit]

When do you believe you will be able to meet the £18,600 p.a minimum income level? Do you have savings over £16,000 to make up any shortfall?

I’ve spoken to my accountant on Thursday and he informs me that I can make that through dividends this past year, as the financial year hasn’t ended yet. So this can be done straight away and confirmed through bank statements.

I think there’s only the requirement for one year to show this, if I’m correct? I believe so, yes. Wait for others better placed to advise on self-employment and dividends.

In light of the above, I would either marry in Bosnia and submit a Spouse Settlement visa from there, which providing you submit ALL of the required documents, should be processed within a few weeks.
Or a fiancee visa application could be submitted in Bosnia, which would give you 6 months in which to marry in the UK on her return.

Re-entering on a Spouse visa after marrying would be the less costly option as there would only be one visa application. Also unlike the fiancee visa, your wife would be entitled to the free use of the NHS for the birth of your baby.

This all assumes that she returns to Bosnia before her visitor visa expires to avoid complicating any settlement application.

Frontier Mole's advice may have seemed to be abrupt, but I'm sure he was playing 'devil's advocate'. The Case Workers aren't renowned for compassion and your partner's pregnancy is unlikely to sway any decision on an application submitted without valid leave to remain. They simply follow the Immigration Rules.

Edit: ALKB is correct that the marriage rules in Denmark changed in January 2019.

Thank you so much for your continued help.

Are there any significant differences between the spouse v fiancée route? I’ve been told they’re both pretty much the same in every way during the application process. I understand the differences post application, just thinking if one is more favored than the other.

[disillusioned_brit]

I can’t private message you as you don’t have enough posts under your belt. I am not being a git or deliberately obtuse with you or your case. I totally get where you are coming from and understand the frustration that our immigration system causes. If you kick out or push against it - this rarely ends well. I have a different perspective than most because of my professional involvement in the industry.

I know it is not what you want to hear but a Spouse application from her home country is a better more risk adverse option. You have time to prepare between now and 1/4, not going to say it is not a tight timeline.

You need to get that dividend payment certificate as an absolute priority, with that in hand you are a good 70% of the way to sucess.

Next steps - evidence of contact, visits to her or to you, how did you meet, ensure your recollection and dates match up in case of interview, do not go on about how your kids have reacted well (emotion and immigration do not mix), get all your paperwork ready - house rental / mortgage/ ownership, bank statements, evidence of directorship / contract of employment, share holding documents, annual accounts.....

Work out if it is better to marry in Denmark (a new bit of learning for me - Las Vagas of Europe !) or in her home country. Maybe plan it so you marry at the end of March and do the round trip Denmark / Bosnia / UK - apply online and go for priority service.
She could be back in the UK if all goes well in two weeks.

Use this forum to get the best practices for self employed spouse visa applications.

I really hope I didn’t offend you in anyway, as that really wasn’t my intention. Your advice and input is massively appreciated. Sometimes you need to hear what the facts are rather than being emotional-which is difficult when you’re in the thick of it.

You’re advise is pretty much where we’re heading now (I think!). I really don’t want her to get into trouble and especially not get a ban/anything adverse which may prejudice future applications.

When you say round trip, I take it you mean for me to go with her, get married and then come back with her staying in Bosnia?

Your other message is great and loads of food for thought, most of which is ticked off. So sad that people have have to prove all this, but I suppose it’s because of many abuses that it is the way it is.

Again please accept my sincere apologies if it came across as I wasn’t appreciative of your comments.

[Casa]

Fiance visa:
Evidence of a wedding in planning (quotes for venues, invitations, caterers etc).
No free access to NHS facilities until after the wedding and the FLR(M) spouse visa has been issued
Employment not permitted until your wife has her FLR(M) visa
Two visa fees
The 5 year (2.5 x 2.5) qualifying period for settlement (ILR) will only start from the issue date of the FLR(M) visa.

Spouse settlement visa:
Evidence that the marriage has taken place
Free access to NHS facilities on arrival in the UK
Employment allowed
The 5 year (2.5 x 2.5) qualifying period for settlement (ILR) will start from the date of entry into the UK
One visa fee