Switzerland and Schengen

[Plum70]

Thanks Siggi and Republique. You are right about Switz; for the few times i've been through Geneva my passport never got stamped. We will still exit via Ferney Voltaire just in case we can get one in my passport (and for a nice round-about ride!)

Thanks again you two.

By the way, the initial topic was addressing Switzerland's position in the Schengen area: My hubby and I were at the Swiss embassy last week to find out if non-EEA family members (visa nationals) in possession of a EEA residence card will be able to travel to Switz w/out a visa. The simple answer is no (not even for family members of Swiss nationals). The officer did say that the finer detail will be ironed out over time but at best schengen visas could be issued gratis for non-EEA family members of Swiss nationals. Also the swiss schengen visa will be valid for all of Schengen and any exemptions will be specified on the vignette

[charles4u]

Thanks Siggi and Republique. You are right about Switz; for the few times i've been through Geneva my passport never got stamped. We will still exit via Ferney Voltaire just in case we can get one in my passport (and for a nice round-about ride!)

Thanks again you two.

By the way, the initial topic was addressing Switzerland's position in the Schengen area: My hubby and I were at the Swiss embassy last week to find out if non-EEA family members (visa nationals) in possession of a EEA residence card will be able to travel to Switz w/out a visa. The simple answer is no (not even for family members of Swiss nationals). The officer did say that the finer detail will be ironed out over time but at best schengen visas could be issued gratis for non-EEA family members of Swiss nationals. Also the swiss schengen visa will be valid for all of Schengen and any exemptions will be specified on the vignette

You are very right abt that, when holding any residence permit/card from any EU/EEA country u dont need a visa for switzerland.

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... titel.html

[Plum70]

Yes Charles, but this ceases to be the case when Switzerland joins the Schengen area from the 12th of December. Consequently, anyone who would normally require a visa to enter Switzerland (even non-EEA/EU/Swiss Family members in possession of a residence card) will still need to apply for a Schengen visa. The officer did say that non-Swiss family members MAY be able to get the Schengen visa for free but it this not guaranteed yet.

No doubt it will take some time before the 'free movement of persons' agreement becomes a total reality. A bit tricky for Swtiz. as they are not EU/EEA members even though they have special arrangements with them.

[fassadlr]

Hi,

I'm travelling to Switzerland on the 20th Dec and only now realised that I might need a Schengen as i'm south african. I have an ILR and is married to a British Citizen.

Do I still need a schengen after the 15th Dec whne Switzerland joins the Schengen scheme?

THanks!

[Richard66]

...(even non-EEA/EU/Swiss Family members in possession of a residence card)...

Knowing the Swiss, I would wait to see if this is so. For years now, even before joining Schengen, they have honoured residence cards from all EEA countries. They even post online a facsimile of all residence cards valid for entry. Why would they now suddenly change policy? After all, Directive 2004/38 also applies to them.

If you take a look at the link Charles kindly provided us and go further:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/etc/medialib/da ... tmp/GB.pdf

you will notice the first two facsimiles refer precisely to family members of EEA citizens in the UK and to family members of Swiss nationals in the UK. Why would these be scrapped?

[Ben]

After all, Directive 2004/38 also applies to them.

Does it? I didn't know that. But Switzerland is neither in the EU nor EEA..

Directive 2004/38/EC defines a citizen of the Union as "any person having the nationality of a Member State".

This would, therefore, appear to exclude EEA and Swiss nationals, since they do not fit in to that category.

Thinking about it, why then, does the UK (and possibly others?), include Swiss and EEA nationals in it's interpretation of the Directive?

Unless, have I missed something here..?

[Richard66]

It is the question of free movement, to which Swizerland is a signatory, even if not being a member of an EU state. Free movement is defined (also) in the Directive. The UK is by no means alone in its interpretation. In France (I was living there at the time), from the moment the Directive was transposed into national legislation, Swiss citizens no longer needed a residence card and the same for Italy: Swiss citizens apply for the same documents as, say, UK citizens.

For the purposes of free movement the EU is virtually identical to the EEA. If tomorrow my wife and I decide to settle in Swizerland or Norway we can and now questions asked.

[Ben]

Didn't know that. Thanks Richard!

[Richard66]

Benifa, I have been reading up a bit: formally I am wrong: the Directive itself does not apply directly, but the same provisions apply as different treaties have been signed between the EU and Swizerland, so, virtually it does, in that there is little difference between one and the other. They even include (in the Swiss interpretation it seems) the need for the non-EEA family member to be lawfully resident in another EEA state prior to moving to Swizerland! EEA family members are also allowed to work, though they need to communicate their intention to the authorities beforehand. Why, I do not know.

So that this is more than idle talk on my part, take a look at this:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... er_eu.html

[Ben]

Thanks Richard.

They even include (in the Swiss interpretation it seems) the need for the non-EEA family member to be lawfully resident in another EEA state prior to moving to Swizerland!

Oh dear! And I suppose the ECJ judgement of the Metock case doesn't apply to Switzerland, as it's not an EU Member State, nor is it an EEA country?

Are the Swiss free to implement their own provisions, albeit virtually identical to those in Directive 2004/38/EC, while having no obligation to acknowledge ECJ rulings (which, in the case of Metock, appears to refer to "Member States" only - not EEA states, and not Switzerland)?

Or have I supposed wrong in this, too?

[Richard66]

There you have me, but I notice on this page of their site, the Swiss place a link to Eur-Lex:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... _-_eu.html

This says something.

About the Metock, reading the PDF brochure (link in my previous post) there was no mention to legal residency.

I found this:

Family Reunion
Holders of an EU/EFTA permit are entitled to family reunion, regardless of the nationality of their family members. The family usually includes the spouse (or registered partner in homo-sexual couples) and children under 21. It includes parents and children over 21 if they are financially dependent on the main permit holder. If family members of EU/EFTA nationals do not have EU/EFTA nationality, they may be subject to visa requirements when entering Swit-zerland before having received their family reunion permit.

Taken from here:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/etc/medialib/da ... EUEFTA.pdf

[Plum70]

Hi,
I'm travelling to Switzerland on the 20th Dec and only now realised that I might need a Schengen as i'm south african. I have an ILR and is married to a British Citizen.
Do I still need a schengen after the 15th Dec whne Switzerland joins the Schengen scheme?

Yes, you will need a schengen visa. See http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... tml#a_0007
My understanding from the officer I spoke with at the Swiss embassy is that the initial implementation of the Schengen agreement will be a blanket one requiring all visa nationals to obtain schengen visas (irrespective of whether they are UK residents (temp/perm), EEA residence card holders) to enter Switzerland from 12th Dec. However, I suspect that this condition MAY be relaxed later on (for non-EEA family members of EU/EEA/Swiss/British nationals) as the officer rightly pointed out that Switz. has had little or no problems with the broad spectrum of UK residents holding valid visas/permits going in and out of the country.

[Plum70]

Duplicate post deleted

[flyboy]

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf


And
Switzerland!
The Directive does not apply in relation to Switzerland. However,
you can enjoy the right of free movement and residence also in
Switzerland on the basis of the 1999 EU-Swiss Agreement on Free
Movement of Persons and the 2004 Protocol. These rights are more
limited than those foreseen under the Directive.

[flyboy]

After all, Directive 2004/38 also applies to them.

Does it? I didn't know that. But Switzerland is neither in the EU nor EEA..

Thinking about it, why then, does the UK (and possibly others?), include Swiss and EEA nationals in it's interpretation of the Directive?

Unless, have I missed something here..?

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/em2006/uksiem_20061003_en.pdf

7.12 In addition to EEA nationals, the Regulations have also been applied to nationals from Switzerland and their family members so as to avoid having to apply a slightly different free movement regime to such nationals and family members. The Swiss free movement agreement is not automatically amended by this Directive. For operational effectiveness we wish to provide the same rights for Swiss nationals as given to EEA nationals in these regulations. Operationally it would be very difficult to attempt to run two EEA regimes conferring very similar rights. EFTA and Swiss nationals constitute a very small percentage of overall caseload.

[Ben]

Thanks flyboy!

[scrudu]

Wow, once again, all I can say is Thank God for this forum!

My husband and I (him Indo with Stamp 4 Irish visa, me Irish) had booked to fly to Switzerland from 12-15 December. I rechecked the Visa Requirements when booking the flights (2 months ago) and info all said that Stamp 4 Residence Permit (photo on website) was evidence enough to enter Switzerland for temporary stay. From this topic, it seemed that it wasn't the case anymore.

I called the Switzerland embassy who confirmed that he'd require a Swiss visa for entry during the Changeover period (12 Dec-12 Jan). They said he should fill out an application form, submit evidence and bring it to the Embassy. They said it would take 24 hours to process. So fingers crossed, all will be well

[Plum70]

I called the Switzerland embassy who confirmed that he'd require a Swiss visa for entry during the Changeover period (12 Dec-12 Jan). They said he should fill out an application form, submit evidence and bring it to the Embassy. They said it would take 24 hours to process. So fingers crossed, all will be well

Srudu, have a read of these guidelines for your application: http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/rep ... mpnot.html

[scrudu]

Yes, although this info doesnt seem to be on the Irish version of the site. The list looks pretty similar (although a lot shorter) than the usual list for Schengen Visa application so we can have that documentation easily:

- 1 completed and signed application form
- 1 passport photograph (undamaged and of recent date)
- Flight booking via Switzerland to final destination or package tour confirmation by travel agent
- Valid passport and passport copies
- Copy of your UK-residence-permit
- Medical insurance
- 1 self-addressed stamped envelope for registered delivery
- hotel reservation
- Proof of funds such as; latest bank statements, saving book, credit card, travellers cheques in the amount of £50.00 per day (£25.00 for students)

Do you think I've missed something?

[Richard66]

I do not know, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the reason the Swiss will not be accepting British-issued visas and residence cards has more to do with the UK's not joining Schengen than with Switzerland's joining. As I mentioned earlier (maybe not very clearly) for years now — I remember checking during August 2007 — Switzerland has accepted most residence cards (though not short-stay visas) issued by EEA countries, Schengen or not, (and the USA) en lieu of a visa. I believe EEA-family members status should not change, but I can see why holders of British long-stay visas are not covered: it would be a loophole that will only be closed by the UK's accepting Schengen as a fact of life. I do not know what the point of view up there is, but it seems to me down here that in the end the UK and Ireland do themselves more harm by holding aloof than if they joined.

[Plum70]

Yes, although this info doesnt seem to be on the Irish version of the site. The list looks pretty similar (although a lot shorter) than the usual list for Schengen Visa application so we can have that documentation easily:

- 1 completed and signed application form
- 1 passport photograph (undamaged and of recent date)
- Flight booking via Switzerland to final destination or package tour confirmation by travel agent
- Valid passport and passport copies
- Copy of your UK-residence-permit
- Medical insurance
- 1 self-addressed stamped envelope for registered delivery
- hotel reservation
- Proof of funds such as; latest bank statements, saving book, credit card, travellers cheques in the amount of £50.00 per day (£25.00 for students)

Do you think I've missed something?

That looks pretty water-tight to me! Make sure you lodge your application before 30th Nov. when Swiss visas will no longer be issued.
Bon voyage et joyeux Noel!

[scrudu]

Thanks Plum70. Getting all those doc's done now and into the Embassy tomorrow so fingers crossed! I'll post back with outcome.

[Plum70]

The Swiss are usually very efficient and reasonable so i'm almost certain it'll be wrapped up in a flash.

[flyboy]

Switzerland's entry into Schengen has finally been approved today in Brussels. As mentioned in earlier threads, effective as from the 12 December 2008.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest ... 2000&ty=nd

[86ti]

Some more details here.

There are still some pitfalls:

• * Switzerland will vote on the free movement of persons next February (includes the provisions of the directive I suppose), necessary to comply with Schengen/Dublin
  * the agreement will be automatically cancelled if Switzerland doesn't comply
  * Switzerland will have to adapt it's alien act
  * and more...