Heartless government to increase IHS from £400 to £625 as part of hostile policy

[THO]

PM74. The NHS fee is for potential access to the NHS services from day one of arrival, as has been pointed out previously, we accept people who could have serious and long term needs, we do not know, and so the few who require a lot, need to be paid for by someone.

There is a thread on here where one man has brought his elderly mother over, he has paid the NHS surcharge, and she has had a cataract operation. He wondered if he had to pay more (and from his answer I believe he was relieved and seemed surprised), the answer is no. So for a poultry sum, this man's mother has had access to trillions of £'s investment and £K's of surgical procedure.

Plus, I expect this lady will need a lot more care for the rest of her life. So, if you are a British tax payer, do you think it is fair to share the burden of her costs? I don't. The amount most immigrants will pay in national insurance through their wages, will probably never equal the amount they will use if they are taken seriously ill or suffer an accident. And do not forget, they (or their children) will get sick or have minor ailments, (we all do) and use the doctors surgery, they will need medicine and if they are on low income, or it is for their children, it will be free.

If it was such a deterrent, immigration would stop, but people want to live in a better place with more to offer, and are willing to pay this fee.

[FXR_1340]

£625 is a bargain! Speak to someone eg US Citizen and ask them what they think.

To me the issue is not necessarily the IHS but the value of paying for a UK Visa. The UK is a shadow of what it once was. Quite simply its almost impossible to make a decent living in this country. Unless you have bundles of wealth (and/or you are cash only) prepare at best just to get by.

The only way we will renew our spouse visa is if emmigration is not possible.

Getting back to the OP point, why do so many want to come to UK? At least in part it is to gain access to a rediculously cheap healthcare system. Just over 600 quid per visa year. Bargain!

Of course it's a bargain... but only if that's all you pay towards the NHS. If I said to you I'd sell you a loaf of bread for 20p you'd think that good value. If I told you though I'd be charging that on top of the usual price of 60p I charge ordinary customers I suspect you'd ask the question why you should pay more than everyone else for the same loaf of bread. That's what we're asking of non EU migrants... plus of course huge immigration application fees as you raise... and these two things suggest we are creating both a hostile environment towards migrants and a one more so than our competitors. The government announced this increase under the banner of to pay for health tourism... but I doubt it is people moving here or staying here who are the typical health tourist... in fact many are British who live abroad. I very much doubt the healthcare system is at the forefront of many migrants minds... more likely family, employment or study... the reason they're applying for the visa.

I feel your analogy is a wee bit flawed. The 60p people have already paid for the infrastructure to make the production of the bread possible.

The immigration fees are not the Hostile Environment. Once immigrants have paid up and arrived and the govt then begins to put obsticales in the way like undertaking improper (illegal?) deportations then THAT is a hostile environment.

The health tourist is a fact of where we are, is it expats (emmigrants?) who are at least part of the issue? Well it could be argued (and I have no doubt they would) they have already paid in to the system for possibly decades?

With regards why immigrants want to come to UK, well TBH I dont have a clue. Anecdotal info advises illegals travel all across Europe in the hope of getting to UK. I wonder why?

[THO]

FXR "The health tourist is a fact of where we are, is it expats (emmigrants?) who are at least part of the issue? Well it could be argued (and I have no doubt they would) they have already paid in to the system for possibly decades?"

Please explain, I'm not sure I understand your point?

[FXR_1340]

FXR "The health tourist is a fact of where we are, is it expats (emmigrants?) who are at least part of the issue? Well it could be argued (and I have no doubt they would) they have already paid in to the system for possibly decades?"

Please explain, I'm not sure I understand your point?

The quoted post alluded to expats coming home for NHS treatment which does happen. The way the law stands ATM, they are entitled. Should that be permitted? An expat user could argue they had paid into the NHS by way of UK taxes for years, prior to heading off to the sun to spend their retirement.

Not sure any of that is relevant.

UK has immigration laws and charges at least in part due to the levels of illegals in the country. Have heard illegals referred to as "undocumented" BS! They are illegal. What then follows is working illegally. Not paying taxes which is illegal. No contribution to the society they purport to want to be a part of. All this in turn permits shadey employers hire labour at lower than minimum wage and tax free rates which is also illegal.

As I said previously, immigrants are welcome. From any country. Any colour of skin. However it must be by proper and legit channels. My wife and I did it because thats how it must be done. Legally!

Its regretable if some may feel my view is harsh.

[PM74Juve]

£625 is a bargain! Speak to someone eg US Citizen and ask them what they think.

To me the issue is not necessarily the IHS but the value of paying for a UK Visa. The UK is a shadow of what it once was. Quite simply its almost impossible to make a decent living in this country. Unless you have bundles of wealth (and/or you are cash only) prepare at best just to get by.

The only way we will renew our spouse visa is if emmigration is not possible.

Getting back to the OP point, why do so many want to come to UK? At least in part it is to gain access to a rediculously cheap healthcare system. Just over 600 quid per visa year. Bargain!

Of course it's a bargain... but only if that's all you pay towards the NHS. If I said to you I'd sell you a loaf of bread for 20p you'd think that good value. If I told you though I'd be charging that on top of the usual price of 60p I charge ordinary customers I suspect you'd ask the question why you should pay more than everyone else for the same loaf of bread. That's what we're asking of non EU migrants... plus of course huge immigration application fees as you raise... and these two things suggest we are creating both a hostile environment towards migrants and a one more so than our competitors. The government announced this increase under the banner of to pay for health tourism... but I doubt it is people moving here or staying here who are the typical health tourist... in fact many are British who live abroad. I very much doubt the healthcare system is at the forefront of many migrants minds... more likely family, employment or study... the reason they're applying for the visa.

I feel your analogy is a wee bit flawed. The 60p people have already paid for the infrastructure to make the production of the bread possible.

The immigration fees are not the Hostile Environment. Once immigrants have paid up and arrived and the govt then begins to put obsticales in the way like undertaking improper (illegal?) deportations then THAT is a hostile environment.

The health tourist is a fact of where we are, is it expats (emmigrants?) who are at least part of the issue? Well it could be argued (and I have no doubt they would) they have already paid in to the system for possibly decades?

With regards why immigrants want to come to UK, well TBH I dont have a clue. Anecdotal info advises illegals travel all across Europe in the hope of getting to UK. I wonder why?

Most people get a couple of decades of free healthcare in the UK before ever paying NI or income tax. Migrants will have been paying for their healthcare elsewhere.

Health tourism is a small problem.. minor in the scale of the NHS. But it does include Brits who are not ordinarily resident here but easily evade any scrutiny to obtain treatment here. Ironically those probably best placed to prove their entitlement to NHS treatment are currently non EU migrants who pay the IHS.

Illegal immigration is a different issue... we're talking about legal migration and asking (forcing in reality - since you don't get an alternative option) legal migrants to pay to access the NHS. Illegal migrants I imagine are typically very evasive of official state services precisely because of the potential consequences... discovery of status and potential removal. Health tourism certainly to me is something different... that would be about people coming here in some legal way in order to temporarily gain access to the NHS and potentially evade paying the fees either by evasion of discovery of status (not ordinarily resident) or evasion of actually paying the bill.

[THO]

Ah, I see FXR. In fact I know a friend who lives in Thailand, he crashed a moped and broke his collar bone. He came back to the UK to have it straightened, because the hospital there left it crooked. However, he had paid into the NHS for many years, he was probably 55 when he left the UK.

With regards to illegal immigrants, I agree. They believe they should be able to live in the UK, but because they would not qualify for a visa, cheat their way in and are then unable to contribute to society which goes way beyond just NHS, i.e police, street cleaning, schools etc. Again, on this very board is the case of a man who has hidden for 20 years, and was asking for advice on how he could now get a residence visa to stay for good, which apparently he can do since he has enough illegal years here to get a visa. I'm certainly not sure that there should be this route available to anyone, all it does is make things harder and more expensive for those trying to do things right.

It also frustrates me how many helpful people there are on this board, trying to give advice on how illegals can remain here. Most of those advisers are immigrants themselves, and so they should also consider the affect they are having on the legal immigrants visa's, before trying to help illegals. Their court cases to remove them from the UK costs the tax payer a fortune too in legal help and police time etc etc.

[FXR_1340]

Ah, I see FXR. In fact I know a friend who lives in Thailand, he crashed a moped and broke his collar bone. He came back to the UK to have it straightened, because the hospital there left it crooked. However, he had paid into the NHS for many years, he was probably 55 when he left the UK.

With regards to illegal immigrants, I agree. They believe they should be able to live in the UK, but because they would not qualify for a visa, cheat their way in and are then unable to contribute to society which goes way beyond just NHS, i.e police, street cleaning, schools etc. Again, on this very board is the case of a man who has hidden for 20 years, and was asking for advice on how he could now get a residence visa to stay for good, which apparently he can do since he has enough illegal years here to get a visa. I'm certainly not sure that there should be this route available to anyone, all it does is make things harder and more expensive for those trying to do things right.

It also frustrates me how many helpful people there are on this board, trying to give advice on how illegals can remain here. Most of those advisers are immigrants themselves, and so they should also consider the affect they are having on the legal immigrants visa's, before trying to help illegals. Their court cases to remove them from the UK costs the tax payer a fortune too in legal help and police time etc etc.

Couldnt agree more.

It may well be wrong to hike up visa costs. Look at USA, payment is made and then you get on with it. In UK it takes 3 hits to complete. At a cost of circa 2+k per hit its not cheap. However thems the rules. If ya dont like it then thats fine. Move along! Please do not enter illegally as its everyone else who picks up the tab.

[FXR_1340]

£625 is a bargain! Speak to someone eg US Citizen and ask them what they think.

To me the issue is not necessarily the IHS but the value of paying for a UK Visa. The UK is a shadow of what it once was. Quite simply its almost impossible to make a decent living in this country. Unless you have bundles of wealth (and/or you are cash only) prepare at best just to get by.

The only way we will renew our spouse visa is if emmigration is not possible.

Getting back to the OP point, why do so many want to come to UK? At least in part it is to gain access to a rediculously cheap healthcare system. Just over 600 quid per visa year. Bargain!

Of course it's a bargain... but only if that's all you pay towards the NHS. If I said to you I'd sell you a loaf of bread for 20p you'd think that good value. If I told you though I'd be charging that on top of the usual price of 60p I charge ordinary customers I suspect you'd ask the question why you should pay more than everyone else for the same loaf of bread. That's what we're asking of non EU migrants... plus of course huge immigration application fees as you raise... and these two things suggest we are creating both a hostile environment towards migrants and a one more so than our competitors. The government announced this increase under the banner of to pay for health tourism... but I doubt it is people moving here or staying here who are the typical health tourist... in fact many are British who live abroad. I very much doubt the healthcare system is at the forefront of many migrants minds... more likely family, employment or study... the reason they're applying for the visa.

I feel your analogy is a wee bit flawed. The 60p people have already paid for the infrastructure to make the production of the bread possible.

The immigration fees are not the Hostile Environment. Once immigrants have paid up and arrived and the govt then begins to put obsticales in the way like undertaking improper (illegal?) deportations then THAT is a hostile environment.

The health tourist is a fact of where we are, is it expats (emmigrants?) who are at least part of the issue? Well it could be argued (and I have no doubt they would) they have already paid in to the system for possibly decades?

With regards why immigrants want to come to UK, well TBH I dont have a clue. Anecdotal info advises illegals travel all across Europe in the hope of getting to UK. I wonder why?

Most people get a couple of decades of free healthcare in the UK before ever paying NI or income tax. Migrants will have been paying for their healthcare elsewhere.

Health tourism is a small problem.. minor in the scale of the NHS. But it does include Brits who are not ordinarily resident here but easily evade any scrutiny to obtain treatment here. Ironically those probably best placed to prove their entitlement to NHS treatment are currently non EU migrants who pay the IHS.

Illegal immigration is a different issue... we're talking about legal migration and asking (forcing in reality - since you don't get an alternative option) legal migrants to pay to access the NHS. Illegal migrants I imagine are typically very evasive of official state services precisely because of the potential consequences... discovery of status and potential removal. Health tourism certainly to me is something different... that would be about people coming here in some legal way in order to temporarily gain access to the NHS and potentially evade paying the fees either by evasion of discovery of status (not ordinarily resident) or evasion of actually paying the bill.

"Most people get a couple of decades of free health care...." Care to explain that? If you are referring to those up to 20 years old then, please, dont forget their parents have been paying!

The bottom line here is the IHS is a bargain. Yes, if that kind of money isnt available to you it is a PITA. That should not mean going rogue and being illegal.

The UK system is a shit show. No 2 ways about it. But it is what it is and until it changes the rules are the rules.

As for "health tourism" yes it happens and as far as I am aware those who are not entitled must pay. The problem is UK Govt does not pursue. Sorry, unless its life threatening you had better have your credit card with you!

My USC Mom In Law attended opticians when she visited. She paid the going rate. Before my USC wife was eligible she too attended the optician. She paid too.

[secret.simon]

Again, on this very board is the case of a man who has hidden for 20 years, and was asking for advice on how he could now get a residence visa to stay for good, which apparently he can do since he has enough illegal years here to get a visa. I'm certainly not sure that there should be this route available to anyone, all it does is make things harder and more expensive for those trying to do things right.

Just giving a bit of background to the immigration policy in that specific case.

Before 2012, immigration policy in the UK was much more relaxed. Some major policy differences pre and post 2012 were
a) Before 2012, 14 years of continuous residence (both legal and illegal) in the UK led to ILR. After 2012, the threshold of continuous residence was tightened and if there was any illegal residence, only after 20 years residence would a person be granted FLR(FP), which is a pathway of a further 10 years legal residence to ILR. Thus, since 2012, a person would have been resident in the UK for almost 30 years before gaining permanent residence in the UK in such a circumstance.
b) Pre-2012, spouses to British citizens acquired ILR after 2 years and British citizenship after 3 years residence in the UK. There were accusations of abuse of the system and the ILR requirement was changed to the current 2 x 2.5 years visas.
c) There was no Minimum Income Requirement to sponsor a spouse to the UK.

So you can see that immigration policy has tightened considerably.

As regards whether such a route is desirable, it can be argued that illegal migrants don't go away even in the most difficult conditions (look at the number of illegal/undocumented immigrants in the US in spite of the unfavourable immigration climate there currently). What is needed is a pathway to integration, while at the same time not making illegal immigration an attractive alternative to legal immigration. And the current option of a 20 year illegal residence is perhaps the best balance of managing illegal immigrants, without making it too easy (keep in mind that the hostile environment would be very harsh for them, without access to banks, legal housing and in most cases, the NHS).

It also frustrates me how many helpful people there are on this board, trying to give advice on how illegals can remain here. Most of those advisers are immigrants themselves, and so they should also consider the affect they are having on the legal immigrants visa's, before trying to help illegals.

There is a natural tension in the participants of these forums, between legal migrants who are grateful for what they got, while following the rules and migrants who may have, mostly through no fault of their own, fallen foul of the law.

Such natural tensions also exist in society at large, and we have to remember that we have to work and live with one another to the best of out abilities, even when we hate the way the other person's lifestyle impacts ours.

[THO]

Interesting information Simon. I'm not sure if I agree with your point that most people overstay through no fault of their own though, having by chance fallen foul of the law. These people arrive with no intention of going home, at least not until they want to.

There are actually two people on here who have been sent to prison, and are now (no doubt) using the British tax payer (or money gained through illegal activity) to fund lawyers to try to argue that they should be allowed to stay in the UK, and on this forum asking for, and receiving advice on their best argument. The helpful souls giving this advice don't know what crime these people committed, might have been beating someone seriously, or rape or drug pushing, certainly wasn't crossing the road when the red light was showing. Living in the UK is a priveldge and not a right, obey the laws or f off.

Too many times I read the ungrateful attitudes of people who think the UK owes them something, like how free healthcare as is the point of the OP starting this thread.

[Djsuccess]

I was about to make a post on this topic, but on searching the forum I realised someone already did 2 months ago. So no need to start a new one, I can just add my opinion here. I must say that it was interesting reading this thread with the arguments for and against the increase.
• Everyone should pay for the services they use such as NHS.
• The government has the right to charge new immigrants for access to NHS, as applicable in many other countries where people are made to pay before gaining access
• The increases we are seeing now have been documented a long time ago. It's part of the Theresa May's campaign manifesto and I believe it was carried forward to Boris Johnson's manifesto under NHS funding. Theresa May implemented the increase from £200 to £400 and now it's Boris Johnson's turn. The party approves it and it's in the public domain so it's not a new thing.

The only issue I have with IHS is that the immigrants who are already working here and applying to extend their visas shouldn't be made to pay IHS. Because they are already contributing to the NHS via their NI.

[Zerubbabel]

Again, on this very board is the case of a man who has hidden for 20 years, and was asking for advice on how he could now get a residence visa to stay for good

Believe me, I hate this route. This is a life-destroyer. I never ever encourage a man to try that. These 20 years are spent without building anything in life. Just waiting to qualify in the hope you won't get arrested and deported after 18 years.

However, if someone says he has been in the UK for 22 years. I ought to help him. Even if I don't like the crazy thing he did for the sake of 2.5-year residence, I still help him to try to stop that nightmare he lives in.

[THO]

Well Zerr, rather like the way the government will not pay ransom because it encourages other kidnappings, the government should not allow people to stay if they managed to evade the law for 20 years. 20 years without contributing to society or paying tax etc and potentially encourages illegal activity to survive should result in deportation without any question, that would stop people trying.

So, helping someone in who is trying to do the right thing is acceptable, helping people doing the wrong thing so they end up with what they want, encourages them to tell their friends or family the best way to cheat their way into the country, illegally and thus making life hard for the genuine people on this board, and rewards that person for breaking the law.

[Zerubbabel]

In some aspects, this could be interesting like when it comes to human trafficking. I like the Australian slogan "You won't make Australia Home". This dried up the traffic overnight.

A few years ago, I was in Africa and I spoke with a guy who lost his son (17). That young guy dream was to go to Europe at any cost. He paid a trafficker who put a group of them in a rotten boat that sunk in the middle of the night killing most of the passengers. Only a handful were rescued but no one know how many and who exactly drowned that day.

I decided to work with a local media and craft a message for the young people risking their lives. My message was around the lines: "I understand you want to go to Europe. I am not going to talk you out of it. But don't cross the sea because there will be no way you can get papers, get a job and build any meaningful life. Take a few years to learn a language, build skills, study, get a diploma... and with time, if you still want to go, there will be legal routes open to you where you don't need to risk your life... and you will reach your goal faster while keeping safe and legal".

A couple of days after the diffusion of this message, came a response on YouTube. A young guy telling the crowd: They are lying to you. It's not true that you are unwanted in Europe. I crossed the sea. I am alive. I am in Spain. Here are my papers. Here is where I live. We have been welcomed. We received documents, papers, medical care, social assistance, housing... on landing".

Needless to say, I fact-checked the story of that guy and he was telling the truth. He crossed the sea after paying human traffickers and was rewarded by Spain authorities who allowed him to stay in order to encourage more to come.

When we try to prevent people from crossing, we lose because human traffickers are right and we are wrong. They tell them in Europe they will get support, papers, social care... etc. And that's true. So Europe keeps creating incentives to this kind of immigration because it needs some cheap labour / slaves.

Here, I really would wished that Europe were as strict as Australia. But unfortunately, they don't care about the human cost of their slavery. They don't care that for 100 slaves they get, 200 have to drown on they way.

Comparatively, exotic animals trafficking is illegal mainly because when you transport these animals, many will die in the suitcase for a few that make it alive.

[THO]

Zer, you raised some very valid points I agree with. The incentive to get to the UK is so high, just look at all those poor Vietnamese people who perished recently. What a tragedy, and you're right maybe it would not happen so much, if the people who were caught were sent straight back.

I do feel sorry for people who live in such a bad place that they are desperate to escape, but the harsh reality is they need to stay and work to sort their own countries mess, or things will never get better there, and not everyone can go live in a nice safe country, and sadly the UK is not able to take them all.

[Forest2thirds]

Even if it is justified to charge residents on limited leave for the right to use the NHS, they should not be required to pay twice (ie. through IHS and then taxation). At a minimum, there should be some sort of credit equal to the amount of IHS paid which can then be used to offset any income tax, CGT, etc. payable by them.

[THO]

You've missed the point Forrest, the IHS is a payment that goes towards any treatment they may need in the years to come, since the NI that most people pay (possibly in their working lifetime), would be nowhere near enough to cover the cost to treat that patient, if say they got cancer or run over by a car. The extra costs of treating the small percentage of those people who recently arrived to make the UK their home, is rightly shared between those people, and is not then loaded onto those of us who are British.

Why should we (UK tax payers) pay more, so someone else can come to the UK and have very low cost access to NHS? It is not an unfair tax, it is a payment toward the billions of £ it cost to build and run the NHS.

[Daided]

The IHS was introduced in 2015.
The IHS doesn't necessarily go the NHS; it goes to HM Treasury. How that money is used is another story.
Moreover, immigrants have to pay IHS in advance for as many years as their visa application is (so for a 5 year visa is £625 x 5 x number of applicants; Visa fees are on top of that), whether or not they use the NHS.
I think it's quite a smart move to call it IHS, it gives the impression it goes to the NHS, so the average British citizen agrees is justified.

[JB007]

The IHS was introduced in 2015.
The IHS doesn't necessarily go the NHS; it goes to HM Treasury. How that money is used is another story.

No it doesn't. The IHS is held in a fund, which is then claimed from by a hospital who gave the treatment to a person with an IHS, to save their own Trust's budget having to fund that treatment.

The £400 a year IHS did not cover the cost of all the treatment being given to those on an IHS and this is why it will now rise to £625 per year.

In other countries where their healthcare is insurance based, you would have to pay a monthly fee.

[JB007]

I think it's quite a smart move to call it IHS, it gives the impression it goes to the NHS, so the average British citizen agrees is justified.

I doubt that. I would imagine that the average British citizen thinks the IHS fee should have a couple more zeros on the end. But they would rather have the type of immigration systems that other countires have, to protect their healthcare system for their own citizens. Medicals to pass, for those family members not migrating too; and even when a medical is passed, not all visas having access to their full healthcare system and these must buy private insurance too...

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/help-su ... aminations

https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zea ... dical-info

[THO]

Precisely JB. But it is hard to explain to people who think the UK is anti immigration, because like all many other countries we control immigration, that their monthly NI payment taken from their salary does not go anywhere near the amount that they would cost the NHS if they unfortunately needed long term medical treatment that could easily cost £10K's per month, no matter how long they paid something from their salary.

And I wonder what medical treatment I would be able receive if I went to live in Brazil, and became seriously ill or was hit by a bus, and how would it be paid for? Who would cover the cost of the ambulance to come get me?

I actually genuinely do not know the answers to these questions. Does Brazil simply give visa's to people, and then take a small amount each month from their salary for unlimited treatment and medical assistance?

[vinny]

Immigration Health Surcharge increase to £624 delayed.

Immigration (Health Charge) (Amendment) Order 2020 timeline.

[vinny]

Immigration Health Surcharge rises to £624 from 27 October 2020