section 11(1) of BNA 1981 - British otherwise than by descenbt

[secret.simon]

Hi team,

Any further thoughts on my wife‘s father being born in pakistan in 1941 which at that time was british india?

The short answer is that it is irrelevant. There is a much longer answer with at least three different reasons as to why it is irrelevant, but I can't be bothered to type it out now.

In British India, those living in British ruled provinces were British subject, while those who lived in princely states (the yellow parts of the map) were British Protected Persons (BPPs). So, for a start, it would matter if your wife's grandfather was born in a British province or in a princely state.

Then, after 1948, those British subjects in the Dominions of India and Pakistan who did not become Indian or Pakistani citizens after independence remained British subjects but without CUKC status. In modern parlance, British subjects without citizenship.

Your father-in-law's passport states that he is a "British Subject, Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies". That means that he acquired CUKC status.

Assuming that his father (your wife's paternal grandfather) was not born in a British colony (legally speaking, India was not a colony.), the only way your father-in-law would have acquired CUKC status would have been by naturalisation or registration.

Did you check both naturalisation and registration records with the National Archives?

Also check your mother-in-law's records. They may lead you to your father-in-law's records.

At this point, I am strongly inclined to suggest that your best option would be to move back to the UK en famille and register your children as British citizens after three consecutive years in the UK.

[dr_cox]

We have first tried to find a registration / naturalisation certificate in his old things. No joy so far. I was asking as I was hoping that between my wife‘s letter from HO and her father having a passport predating her birth from 1975 could be used to infer that she could only have become a citizen if he had been otherwise than by descent and thus not having a naturalisation document would be tolerable by a caseworker. I mean, how else would he have been let in the country and work…. ???

The online record of a person with the same name as my wife‘s father is from 1980. no birthdate. He would not have had a passport had he been nationalised only in 1980 if the passport is from 1975.
will phone the archives tomorrow. Hopefully they have more on file than what’s visible online….

Thanks for all your patience!

[secret.simon]

between my wife‘s letter from HO and her father having a passport predating her birth from 1975 could be used to infer that she could only have become a citizen if he had been otherwise than by descent

I highly doubt that caseworkers in the Home Office would infer anything on a matter as important as citizenship. I think they would expect proper documentation.

Keep in mind that sometimes British citizenship by descent can be acquired from a British citizen by descent (though not automatically). For instance, if your children are registered under Section 3(2) or even 3(1), they will be British citizens by descent themselves and their citizenship will be based on their British citizen by descent parent.

EDIT: Scrutinse your father-in-law's and mother-in-law's passports to see if there is any stamp of writing that indicates if or when they were naturalised or registered. This is not a feature of modern British passports, but it may have been mentioned in older passports.

You may also find this old thread interesting.

[dr_cox]

Dear All,

the old passports only mentioned the right to abode that my father in law had at the time.

The national archives apparently found his document under the following sections:

HO 334 - Home Office: Immigration and Nationality Department: Duplicate Certificates of Naturalisation, Declarations of British Nationality, and...
Subseries within HO 334 - 1948 British Nationality Act: Duplicate Certificates of Registration as Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies
Subsubseries within HO 334 - Registration as citizens of UK and Colonies:

No online preview available but not a problem as we ordered (had to) a certified copy anyway. Still waiting for delivery.

I understand that this would make him "otherwise than by descent"? However, do we have to prove this somehow further as I thought "otherwise than by descent" was introduced only later through one of the other nationality acts, 1981 possibly? or am completely missing something here?

Best wishes and thanks in advance!

Cheers

[OrlandoAlbert804]

I've thoroughly read the entire thread, and it's truly fascinating to follow the unfolding saga. It's interesting to note that one can easily request the Passport Index Cards (PICs) for all UK passports issued by UK Consulates abroad and the Home Office in the UK up until the introduction of machine-readable passports in the early 1990s.

For instance, you can request the PIC for a passport issued by the UK Consulate in Karachi, the UK Consulate in Buenos Aires, or the Home Office in the UK, up until 1992.

What is a Passport Index Card?
A Passport Index Card (PIC) is an official record originally created by UK Consulates and the Home Office to document the issuance of UK passports. These cards are now stored with Her Majesty's Passport Office (HMPO) and can be accessed through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.

Information Contained in Passport Index Cards
PICs often reveal fascinating and nationality-relevant information, such as:

• Nationality Status: The nationality status of the passport holder.
  Endorsements: Information on where the passport was endorsed for travel.
  Children: Details about the holder's children, including whether they were registered at the consulate. Only children under the age of 16 could be registered.

How to Request a PIC
To obtain a scan of a PIC, you can submit a FOIA request to the HMPO FOI Team. Below is a sample request for a hypothetical individual, such as a Pakistani person born in Karachi prior to independence:

#######################
#######################
TO: foirequests@homeoffice.gov.uk

Subject: FOIA Request for Passport Index Card

Dear HMPO FOI Team,

I am writing to request a scan of the Passport Index Card under the Freedom of Information Act. The details are as follows:

• Name of Passport Holder: [Full Name]
• Place of Birth: Karachi
• Date of Birth: [Date of Birth]
• Passport Issuance Location: UK Consulate in Karachi
• Approximate Date of Passport Issuance: [Approximate Date]

Please provide the passport index card pertaining to the above-mentioned passport, and all other traceable passports issued to the individual in question in PDF-format attached to an email. Furthermore, provide an information table in a separate response document.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

[Your Full Name - otherwise they will reject it under section 8(1)]
[Your Contact Information]

#######################
#######################
Read more here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... le-version

[dr_cox]

Dear all,

thank you for everyone's input so far and bearing with us. The new idea of OrlandoAlbert804 was great as well but probably / hopefully not necessary. Unless we can use it to We received the national archive copy and it clearly says that this was a registration certificate of my father in law.

Now we need to get the marriage certificate and have it translated. We were informed that it was very tattered and in a bad state (obviously around 50 years old).... if it is beyond recognition, what would be the next steps? any other chance to prove marriage at the time of birth of my wife? Her mother said when they moved over my wife was mentioned in her mother's passport?

thanks for your continued support!

best wishes

[secret.simon]

We were informed that it was very tattered and in a bad state (obviously around 50 years old)

You should be able to request a copy of the marriage (and also birth and death certificates) from the appropriate authorities of the jurisdiction where those events occurred.

As your wife's family is from Pakistan, presumably either NADRA or the relevant Union Council may be the best people to advise on where to get a copy of the marriage certificate from.

We received the national archive copy and it clearly says that this was a registration certificate of my father in law.

Is it dated to before the birth of your wife? And was it issued in the UK? Does it state what section of the British Nationality Act was it issued under?