Naturalisation reckonable residence question

[ycl6008]

Hi guys,

I'm hoping to apply for the Irish citizenship hopefully in the next few years. Wonder if someone could kindly advise on my situation.

My reckonable residence started from Jan 2019:
- 2019 - 2020: <6 weeks of time out of Ireland each year
- Between 2021 - 2022 I spent a consecutive time of 5 months abroad for work reasons (2.5 months each year. I also spent additional days abroad later in 2022).
- 2023: I was abroad for work several times in total of ~4 months.
- 2024 I will be traveling for 6+ months for personal reasons.

Questions:
1. My understanding is that 2019 and 2020 can count as two reckonable years of residence (correct me if wrong). If this the case, do I need to deduct the times abroad in those two years and add them to the last year before application? ie. I need to have 1yr+12wks continuous residence before my application.
2. Can 2021 and 2023 count as reckonable years? (I worked for an Irish company so can provide employer letter explaining that I traveled for work).
3. I guess I'll have to scrap the whole years of 2022 and 2024 since I was abroad for too long?
4. Say in worst case scenario, none of 2021-2024 can count as reckonable years of residence, will this long gap affect my future application?

Any input will be much appreciated!

Many thanks
Linda

[Vadrar]

You can have 70 days absent and still count 365 now. The 6 weeks limit has been replaced.
So 2019 and 2020 count for 365 + 365.

You need 1825 qualifying days within the last 9 years. So no year is a write off as such, but if there are absences over 70 days you can only count days actually in ROI as reckonable. So the years you are out 70+ just count days you were actually in the State and accumulate them. You need to keep residing until you hit 1825.

Last year before submission doesn’t allow an accumulation of days though- you basically need to stick to fewer than 70 days absence.

You could apply and ask for work travel to be ignored, but this is notorious for having a mixed reaction. Some applications are accepted and some aren’t. There’s also a 100 day allowance that the department can choose to apply in extreme situations - but as ever this is unpredictable.

The other thing you may need to watch if your immigration permission. If you are in ROI on a stamp many of them become invalid with absences beyond 3 months (even for work). And naturalisation applications with big gaps can highlight this and cause stamp revocation. We’re supporting a case like this at the moment. There are various remedies but they all involve delay and anxiety and are best avoided.

[ycl6008]

You can have 70 days absent and still count 365 now. The 6 weeks limit has been replaced.
So 2019 and 2020 count for 365 + 365.

You need 1825 qualifying days within the last 9 years. So no year is a write off as such, but if there are absences over 70 days you can only count days actually in ROI as reckonable. So the years you are out 70+ just count days you were actually in the State and accumulate them. You need to keep residing until you hit 1825.

Last year before submission doesn’t allow an accumulation of days though- you basically need to stick to fewer than 70 days absence.

You could apply and ask for work travel to be ignored, but this is notorious for having a mixed reaction. Some applications are accepted and some aren’t. There’s also a 100 day allowance that the department can choose to apply in extreme situations - but as ever this is unpredictable.

The other thing you may need to watch if your immigration permission. If you are in ROI on a stamp many of them become invalid with absences beyond 3 months (even for work). And naturalisation applications with big gaps can highlight this and cause stamp revocation. We’re supporting a case like this at the moment. There are various remedies but they all involve delay and anxiety and are best avoided.

Hi Vadrar, thx so much for the explanation!

I am on stamp 4 at the moment - is this one of those stamps at risk of being revocked if absences over 3 months were found out?

Sounds like I better off starting the 5 year timer all over again if I didnt want to risk losing my stamp 4..

[Vadrar]

You can have 70 days absent and still count 365 now. The 6 weeks limit has been replaced.
So 2019 and 2020 count for 365 + 365.

You need 1825 qualifying days within the last 9 years. So no year is a write off as such, but if there are absences over 70 days you can only count days actually in ROI as reckonable. So the years you are out 70+ just count days you were actually in the State and accumulate them. You need to keep residing until you hit 1825.

Last year before submission doesn’t allow an accumulation of days though- you basically need to stick to fewer than 70 days absence.

You could apply and ask for work travel to be ignored, but this is notorious for having a mixed reaction. Some applications are accepted and some aren’t. There’s also a 100 day allowance that the department can choose to apply in extreme situations - but as ever this is unpredictable.

The other thing you may need to watch if your immigration permission. If you are in ROI on a stamp many of them become invalid with absences beyond 3 months (even for work). And naturalisation applications with big gaps can highlight this and cause stamp revocation. We’re supporting a case like this at the moment. There are various remedies but they all involve delay and anxiety and are best avoided.

Hi Vadrar, thx so much for the explanation!

I am on stamp 4 at the moment - is this one of those stamps at risk of being revocked if absences over 3 months were found out?

Sounds like I better off starting the 5 year timer all over again if I didnt want to risk losing my stamp 4..

Yes stamp 4 generally requires absences no greater than 3 months per year. Littlerr has posted about this several times, worth a forum search, eg:

ireland/how-long-can-you-stay-outside-o ... 03568.html

Your stamp 4 can also be revoked on re-entry to ROI after an absence by immigration staff. This is the typical revocation route; more common than via naturalisation.

[Vadrar]

Here’s a thread mentioning revocation because of absence and the revocation was also backdated.

ireland/stamp-4-revoked-t295009.html

[ycl6008]

Here’s a thread mentioning revocation because of absence and the revocation was also backdated.

ireland/stamp-4-revoked-t295009.html

My god this is awful.. I wonder if this was just one of the few cases or stamp 4 being revoked is actually common enough in reality?

Also, would the revocation generally have negative impacts on future travel/immigration plans in other EU countries?

[Vadrar]

Here’s a thread mentioning revocation because of absence and the revocation was also backdated.

ireland/stamp-4-revoked-t295009.html

My god this is awful.. I wonder if this was just one of the few cases or stamp 4 being revoked is actually common enough in reality?

I don't know national numbers. We have a few a month reaching out to our support centre for help because their Stamp 4 has been revoked due to absences. But there has to be many more people who have absences who aren't affected, so it definitely doesn't happen to everyone with absences

Also, would the revocation generally have negative impacts on future travel/immigration plans in other EU countries?

This will depend on whether the Stamp 4 is gained through EU Family or through work permit. General EU immigration is not my area, so you'd need to confirm with an EU immigration lawyer if any of what I say next is critical to you. My understanding is that if you are EU Family and travelling with or to the EU citizen into the EU your immigration history isn't relevant; their rights to be joined by you prevail and you can enter. Travelling with an EU citizen is pretty clear cut and tends to work smoothly; travelling to an EU citizen can be harder to prove and there are instances of people with negative Stamp 4 (or other stamps) history being denied Schengen entry because the immigration official didn't believe they were travelling to meet their EU family. Grey area, and subject to a lot of disputes and counterclaims.

My understanding is that most cases where Stamp 4 is via EU family the stamp usually ends up being re-instated. But it can easily take a year and involve a lot of anxiety, bureaucracy, and often legal fees and personal life upheaval.

If the Stamp 4 is gained via work permit and then revoked, then yes, travel into the Schengen and UK can be a problem for some time. Of course it makes the naturalisation application messier too.

Immigration history becomes (essentially) irrelevant if you become an EU citizen and want to enter eg Schengen.

No matter how the Stamp 4 is gained, tourist travel to eg US, Australia, Canada, Singapore etc etc tends to be refused if any immigration stamp was refused or revoked, and residency immigration can be affected too but tends to be viewed case by case.

[Vadrar]

Also the 3 month absence limit mentioned by littlerr relates to work permission Stamp 4. EU citizens can be absent up to 6 months I believe and still be considered to be resident. I don't know what the limit is on EU family stamp 4 members. And of course, naturalisation or permanent/long term residency calculate their acceptable residency in their own way, so these absences that are acceptable for retention of a Stamp aren't necessarily meeting the requirements of change of immigration status.

[ycl6008]

Here’s a thread mentioning revocation because of absence and the revocation was also backdated.

ireland/stamp-4-revoked-t295009.html

My god this is awful.. I wonder if this was just one of the few cases or stamp 4 being revoked is actually common enough in reality?

I don't know national numbers. We have a few a month reaching out to our support centre for help because their Stamp 4 has been revoked due to absences. But there has to be many more people who have absences who aren't affected, so it definitely doesn't happen to everyone with absences

Thanks so much Vardar. This is super helpful.

Do people usually receive a warning letter/email before the revocation? I feel there has to be some kind of notice/headsup by the immigration before they offically revoke the stamp.. (or am I being too naive)

I guees another thing I'm quite curious is that for people whose stamp 4 (gained via critical work permit) is revoked, are their absences usually for an extended period of time (eg. over 6 months)?

[Vadrar]

Here’s a thread mentioning revocation because of absence and the revocation was also backdated.

ireland/stamp-4-revoked-t295009.html

My god this is awful.. I wonder if this was just one of the few cases or stamp 4 being revoked is actually common enough in reality?

I don't know national numbers. We have a few a month reaching out to our support centre for help because their Stamp 4 has been revoked due to absences. But there has to be many more people who have absences who aren't affected, so it definitely doesn't happen to everyone with absences

Thanks so much Vardar. This is super helpful.

Do people usually receive a warning letter/email before the revocation? I feel there has to be some kind of notice/headsup by the immigration before they offically revoke the stamp.. (or am I being too naive)

As in, is there a warning letter saying 'we're concerned, if your absence continues we may move to revoke?' No, I've never heard of this (but as ever, seek professional immigration advice - I'm not a lawyer) and I can't see why they would. Immigration permissions are always at the discretion of the state; they don't owe you anything. You owe them compliance with the conditions if you want to keep it.

The first people know of it (IME, YMMV) is when they are informed a decision has been taken - whether this is when standing at the airport immigration desk or receiving a letter at home. And as in the case in the link above, people can discover the decision is backdated, so the opposite of warning can take place - it can be retro-dated. The person can (usually) appeal or apply again (though of course being able to appeal or apply again doesn't mean the applicant will get a decision they like.)

I guees another thing I'm quite curious is that for people whose stamp 4 (gained via critical work permit) is revoked, are their absences usually for an extended period of time (eg. over 6 months)?

The acceptable absence is regarded as 3 months, not 3 months plus. Stamps like work based 4 are issued on the presumption that the applicant is residing, and intends to reside, full time in Ireland. Any absence beyond 3 months in a year (for work visa based Stamp 4 or Stamp 1 or whatever) may (and has) trigger a cancellation/revocation. We're supporting someone now whose permission was revoked after 2 lots of 2 month absences in a year, and most of our other cases are similar (4 months or 4.5 months; a 6 month absence would be considered a fairly egregious breach of conditions.) As ever, there are always specifics of the individual case involved, and many people are absent and aren't caught and discretion can be applied by the immigration officer leading to really divergent experiences. But the guideline is 3 months absences are acceptable and more is not. If you're concerned, keep your absences under 3 months to avoid stamp revocation/naturalisation impact/long term residency impact/travel hurdles to other countries. It is a key reason people apply for naturalisation - so their permission to be in Ireland is more resilient.

To add: a history of repeated absences seems to be particularly problematic. When I think about the cases we are supporting they are typically repeat absence offenders. So, their 4 month absence is an issue, but it seems to have been absences over previous years as well which tips the view of immigration.