Entry Clearance Officers Training

[rockyroad]

Dear Board,

I hope that someone can help with regards to one of the worst entry clearance offices in the network.

I have a couple of questions which I hope can be answered here.

1. Until around 8 months ago there was a department based in the UK called the Entry Clearance Office. They were UK based and helped with advice and could actively be involved where there were anomolies or unjust rulings on the application process. They would work with the Entry Clearance officers overseas and were extremely useful. I have been told by the FCO that they were disbanded and no other department available. Is this correct?

2. I am currently sponsoring an overseas P/T student. He applied for a visitors visa this year. Firstly it was refused due to his status as minor. It appeared that the ECO didn't understand that the financial information posted was that of his parents as stated in the form. I pursued this with them and he was then issued a visa. With no letter or confirmation of the mix up. He has visited the UK twice and has now enrolled in a 6 month ELC.

I have provided my support again for his living costs. Which they have accepted. His parents provided information with regards to income and that they could afford the £300 pcm fees. So there should be no problem.

The ECO has refused entry due to the fact of funds. She has also concluded she didn't need to interview as he signed the form confirming everything on the form was above board. She has also used the law of probabilities to back up her ruling.

The obudsman has concluded in her last 3 reports that this part of the Entry Clearance unit is looking for reasons to not issue visas.

I have queried the ruling with the Charge d'affaires and the ECO. The refusal was stamped the 1/8/08 and my student wasn't issued the refusal until the 8/8/08. Also my student was asked to sign the refusal letter confirming the ECO was present. It was not the ECO but one of this new EC Administrators.

I cannot find anyone to help and the EC Unit has not replied to my query.

If anyone can help, I'd be very grateful to them.

thank you

[batleykhan]

Hi

Read this link, it may help you to understand the procedure for such visas

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/chapter12/

[rockyroad]

[quote="batleykhan"]Hi

Read this link, it may help you to understand the procedure for such visas

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/chapter12/[/quote]

Thank you for your help. I am fully versed on the procedure. My concerns are

1. Entry Clearance Officers using the Law of Probabilities and finding reasons to not issues visa, rather than the correct procedure.

2. Entry Clearance Officers not interviewing applicants due to a signature on a form.

3. Entry Clearance Officers not being present at the refusal interview. Also refusing to even discuss with the applicant, once requested an audience.

4. 54% of all student applicants are refused. The PMI and parliamentary obudsman giving grave concerns because of the ECO's overseas.

My understanding is that if you use the law of probabilities then 95% of my students information was correct. They found anomolies of 5%, which with an interview could have been ironed out. But they just refused the visa anyway. It cost my student a lot of funds to get all of their information translated, which has been kept by the embassy.

I am livid that there seems to be no UK governing body that can intervene in such cases. As the Entry Clearance Office in the UK has now been closed.

[Mr Rusty]

"Until around 8 months ago there was a department based in the UK called the Entry Clearance Office"

I never heard of a UK-based office so named, at least as part of a government department. Until (I think) April this year, the UK end of the visa operation was a section in FCO which used to be called 'MVD' - Migration & Visas Department. Since the emergence from IND via the Border & Immigration Agency into the UK Border Agency in April 2008, the visa operation (UK Visas) now comes under UKBA. They don't seem to advertise any UK-based enquiry points except the general number given on the UKBA website.
I don't think you'd have much joy trying from this end anyway, as a pal who specialises in visa consultancy work used to tell me that taking up refusals with MVD only got him referred back to the overseas post.

As you have already overcome one visa refusal in respect of this applicant you appear to know what to do. There is no alternative to contacting the Entry Clearance manager and asking him for a review, dealing specifically with the reasons given in the refusal notice. Funding is a fairly cut and dried thing - either the funds shown are credible and adequate or they aren't. If the ECO has reached a conclusion "on the balance of probabilities", this suggests to me that there were other areas of doubt, and you have to assemble arguments to overcome them - specific reasons, not complaints about bias or the percentage of refusals, which will cut no ice.

Without seeing the entire refusal wording it's not possible to comment further.

[jei2]

If the ECO has reached a conclusion "on the balance of probabilities", this suggests to me that there were other areas of doubt, and you have to assemble arguments to overcome them - specific reasons, not complaints about bias or the percentage of refusals, which will cut no ice.

The balance of probabilities is a killer; it allows ECOs to be highly subjective and the applicant is then forced to second guess if they have any (legitimate) doubts. I've seen refusals on probablility for lack of maintenance and accommodation where the applicant had over £50,000.00 in savings and would have been the 2nd resident in a 5 bedroom house. And this for a visit visa.

I'd focus on the area of doubt as written in the refusal letter and try to address this. Requesting a review does indeed sound like your best bet.

[rockyroad]

Thank you for your help. I find it absolutely disgusting that although the Parliamentary Obudsman has raised serious concerns, nothing is done.

I am at a loss how they can use the law of probabilities? How they can say that they don't need to interview because the applicant has signed the form. Everyone has to sign the form to complete the process.

ECO's have power at their hands. They should be finding reasons to issue visas, not refuse them. Unless there is a serious concern with no history of travel overseas prior etc.

ECU did exist but it was disbanded after the changes.

Not everyone wants to stay here! In my students country it will double his chances of getting a good job at home. I have sent a very large letter with explainations and more documentation......i wait in vain!

Our immigration policies are making it harder for genuine visitors. There is little help or transparency and that should not stand in a democratic society!

[sakura]

2. I am currently sponsoring an overseas P/T student.

Do you mean part-time? International students cannot obtain a visa for part-time courses, so I do hope that you didn't mean this! Be sure that s/he is on a full-time course otherwise the visa would probably be rejected outright.

[Frontier Mole]

Your information is somewhat flawed, the UK ECO thing you talk about has never existed in the UK. There was a part of the old BIA that dealt with in country visa applications but they were not there as a help point.
Other parts of the visa and work permit systems were / are based in the UK but these were all and still are process units.

There was only ever UKvisa's which is the UK hub of the ECO network. This is now incorporated into UKBA.

As for ECO's allowing people into the country - they do and the numbers are published as to what percentages are allowed and from which country. It is for people to justify why they should be allowed to come to the UK, not the UK to justify why they should not. It is not a presumptive right of entry.

Unfortunately your rose tinted view of immigration is a million miles from what actually happens. Many students do become overstayers and from certain countries more so than others. So it comes down to proving that you meet the rules to a higher standard in some places than in others. It is risk based in effect. You would no doubt say stacked against rather than set out in favour. You would be right. A USA student will get a visa far easier than someone from Nigeria or Pakistan.

As for the ombudsman - no one in the industry takes the slightest bit of notice to what he says for one very good reason - he has no effective power. He can moan at the government and that is about it.

As for help and policies. The UK has some of the clearest policies and simplest immigration routes of the developed world. All the information is published on the internet and is clear in its explanation and intent. Trying saying that of the USA!

I am dismisive of your views as they are uninformed and you plainly have not taken the time and trouble to research the immigration position of the student prior to the application. Obviously want to blame someone for the refusal and automatically must think it is wrong but that is not the case.

The UK is closing its doors and is putting up barriers to immigration so it is becoming tougher to get here. Accept it and get on with it, just wait until they introduce the next level of immigration control and we will actually see people putting their money on the line to bring someone over - we will soon see a lot less applications.

[rockyroad]

My information is not flawed. I and various other members of my family dealt with this department in 2002. I believe that was the name they were known as. In fact they were extremely helpful in a different circumstance, which I do not want to discuss here.

As for your slightly arrogant views, I'd just like to say I came onto this board for advice from like minded individuals.

From the message you have posted, I can see you are not in that category.

thank you everyone for your help.

[Frontier Mole]

Your information is not flawed - you are having a laugh!! - you are quoting 2002 as your reference point of course it is flawed. How many changes of name has the Home Office Immigration side gone through since 2002 never mind changes in law and policy have gone by since then! The unit you so catagorically state exists plainly no longr exists, if it ever did.

As for like minded - I am certainly not in your camp and glad to say so. Those that have made the effort, researched their position, considered the immigration laws and rules and have some claim to be agreived by the imposition of a bad decision - I am with them. Not some bleating "oh I am hard done to" person because they got refused because plainly they did not meet the rules.

The forum is not for crusades it is for getting advice. Your opening tact was lets all complain because my nice little student is not allowed in the country. He was refused, the reasons stated and if he had an thought of getting into the UK or staying on he better appeal.
APPEAL - that independent tribunal thing that looks at the immigration decision. The thing that you want to happen to this decision? By the looks of it he will lose at appeal as by your own admission he is a part time student not even a degree course at that. The rules are there to set the requirements, no matter what way you go about it, if you do not meet the rules you can not get a right of entry.

There are hundreds on this forum who face this reality and are trying to deal with it. Yes they go to their MP's, which most agree will achieve little, they strive to make new applications and hope that they get through some to no avail. They accept something that you seem to have a problem with - the rules.

Bottom line does the person meet the rules? Have you even looked at the rules? Is he applying for a student visa as you seem to indicate he was over on a visitors visa before. Did he study while over on the visitos visa?

[rockyroad]

If you read my original post, I have spoken to the FCO - who told me this division had been closed down "8 months ago". i was hoping that someone knew of another department in existence.

As for the information, I have already shown I have read the last 3 obudsman reports with regards to this area. Yes, I completely researched this prior to application. Including the Borders Agency and Visa UK sites.

My first problem with this ECO was due to their own training and not understanding the information written on the form. Thats why a visa was issued - without an apology! Had I not pursued them, then that stamp would still be in the passport of my student. He has visited twice to see if he liked the UK. He has had a placement test and enrolled with a reputable school.

As for comments to me, I have asked questions which most of the members have not taken offence to.

I am a law obiding, tax paying individual who has worked for 20 years. I am trying to help someone have the same opportunities that I had as a youngster.

I don't have the same views as you, if people want to stay in this country and work, pay taxes and add value. I don't have any problem with them. I was asking for help if anyone had the same issue.

Its not poor old me, and how dare you make such a judgement. If in my job I turned round to my customers and used such terms as the law of probabilities and I don't feel that.......I would be sacked.

I deal with facts, I looked at all of my students information and the guidance notes, and yet again the ECO has not understood her own procedures.

And before you comment further you have not seen my students information or their refusal letter. If you had, you might not be so rude.

[PaperPusher]

rockyroad

Are you sure the term "law of probabilities" was used? They should have used something like "on the balance of probabilities" which is the civil standard of proof.

Is this person a part time student?

Regards

[Jeff Albright]

The UK has some of the clearest policies and simplest immigration routes of the developed world. All the information is published on the internet and is clear in its explanation and intent. Trying saying that of the USA!

I disagree. Although I agree that most of the information (not all of it, as some of the BA internal procedures are classified and not disclosed to general public - for example, the referral procedures from the overseas posts to BA) is openly available on the websites, it does not mean that the UK has the clearest and simpliest immigration routes as you put it.
The UK Immigration Law is actually very complex interlacing with many other aspects of the UK and European laws as well as the extensive UK immigration case law.
Other countries have simple and straightforward rules but no other law to rely on. For example, the Australian immigration system is quite simple and straightforward. It is simpler than the UK one as it gives you immediate right of residence in the country (and security) if you fulfil the criteria. It does not mess you around with any temporary periods or probationary citizenships and then repeated changes to the length of those periods over time.
However, if you do not meet the rules, you cannot get in no matter how you try - there are no Human Rights laws here and the asylum system is simple - if you do not qualify, you are returned the same day. There are no 10 or 14 year rules here - if you manage to stay illegally for 1 or 20 years, they can still remove you from here no matter when you are caught. It is not like in the UK when due to the administrative system incompetency and extremely broad and complex legal system you can sometimes drag your case for decades and eventually get your right stay through series of appeals, which was one of the reasons for the UK becoming a "soft touch" and being overswarmed with immigrants.

Therefore it is still a matter of question which system is simpler and clearer.

[Frontier Mole]

Jeff,
I said SOME of the clearest etc etc.... not the clearest.
I would love the immigration role AUS style, straight forward and no nonsense you are either in or out.
As for UKBA not publishing certain internal policy - that is the case, anything to do with national security, criminal detection, the warnings index set up, the forged and counterfeit documents units these are all there to protect the country. The information is obviously sensitive and knowledge of it is detrimental to maintaining an effective immigration control. The ECO referral system is part of these controls so of course publishing the criteria is not going to happen.

Immigration law is distinct from the immigration rules for entry. The rules are clear and although written in typical civil servant language does set out the requirements for seeking entry under the various parameters fairly well. This is what I was referring to.

All the other bits make it a bit more challenging but then again it keeps me in a job

[Frontier Mole]

Rockyroad,

I have seen more refusal letters than you have had dinners, the content varies little as they come off a template. The phrase balance of probabilities is the stock wording used where it is not conclusive that the application does not fulfill the criteria. The only time that this phrase is not used is where there is conclusive proof that certain facts preclude the visa being granted. This would be backed by evidence available to the ECO. Use of a false passport, still being subject to a deportation order, criminal record in the UK etc etc.

The ECO is not there to check out every document supplied, the duty is on the applicant to supply the paperwork that supports their application. If the application is unclear and / or does not meet the rules it is refused. Simple as that. The ECO's deal with thousands of cases per year in the busy posts. Student visas are the second lowest level of visa, they do not get priority when there are settlement visas to be dealt with. This is why the applicants are rarely invited to interview.

I go with Paperpusher - what country is the applicant from and is he applying for part time study? Both these points will indicate why the applicant finds himself in the position he is in.

ps - as for an appolgy from an ECO because you got the visa after reconsideration - now that is funny