Foreign Birth Registration

[Flatcap_Julius]

EMAIL SENT TO SIMON COVENEY'S SECRETARY:

Dear Minister Coveney,

Sorry I missed you on my recent visit to Dublin. It seems you left St Stephens Green some 20 minutes before I arrived. You recently made a statement in the Oireachtas in relation to FBR processing on 9th September 2021 and I have some questions regarding this and other related issues.

1) How exactly do you propose to bring the FBR processing time down to pre-COVID levels by the end of 2021?

2) Why would you deem such a level of improvement to be acceptable, given that this will still leave applicants waiting for an extensive period of time?

3) Given your previous statement in April 2021 that the Passport Service can process up to 120,000 passport applications a week when up and running, and that you expected the passport backlog "would be cleared within weeks", why, almost 6 months later, has the passport application backlog not been cleared? 

4) You mentioned that your department "takes its legal responsibility in relation to Foreign Birth Registration processing very seriously". How can you seriously make such a claim when FBR processing has been virtually shut down for the best part of a year?

5) The wording of your statement in relation to your department "talking its legal responsibility in relation to Foreign Birth Registration processing betrays that your department views it as little more than a legal obligation and something of a chore. Do you not realise why people wish to reconnect with their ancestral history and avail of their rights to benefit from living and working in the EU without red tape, to visit their loved ones, to travel on holiday?

6) What is your understanding of the cultural and economic benefits that FBR brings to the Irish nation? 

7) You stated that your department would publicly announce specific dates for the resumption of FBR "in the coming weeks". What is the maximum number of weeks for this announcement to be made?

Given your statement back in April that the passport backlog was expected to be cleared "within weeks", and that it still, several months later is not cleared, why should anyone have any confidence in your statement in relation to the forthcoming public announcement in relation to FBR processing?

9) You mentioned that your department is considering (in the medium term) to deliver changes to the FBR process to increase efficiencies and improve the customer experience as part of the Passport Reform Programme. What things are you looking to change?

10) Why, given the particularly dismal customer service, scant, virtually nonexistent updates, and horrible, unpleasant and unhelpful attitude of many of the live chat agents, why are improvements not more of an urgent priority?

I await your reply.

[Flatcap_Julius]

AUTO-REPLY FROM SIMON COVENEY:-

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email.

If your correspondence is related to Cork South Central constituency, or if you are a constituent, my constituency office will be in touch as soon as possible.

Correspondence related to my work as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Defence will be forwarded to my Ministerial Office for attention.

Yours sincerely,

Simon Coveney, TD

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Defence



Beartas ríomhphoist an Oireachtais agus séanadh. oireachtas.ie/ga/email-policy/
Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. oireachtas.ie/en/email-policy/

[duffy1867]

With all the waiting and no information or communication so many are despairing.

The FBR and passport processing is a clearly a big issue for the whole country. The passport delays featured in a Live phone-in on RTE radio just a few weeks ago. If you want to hear some of the issues experienced it gives some insights into the widespread frustrations with the service.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/21994595/

I listened to this earlier and must say that I found it depressing - I have been feeling upbeat about the FBR and things picking back up, but after that I'm not too sure. It also struck me as concerning how they started the show with words to the effect of ‘we all know about the long standing and never ending passport problems, and it’s boring to discuss too much, but let’s have a special show to discuss…’

If this passport backlog which was to be cleared in 8 weeks (over a year ago), is longer than ever, and the passport is priority over FBR, then I really struggle to see how it will be A) cleared anytime soon and B) there be enough capacity to let staff work on FBR applications again.

If passports cannot be sorted quickly for current citizens, I worry about the levels of priority for potential citizens under FBR (and probably rightly so...)

[Flatcap_Julius]

With all the waiting and no information or communication so many are despairing.

The FBR and passport processing is a clearly a big issue for the whole country. The passport delays featured in a Live phone-in on RTE radio just a few weeks ago. If you want to hear some of the issues experienced it gives some insights into the widespread frustrations with the service.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/21994595/

I listened to this earlier and must say that I found it depressing - I have been feeling upbeat about the FBR and things picking back up, but after that I'm not too sure. It also struck me as concerning how they started the show with words to the effect of ‘we all know about the long standing and never ending passport problems, and it’s boring to discuss too much, but let’s have a special show to discuss…’

If this passport backlog which was to be cleared in 8 weeks (over a year ago), is longer than ever, and the passport is priority over FBR, then I really struggle to see how it will be A) cleared anytime soon and B) there be enough capacity to let staff work on FBR applications again.

If passports cannot be sorted quickly for current citizens, I worry about the levels of priority for potential citizens under FBR (and probably rightly so...)

I must say I feel your suspicions are correct, Duffy. Looking at Simon Coveney's words from a statement analysis perspective I draw the following conclusions:-

1) He is trying to be anodyne.

2) To the DFA, FBR processing is merely a chore that they do with some reluctance. When Mr Coveney states that they take these obligations "VERY seriously", none of his words indicate any acknwledgement or understanding of the human / personal situations tied in with FBR. Coveney mentions that the DFA has a "legal obligation" to process FBR applications - in the same way that I have a "legal obligation" to pay my mortgage - not that I particularly want to.

3) The actions do not back up the words , and Mr Coveney appears to repeatedly be quite vague when referring to timescales.- Coveney stated in the excerpt from last April that the passport backlog could be cleared "within weeks". Several months later, it is still not cleared. Similarly, in response to multiple questions in the Oireachtas, Coveney used a similar phrasing, stating that public announcements re: specific dates for the resumption of FBR processing would be made "in the coming weeks". Although this turn of phrase hints at imminence, it could technically mean any time - particularly up to 51 weeks, and possible longer still. I spent years interviewing politicians and this is a trick that they often employ. There are many similarities between the language of politics and the language of advertising. They often hint and suggest rather than make any definite and meaningful statements. Their blurb is designed to befuddle and discombobulate and to confuse, rather than to clarify. This is definitely maybe the case with Coveney from what I've seen thus far.

4) The DFA is very process-driven and changes do not usually happen fast. Coveney makes mention of the DFA's "phased" improvement plan which aims to "increase efficiencies and improve customer experience". (I may have paraphrased that slightly however I can get the actual quote for you, should you wish). What is particularly interesting here is that Coveney implicitly admits that his department is not as efficient as it could be. Also the term "customer experience" is different from "end-user experience". The word "customer " implies a paying user (though this need not be the case as customers can avail of free services) and someone who merits a certain level of respect (as in the phrase: "the customer is always right"). Again, Coveney's language only hints at this and does not make any definite statements about the human side of things. It's hint, hints, hints all the way with that gentleman! Coveney suggests that improvements to FBR processing may be forthcoming "in the medium term" in line with a future phase in his department's improvement plan - which again is very vague - however "medium term" is different from the "short term" - and could mean many, many months, if not years, down the line. Coveney is hinting that the improvements and the plan, are not going to implemented any time soon.

Having picked up on all the above points, I put some specific questions to Coveney to try and drill down to some specifics answers and cut through all his spin and "sleight of mouth". (Se the questions in my earlier post ). Given that he neglected to elucidate to his fellow Oireachtans, it is doubtful that he will reply to a skinny bloke in a flatcap. T'won't stop me trying though, that's for sure! Our Mr Coveney has a way with words. He has clearly kissed the old Blarney Stone a few times on the way to his Cork constituency. Well, he might have the Gift of the Gab and he might be slippery as an eel, however old Flatcap can give him a run for his money! I am tenacious and insightful and although I have calmed down over recent weeks, I do feel there is a simmering injustice here. Yes you've got people like me who want to work abroad and have the right to live in our second and third homes, but then you have also people with far more pressing concerns, people with dying relatives, people at their wits' ends with worry. His well-worn lines are starting to ring hollow as the timescales become ever drawn-out and we see little to no sense of urgency and compassion from the DFA and Mr Coveney.

Best to you all.

Regards,

Flatcap

[SLwlss]

I've been using the forum to see how applications have been progressing and found it helpful. So I'm posting my timeline

Application submitted: 19/10/2019
Documents received: 18/11/2019
Confirmation address email: 6/09/2021
Added to register email 6/09/2021

I responded as soon as I got the address confirmation email. They got back to me in a couple of hours saying I had been added to the register and it would take 6-8 weeks to receive the certificate.

Things are moving and I hope this helps people

Congratulations! Your dates are getting close to my wife's (application: 10 Oct 2019, docs received 18 Oct). Out of interest were your corroborating documents from First world English speaking countries or did you have any from "less efficient" ones?

My wife's application consists of 3 Kenyan docs and 2 South African docs so if the Irish have to check with those Governments then I'll pencil in a 2035 approval date...

[maishun]

I've been using the forum to see how applications have been progressing and found it helpful. So I'm posting my timeline

Application submitted: 19/10/2019
Documents received: 18/11/2019
Confirmation address email: 6/09/2021
Added to register email 6/09/2021

I responded as soon as I got the address confirmation email. They got back to me in a couple of hours saying I had been added to the register and it would take 6-8 weeks to receive the certificate.

Things are moving and I hope this helps people

Congratulations! Your dates are getting close to my wife's (application: 10 Oct 2019, docs received 18 Oct). Out of interest were your corroborating documents from First world English speaking countries or did you have any from "less efficient" ones?

My wife's application consists of 3 Kenyan docs and 2 South African docs so if the Irish have to check with those Governments then I'll pencil in a 2035 approval date...

Why do you think your FBR application takes so long? Is the Kenyan government so slow?

[SLwlss]

I've been using the forum to see how applications have been progressing and found it helpful. So I'm posting my timeline

Application submitted: 19/10/2019
Documents received: 18/11/2019
Confirmation address email: 6/09/2021
Added to register email 6/09/2021

I responded as soon as I got the address confirmation email. They got back to me in a couple of hours saying I had been added to the register and it would take 6-8 weeks to receive the certificate.

Things are moving and I hope this helps people

Congratulations! Your dates are getting close to my wife's (application: 10 Oct 2019, docs received 18 Oct). Out of interest were your corroborating documents from First world English speaking countries or did you have any from "less efficient" ones?

My wife's application consists of 3 Kenyan docs and 2 South African docs so if the Irish have to check with those Governments then I'll pencil in a 2035 approval date...

Why do you think your FBR application takes so long? Is the Kenyan government so slow?

Yes, very slow. I applied for additional copies of 2 of the documents I used in the application in May 2019 through my local Kenyan embassy and am still waiting. They found the one in Dec 2020 but have still not issued it to me yet so hopefully the FBR team don't require any direct government-government verification on documents.

[Angelo_2019]

Thank you all it’s a relief. I left it for about 18 months and phoned December 20 to be told it was on the pile next to do. I then tried several web chats and go no where.

I was so angry come July this year when it had been over 2 years. So I emailed the passport email address with all my dates and communication. A week later I had a phone call.

My application was not complete. I was missing my dads if as we are estranged. I had to send over his siblings birth and death certificate and things went quickly then.

I think they are processing all the ones they can that are straight forward and any that are incomplete or complicated leaving until some of the backlog is sorted.

I haven't heard anything at all for 25 months, good to see that the passport email got a reaction.

At this point I'll give them another month to see if they really reopen in October. If I don't hear from them (26-27 months), I'll try that address, especially since I included all documents listed on the Irish and US consulate sites.

[Angelo_2019]

I listened to this earlier and must say that I found it depressing - I have been feeling upbeat about the FBR and things picking back up, but after that I'm not too sure. It also struck me as concerning how they started the show with words to the effect of ‘we all know about the long standing and never ending passport problems, and it’s boring to discuss too much, but let’s have a special show to discuss…’

If this passport backlog which was to be cleared in 8 weeks (over a year ago), is longer than ever, and the passport is priority over FBR, then I really struggle to see how it will be A) cleared anytime soon and B) there be enough capacity to let staff work on FBR applications again.

If passports cannot be sorted quickly for current citizens, I worry about the levels of priority for potential citizens under FBR (and probably rightly so...)

Unfortunately, I think the July written answer makes the situation fairly clear:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id ... 7-27a.2337

They allocated the FBR staff to other work and are so overwhelmed by the backlog I can't see them catching up before the middle of next year at the earliest.

* As noted, the passport backlog increased from 90,000 to 120,000 - it is growing, not being cleared.
* The FBR backlog is over 30,000 applications, but they've never managed to process 20,000 in a year.

* The news article talked about opening in Sept as gradual, full operation not until Oct 22.

* Postings on this board show processing times of 18-28 months for normal applications, with the occasional lost document. It is clearly not in date order.

[maishun]

Hello, I have a question. How can the FBR Department distinguish the authenticity of documents in other countries? How can they tell the true from the false?

[Fbrlad]

Hello, I have a question. How can the FBR Department distinguish the authenticity of documents in other countries? How can they tell the true from the false?

These documents have to be submitted authenticated as per vienna conviction. In EU a simple notar is accepted, outside, foreign affairs dept stamp is required and in banana republics an additional notar stamp required

[Flatcap_Julius]

I listened to this earlier and must say that I found it depressing - I have been feeling upbeat about the FBR and things picking back up, but after that I'm not too sure. It also struck me as concerning how they started the show with words to the effect of ‘we all know about the long standing and never ending passport problems, and it’s boring to discuss too much, but let’s have a special show to discuss…’

If this passport backlog which was to be cleared in 8 weeks (over a year ago), is longer than ever, and the passport is priority over FBR, then I really struggle to see how it will be A) cleared anytime soon and B) there be enough capacity to let staff work on FBR applications again.

If passports cannot be sorted quickly for current citizens, I worry about the levels of priority for potential citizens under FBR (and probably rightly so...)

Unfortunately, I think the July written answer makes the situation fairly clear:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id ... 7-27a.2337

They allocated the FBR staff to other work and are so overwhelmed by the backlog I can't see them catching up before the middle of next year at the earliest.

* As noted, the passport backlog increased from 90,000 to 120,000 - it is growing, not being cleared.
* The FBR backlog is over 30,000 applications, but they've never managed to process 20,000 in a year.

* The news article talked about opening in Sept as gradual, full operation not until Oct 22.

* Postings on this board show processing times of 18-28 months for normal applications, with the occasional lost document. It is clearly not in date order.
[/quote

According to Simon Coveney when the passport office is up and running they process 120,000 passports a week. Assuming that this is true, even if the office were to run at half capacity they should still be able to clear the backlog in a couple of weeks, and at a quarter capacity, within a month. With all the extra staff they are recruiting one would think they would be able to get through this. Mr Coveney has stated that they plan on getting to FBR processing back to pre-pandemic levels (12-18 months processing time) by the end of 2021. It's pretty much one of the only quantified and relatively specific indications he has given in regards to FBR processing.

[Flatcap_Julius]

Thinking about it, if the passport backlog is 120,000 and they are having a phased return to the office between now and 22nd October, it would probably be more likely towards the end of the year before they are start to significantly tackle FBR. This would be consistent with the time frame stated by Mr Coveney. It will be interesting to see what specific dates and details will be contained in the announcement he is purporting will be made "in the coming weeks" - whenever that may be.

The legal obligation to process FBR (which Mr Coveney has acknowledged) aside, what about the moral obligation to keep applicants informed. It seems that the delays owe rather more to procedural and cultural issues at the DFA. They would appear to see themselves as something of an enforcement / regulatory body rather than as a service. It was interesting to note Mr Coveney using the words "customer experience" when he spoke about the planned phased improvement programme alluded to by Mr Coveney (the one that is set for the "medium term" and thus not happening any time soon). His choice of words suggests that there is a somewhat distant plan to change the focus on applicants, considering them more as "customers" and valuing their "experience". I wonder how Mr Coveney is gathering feedback and evaluating his department's performance. I am sure that, if surveyed, the vast majority of applicants / customers would be unhappy with the service. As mentioned by Joe Duffy in the radio program, the HSE seem to be relatively efficient. Certainly this has been my experience - they were a million times better than our UK GRO in terms of getting birth / death / marriage certificates from them, however the UK Passport office processed my (UK) passport renewal extremely quickly and without any fuss at all. I don't know how representative my experiences are, however all indications seem to be that there have been longstanding issues with Ireland's Passport Office or more specifically the attitude of the Passport Office and their lack of consideration for need for their services.

[Luna2019]

Hi everyone. I applied for FBR for my kids over 2 years ago. But good news! The applications have been approved.

We applied in early August of 2019. Their certificates arrived this month (September 2021).

I am now applying for passports. Anyone have any advice there? I believe it says that you must submit your original country of origin passports with the application. For us, those would be US passports. I hate giving up those originals. But is that the procedure? Have I understood that correctly?

Many thanks again for this forum. I hope that others are able to report good news soon.

[Flatcap_Julius]

Here is a contact link for SImon Coveney. Maybe we should start contacting him about these FBR delays:

https://www.dfa.ie/about-us/contact-us/ ... llbGQuIjt9

[Flatcap_Julius]

Hi everyone. I applied for FBR for my kids over 2 years ago. But good news! The applications have been approved.

We applied in early August of 2019. Their certificates arrived this month (September 2021).

I am now applying for passports. Anyone have any advice there? I believe it says that you must submit your original country of origin passports with the application. For us, those would be US passports. I hate giving up those originals. But is that the procedure? Have I understood that correctly?

Many thanks again for this forum. I hope that others are able to report good news soon.

Hi Luna,

Congratulations and well done! Let's hope your kids get their golden harp passports soon!

Regards,

Flatcap

[Flatcap_Julius]

Hi everyone. I applied for FBR for my kids over 2 years ago. But good news! The applications have been approved.

We applied in early August of 2019. Their certificates arrived this month (September 2021).

I am now applying for passports. Anyone have any advice there? I believe it says that you must submit your original country of origin passports with the application. For us, those would be US passports. I hate giving up those originals. But is that the procedure? Have I understood that correctly?

Many thanks again for this forum. I hope that others are able to report good news soon.

Hi Luna,

Congratulations and well done! Let's hope your kids get their golden harp passports soon!

Regards,

Flatcap

[Flatcap_Julius]

Hello everyone,

Flatcap here with a link to a hot story published 4 hours ago. Seems like ministers are planning for a vote of no-confidence in Simon Coveney. It makes VERY interesting reading! Here's the link to the full article:-

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/p ... 50557.html

In summary, ministers are calling for a vote of no-confidence in him after he appointed Katherine Zappone in a senior role without having gone through the correct procedures. Ms Zappone hosted a gathering for 50 peopl at a posh hotel, breaching COVID regulations. There was some controversy about text messages sent between Simon Coveney, Katherine Zappone and Leo Varadkar and whether or not they were deleted.

A key quote from Coveney is as follows:-

"“I have to say this hasn't been my finest month in politics since this issue became a political issue. I should have dealt with it a lot earlier, with a lot more detail and a lot more transparency".

The language he uses here is astonishingly frank - for him. He later denies any wrongdoings. One wonders why, if he hasn't done anything wrong, is he so embarrassed?

Interestingly his comments about having ought to have dealt with things earlier, with greater detail and more transparency could also quite easily apply to the passport / FBR situation, wouldn't you say?

Regards,

Flatcap

[BrexitEscapee]

For the record I would like to apologise to everyone for how I carried on before. I was really stupid, worrying about my job in Luxembourg and not being able to live in my cottage in Brittany. Ever since I owned it I have never spent more than 90 days there so it is not a huge issue. As for working in the EU, there will be...

Julius. Since you wrote this, you've dominated this thread with multiple posts, many made in the early hours of the morning. The fact remains that you only put in your FBR application 3 months ago so, even before Brexit or Covid, would still have had at least 12 months waiting in the queue. Yet you've taken up residence here, filling every page with posts, most of which are your own campaign and don't actually provide any assistance or information to users with the FBR application process. With regards to your campaign to put pressure on the Irish Government to allocate more resource to FBR processing, I think most of us realise it's just naïve. Like you, I listened to the RTE radio phone-in show but what I heard were lots of frustrated Irish citizens complaining about the problems they are having with the processing of their passport applications or renewals. FBR was not mentioned once. There is no political pressure from Irish voters over FBR because it is of negligible importance to them, unlike the processing of their own passports.

I'm sure that, regardless of what I or anyone else says, you are going to spend the next 2 years filling these pages with your abstract thoughts. So can I make one small request: when you quote someone's already lengthy post, can you at least cut it short, as I have done to your quote above, to avoid massively lengthy posts with the same quotes being repeated several times on every page? Hopefully, this will prevent the forum ending up as pages and pages of Julius posts, with other people's contributions getting lost amongst it.

[joemac41]

Hi everyone. First tim, long time. Been lurking the last few years, becuase this is the only place I can get any type of timeline.

Applied online Dec 12, 2019
Papers arrived in Dublin: JAN 22, 2020

As you can see, right before the pandemic, so I'm hoping before the end of the year. My better half's application is a month behind mine, so I hope that will come in soon too.

That being said, I would like to see less complaining about the backlog and more people putting up dates in this thread, because I think that's what most people who are looking here want to see where they are on line.

From what I have seen, I think someone who was Nov. 19, 19 got their cert, I might be wrong, but if anyone is later on the dates, please let me know and of course, I'll keep everyone informed of mine with a Jan 2020 date.

Thanks in advance to everyone who posted their timeline, it helped keep my sanity at least.

[maishun]

Dear Mai The notarial certificate which was just received on Monday has to be verified for authenticity and the witness needs to be contacted also. As previously advised, until such time as the application is fully reviewed and compliant with entitlement to Irish citizenship your details will not be entered onto the Foreign Birth Register. I take it that your child will be able to apply for a Chinese passport and will not be stateless – I am also aware that as a Chinese citizen you cannot hold dual citizenship.

Will they really contact the witness to check the authenticity of the documents?

[maishun]

I would like to ask you if anyone met FBR and said to you: your documents are not authentic and you are not allowed to pass the application. Have you ever encountered such a thing?

[Fbrlad]

Hi everyone. I applied for FBR for my kids over 2 years ago. But good news! The applications have been approved.

We applied in early August of 2019. Their certificates arrived this month (September 2021).

I am now applying for passports. Anyone have any advice there? I believe it says that you must submit your original country of origin passports with the application. For us, those would be US passports. I hate giving up those originals. But is that the procedure? Have I understood that correctly?

Many thanks again for this forum. I hope that others are able to report good news soon.

Hi Luna
How come you need to submit your original irish passport if you are already irish? Your American passport is irrelevant here unless you dont have an irish passport (which strange given the fact that your kids applied for an FBR).

By the way, did they ask you for updated photos for the kids? If so, how long it took them to approve afterwords? Also the date on certificate vis-la-vis asking for photos date, what was it?

I applied for my son: his birth cert, fbr and consent form - thats it (says that when you fill the application online and pay)

[Muscat]

I would like to see less complaining about the backlog and more people putting up dates in this thread, because I think that's what most people who are looking here want to see where they are on line.

Exactly. I just scroll past hot-air posts. (eg 109 posts in under 3 months )

I applied 19/12/2019, docs received 23/12/2019.
I’m hopeful of hearing something this year.

[Luna2019]

fbrlad and all:

I reread it. You do need to send them a government-issued photo id, but if you live outside of Ireland, it can be a certified copy. It does not need to be the original. It's not an Irish passport that they ask for, just a state-issued photo id. It also asked for my Irish passport number. (I have an Irish passport because I was born Irish; my kids now have FBR but not passports.)

I was not asked for updated photos at any time but my kids were young adults/teens when we applied, not babies.

You sent in a birth certificate, the fbr, and consent, and that's it? Everything went through? My form does ask for government-issued photo id.