ADVICE NEEDED - DIVORCE

[richard12]

Hi all,
Hope someone could guide me with correct advice for my case.
I am a Non EU citizen and have been in Ireland for over 7 years. I have been married with my wife (UK Citizen but she lived in Ireland her whole life) for just over three years (3y+4months) and things haven't been going on well so we decided to separate.
At the moment we are still living together but we have started to look for places to move out.
We have lived in Ireland the whole time and we are both professionals and have our jobs. Although we still have a good relation to each other so she would help with anything I might need.
My question is related to if I have rights to apply for residence? (Form EU5 perhaps?) and as I need to be legal in the country because of my work, is there a chance that I have my application being denied for any reason?

[finalversion_2k]

if you guys were here all the time and if you can prove she is exercising her EU treaty right before and at the time of divorce then I'll say you are good to go.. just make sure you are divorce first, second you have all her P60, bills, Lease, PRTB, Bank statements and revenue documents if any.. (and medical insurance, medical insurance need for cases where EU person wasn't working).

[richard12]

if you guys were here all the time and if you can prove she is exercising her EU treaty right before and at the time of divorce then I'll say you are good to go.. just make sure you are divorce first, second you have all her P60, bills, Lease, PRTB, Bank statements and revenue documents if any.. (and medical insurance, medical insurance need for cases where EU person wasn't working).

Thank you for your reply!
I am just not to sure what you meant by "Just make sure you are divorce first" - Do you mean like proper divorced, does this doesn't take like 4/5 years? Or you meant like going to a solicitor to start the process? Sorry, we haven't been looking into this yet, it has been a bit stressful lately with everything going on.

I just had a look into the Form EU5 and the evidences to be provided for Divorce is not very clear for me, if you or anyone could help me to understand the points requested below:
> The decree of divorce or nullity - Asked above
> Evidence of date of initiation of divorce, annulment or dissolution proceedings - ????
> Evidence that marriage or civil partnership has subsisted for at least 1 year in the state - could this be Renting contract, Payslip, P60 maybe??
> Evidence of the activity and residence of the EU citizen at the time of the divorce, annulment or dissolution - could this be again Renting contract, Paylisps, P60??

[finalversion_2k]

> The decree of divorce or nullity - Asked above
Ans: you can't apply EU5 without divorce.. that's mandatory.. ( http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU ... tsFAQs#Q18 ) Read Question: 18.. second in ireland you have to wait, you need to be separated 4 out of 5 years.. Quick option foreign divorce..

> Evidence of date of initiation of divorce, annulment or dissolution proceedings - ????
Ans: they need to know that just to make sure mrrg was lasted 3 years..

> Evidence that marriage or civil partnership has subsisted for at least 1 year in the state - could this be Renting contract, Payslip, P60 maybe??
Ans: Yup That's right (this be Renting contract, Payslip, P60 maybe)

> Evidence of the activity and residence of the EU citizen at the time of the divorce, annulment or dissolution - could this be again Renting contract, Paylisps, P60??
Ans: Right ( this be again Renting contract, Paylisps, P60?? )

[richard12]

> The decree of divorce or nullity - Asked above
Ans: you can't apply EU5 without divorce.. that's mandatory.. ( http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU ... tsFAQs#Q18 ) Read Question: 18.. second in ireland you have to wait, you need to be separated 4 out of 5 years.. Quick option foreign divorce..

Thanks a million again!
So, if I understood correctly, I could not apply now for Residence after divorce because I would have to wait 4/5 years to have it done then I could apply, am I correct?

Considering this, how can I proceed to be able to stay in the country legally with right to work etc. Is there another form to apply or would I inform the immigration, but then would they not cancel my visa?

[finalversion_2k]

@richard12: don't mixed 2 things.. just for understanding let me share the process..

lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated after 3.5 years.. from here first you need to retain your stamp4, for that you will need to fill the EU5 application form with all the required documents(Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60). once you submit these documents department will validate and let you know you retain rights OR Not (means your stamps is valid or not), suppose you received positive feedback then you are good to apply for EU3 long term residency(10 years) without your wife documents As you already retain your rights on your name.

scenario 2: lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated.. but you don't inform the department and after 5 years you direct apply for EU5 long term residency(10 years). Now in EU5 you will need to provide all your wife documents for last 5 years (Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60 for each year). (check page 3,4: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-EUT ... -EUTR3.pdf) Now suppose you received positive response, then you need to bring your wife to GNIB in order to get the stamp.. lets assume again you got the stamp as well, and now you want to say last goodbye to your wife, I mean divorce, again you will need to apply for retention EU5 application with all the documents..

the only escape EU5 retention form is be with your wife till you get the Irish passport.. if you will inform department that you guys are separated then they will demand you apply for EU5 application form, then you will submit EU5 application, then they will demand you to provide decree of divorce, which you don't have as you guys are just separated.

hope above make sense & answer to your questions..

[richard12]

@richard12: don't mixed 2 things.. just for understanding let me share the process..

lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated after 3.5 years.. from here first you need to retain your stamp4, for that you will need to fill the EU5 application form with all the required documents(Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60). once you submit these documents department will validate and let you know you retain rights OR Not (means your stamps is valid or not), suppose you received positive feedback then you are good to apply for EU3 long term residency(10 years) without your wife documents As you already retain your rights on your name.

scenario 2: lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated.. but you don't inform the department and after 5 years you direct apply for EU5 long term residency(10 years). Now in EU5 you will need to provide all your wife documents for last 5 years (Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60 for each year). (check page 3,4: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-EUT ... -EUTR3.pdf) Now suppose you received positive response, then you need to bring your wife to GNIB in order to get the stamp.. lets assume again you got the stamp as well, and now you want to say last goodbye to your wife, I mean divorce, again you will need to apply for retention EU5 application with all the documents..

the only escape EU5 retention form is be with your wife till you get the Irish passport.. if you will inform department that you guys are separated then they will demand you apply for EU5 application form, then you will submit EU5 application, then they will demand you to provide decree of divorce, which you don't have as you guys are just separated.

hope above make sense & answer to your questions..

@finalversion_2k - Thank you for taking time to answer me, I really appreciate it! Your explanation above clarify a lot to me.
What I think it's kinda bizarre is the way that they request a document that you have to wait 4/5 years to have it, so meaning that you can not apply to retain your visa if you decide that the marriage is over.
In case of holding the information and not letting the department know is also tricky, as If you are separating from your partner, obviously you will be living in different places and moving on with your life, which would then affect the application as you have to prove that you were living together with your partner since that point I believe.
In a way the system push you to "lie" and hold the information, or as bad as it sounds keep on with the marriage until you are able to get the passport, as there is no way out in case you want to separate.

[finalversion_2k]

divorce decree is the only document which is time consuming here in Ireland.. And Hack of this requirement is divorce from any other country.

Holding information has another big disadvantage, these days people are receiving letters from departments about to prove their mrrg is genuine or not, they give 4 weeks time to prove this else they will revoke your permissions.. so if your mrrg is finished and they some how find out then you will be in trouble..

that's true, that's what department is doing..

I applied retention of rights last year October and I'm waiting for decision, finger crossed.. whatever I tell you is all from my personal experience..

[richard12]

divorce decree is the only document which is time consuming here in Ireland.. And Hack of this requirement is divorce from any other country.

Holding information has another big disadvantage, these days people are receiving letters from departments about to prove their mrrg is genuine or not, they give 4 weeks time to prove this else they will revoke your permissions.. so if your mrrg is finished and they some how find out then you will be in trouble..
that's true, that's what department is doing..

I applied retention of rights last year October and I'm waiting for decision, finger crossed.. whatever I tell you is all from my personal experience..

I am a bit lost about it and I really dont know what step to take.
Thank you for all your replies and I wish you have a positive outcome from your application!

[finalversion_2k]

I can understand your situation, as I went through last year with same things. you can't hide it yourself from this problem, you have just below 2 options, if not today then tomorrow but you will have to chose one... there was third option which I was trying to explore but it was waste of many and time.. and that option was work permit as I work as software engineer and my company is trusted partner and they were happy to offer me work permit.. but on INIS website they mentioned you can't change your stamp4 EUFAM TO Stamp 1... solicitors they were also giving wrong information..

First of all patch-up with your partner, and give another try to your mrrg..

Second if you think there is no way you guys can be together, OR you guys already start looking other peoples, then I'll say start divorce process in UK,I'm sure she will be get divorced their easily as she is citizen..

[richard12]

I can understand your situation, as I went through last year with same things. you can't hide it yourself from this problem, you have just below 2 options, if not today then tomorrow but you will have to chose one... there was third option which I was trying to explore but it was waste of many and time.. and that option was work permit as I work as software engineer and my company is trusted partner and they were happy to offer me work permit.. but on INIS website they mentioned you can't change your stamp4 EUFAM TO Stamp 1... solicitors they were also giving wrong information..

First of all patch-up with your partner, and give another try to your mrrg..

Second if you think there is no way you guys can be together, OR you guys already start looking other peoples, then I'll say start divorce process in UK,I'm sure she will be get divorced their easily as she is citizen..

Yea, I also work on technology and the company I work would also provide me work permit, no doubt, but I heard the same, you can't move from Stamp 4 to Stamp 1, makes no sense..
If there is one thing I learned living in Ireland and with some friends situation is do not trust in Solicitors, they are just looking for money, it's quite upsetting how they take advantage of people's situation.

Yea, things are not great at the moment that's why we decided to separate but we still loving each other so being back together is always an option. Will see how things go.

Getting divorce in the UK is something that came across my mind, however I checked that they don't accept here in Ireland, so this also could be a waste of time, not sure. Do you know anything about it?

[finalversion_2k]

you sure here they don't accept UK divorce? do you have any reference or link?? I'm just saying because I'm sure UK divorce is acceptable here in Ireland, just wondering whats your source of information..

[DanaMarie]

A divorce in the UK is most definitely recognized in Ireland, provided it is obtained legally and in accordance with Irish law. There are a couple of quirks but a quick internet search will give you the legalese. "A divorce granted anywhere in the UK will be recognised in Ireland provided that one of the spouses is domiciled anywhere in the UK", there is a legal definition of domicile so you might want to look up to make sure you would meet that requirement because the domicile piece seems to be pretty important!

[richard12]

@finalversion_2k and @DanaMarie - Thank you!

Yea, I had a look on internet and apparently I don't think that just the fact my wife is a British citizen would help much as she would have to be living in the UK.

solicitor website link removed by moderator
https://www.thejournal.ie/family-law-br ... 9-Sep2017/

[finalversion_2k]

It's nothing to do with BREXIT as far as it is genuine and follow the proper standards, I know guy personally, who divorced in asian country and apply retention here in Ireland.

lets assume you are right, then this will implement on northern Ireland divorces as well, as they are part of Britain.. I can say this is not correct, it doesn't make sense and logic..

[griffith]

@richard12: don't mixed 2 things.. just for understanding let me share the process..

lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated after 3.5 years.. from here first you need to retain your stamp4, for that you will need to fill the EU5 application form with all the required documents(Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60). once you submit these documents department will validate and let you know you retain rights OR Not (means your stamps is valid or not), suppose you received positive feedback then you are good to apply for EU3 long term residency(10 years) without your wife documents As you already retain your rights on your name.

scenario 2: lets assume currently you are on Stamp4 EUFAM, and you guys are separated.. but you don't inform the department and after 5 years you direct apply for EU5 long term residency(10 years). Now in EU5 you will need to provide all your wife documents for last 5 years (Decree of divorce, bills, joint account bank statements, lease, PRTB, payslips and P60 for each year). (check page 3,4: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-EUT ... -EUTR3.pdf) Now suppose you received positive response, then you need to bring your wife to GNIB in order to get the stamp.. lets assume again you got the stamp as well, and now you want to say last goodbye to your wife, I mean divorce, again you will need to apply for retention EU5 application with all the documents..

the only escape EU5 retention form is be with your wife till you get the Irish passport.. if you will inform department that you guys are separated then they will demand you apply for EU5 application form, then you will submit EU5 application, then they will demand you to provide decree of divorce, which you don't have as you guys are just separated.

hope above make sense & answer to your questions..

What if someone has a valid 1 year stamp4eufam and saperated and divorce proceedings have started.
Would they apply eu3 or eu4?
Also if they do not have their eu citizens last 5 years documents and their partner wouldn't help because they are saperated ?? Or if the applicant can only give a few documents but not all what happens then ???

[finalversion_2k]

are you questioning about 2 different peoples/things?? didn't get your question..

when you get married? when divorce proceeding??

Would they apply eu3 or eu4? people apply EU3 after 5 years on stamp4EUFAM, so if i link to your above line 1year stamp4EUFAM.. you can't apply.

again if you have stamp4EUFAM from just one year that means technically in Ireland you can't apply for divorce.

[griffith]

are you questioning about 2 different peoples/things?? didn't get your question..

when you get married? when divorce proceeding??

Would they apply eu3 or eu4? people apply EU3 after 5 years on stamp4EUFAM, so if i link to your above line 1year stamp4EUFAM.. you can't apply.

again if you have stamp4EUFAM from just one year that means technically in Ireland you can't apply for divorce.

Marriage 2015
Saperated November 2019
Divorce proceedings already started in a foreign country.
Visa valid till jan 2021.
What happens after jan 2021 ???
To retain rights which form to apply.
Please note eu citizen will not help in providing last 5 years documents as they are saperated.

[Ali0857]

can someone help me out please .
now i got Irish citizenship in 2018 .
n i got divorced from her country . my question is what to do now ? shall I bring this divorce papers to immigration or to passport office ??

[littlerr]

can someone help me out please .
now i got Irish citizenship in 2018 .
n i got divorced from her country . my question is what to do now ? shall I bring this divorce papers to immigration or to passport office ??

If you are an Irish citizen, you do not need to inform immigration at all. And passport office doesn't care what your marital status is.

[finalversion_2k]

you get married in 2015 and you said you have stamp4EUFAM from 1 years.. means you get stamp4EUFAM in 2018.. may I ask what was your status from 2015 to 2018??

Also EU citzen is she in ireland?? or left the state??

to retain right you need to fill EU5 below are links and also explanatory guide.. please read explanatory guide first..

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20E ... eaflet.pdf

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-EUT ... -EUTR5.pdf

[Ali0857]

thank you so much for replyin .

[griffith]

you get married in 2015 and you said you have stamp4EUFAM from 1 years.. means you get stamp4EUFAM in 2018.. may I ask what was your status from 2015 to 2018??

Also EU citzen is she in ireland?? or left the state??

to retain right you need to fill EU5 below are links and also explanatory guide.. please read explanatory guide first..

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20E ... eaflet.pdf

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form-EUT ... -EUTR5.pdf

Visa is valid from 2015 expiring in jan 2021.
Eu citizen has not left the state. Just living separately.
Divorce proceedings have started in a foreign country.

Only question is what if we cannot supply last 5 years papers of eu citizen ???

[finalversion_2k]

Straight answer to your question, if you not able to provide her documents it will be very difficult for you, as in first letter they will ask you all her 3 years activities..

[griffith]

Straight answer to your question, if you not able to provide her documents it will be very difficult for you, as in first letter they will ask you all her 3 years activities..

Ok thanks.
This theory doesnt make any sense at all.
How can a Saperated or divorced couple would still provide papers to the immigration after they split.
Theres nowhere writen in the form EU5 that the applicant provides last 5 years history of the EU citizen.
What about providing some papers and not all ???
If all the papers cannot be supplied does that mean deportation????