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Kayalami, other Moderators Please help-UK(M) Query

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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Smit
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Kayalami, other Moderators Please help-UK(M) Query

Post by Smit » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:11 pm

Kayalami, other Moderators,

I would be grateful for your opinion on the following case (this is correspondence between a friend, born in 1978 and a commonwealth citizen (xxx) and his immigration adviser (yyy) in connection with the possibility of an application under the UK(M) rules. My friend's younger brother was born in 1984 and is British, my friend is not:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for you e-mail. I would like you to be clear on the distinction so I will try to explain further. The difference between your case and your younger brother's is that you were born prior to
01/01/1983 (the commencement date for the British Nationality Act 1981).
Persons born overseas to British mother's prior to this date can only register as a British Citizen if they are not only born between the appropriate dates and would also have become a Citizen of the UK & Colonies if females had been able to pass on citizenship at that time, but also that the applicant would have personally acquired the right of abode. Your brother is treated in a different way by the legislation because he is born after your mother would have been reclassified as a British Citizen (otherwise than by decent) on 01/01/1983. This in effect meant that your mother was able to pass on her citizenship as a British Citizen which she had not been able to do for you while she was a Citizen of the UK & Colonies.

I hope this clarifies the position for you.

Best regards,

yyy

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx
To: yyy
Subject: RE: British Nationality matters


Dear yyy,

Many thanks for your opinion below. I am still not exactly clear what the distcintion is between my brother's and my case, bearing in mind that the aim of the legislation was to allow women to pass on nationality to their offspring (to remove the gender bias).

Many thanks and best regards

xxx

-----Original Message-----
From: yyy[
To: xxx
Subject: British Nationality matters


Dear xxx,

Many thanks for your recent e-mail and for previously sending your papers to us in order that we may assess your eligibility to apply for British citizenship on the basis of your late mother being a British Citizen with the right of abode at the time of her passing. Please accept our apologies that we have been unable to reply sooner.

To register as a British Citizen pursuant to the provisions of Section 4C British Nationality Act 1981 (as inserted by Section 13 Nationality, Immigration & Asylum Act 2002) we must be able to evidence that you satisfy three grounds; namely:

1. You were born after 07/02/1961 but before 01/01/1983; and

2. You were born to a mother who was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time and you would have been a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if it had been possible for women to pass on citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies to their children in the same way as men could; and

3. Had you been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, you would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom and would have become a British citizen on 1 January 1983.

On assessing the documents that you kindly provided we can observe that you do meet the requirements of points 1 and 2 above. However, we are regrettably of the opinion that had you been a Citizen of the UK & Colonies and would not have become a British Citizen on 01/01/1983.
This is because your mother appears to have obtained the right of abode via Section 2(1)(c) Immigration Act 1971 as a result of her having spent 5-years residence in the UK prior to 01/01/1983. For you to have had the right of abode in the UK you would have had to have satisfied one of the following criteria:

a) If you were a Citizen of the UK & Colonies who had that Citizenship by his birth, adoption, naturalisation or registration in the UK; or

b) You were a Citizen of the UK & Colonies born to or legally adopted by a parent who was a Citizen of the UK & Colonies at the time of your birth or adoption and the parent either -

(i) then had that citizenship by his birth adoption, naturalisation, or registration in the UK; or

(ii)has been born or legally adopted by a parent who at the time of that birth so had it; or

c) You are a citizen of the UK & Colonies who has at any time been settled in the UK and Islands and had at that time (and while such a
citizen) been ordinarily there for the last 5-years or more; or

d) You are a Commonwealth Citizen born to or legally adopted by a parent who at the time of the birth or adoption had citizenship of the UK and Colonies by his birth in the UK or in any of the Islands.

It is notable from the above that your mother obtained the right of abode via 5-years residence in the UK and this does not enable you to acquire the right of abode as would have been the case for example if your mother, father of one of your grandparents had been born, adopted, registered or naturalised in the UK. For you to gain the right of abode through 5-years residence in the UK it is you who must have resided in the UK for 5-years not your mother. If it so happens that one of your grandparents were born, adopted, registered or naturalised in the UK please inform us of such circumstances as this may ultimately alter our advice.

It can be noted from the above that although you would have been able to derive Citizenship of the UK & Colonies from your mother at the time of your birth (had it been possible in law for mothers to pass on this status to their children at that time) you would not have had the right of abode in the UK and thus regrettably you are not in our opinion eligible to register under the new provisions for persons born to British Mother's introduced by the Nationality, Immigration & Asylum Act 2002. You younger brother would however, have been able to acquire British Citizenship by decent from your mother as prior to his birth your mother would have been reclassified as a British Citizen otherwise than by decent and thus eligible to pass on British Citizenship by decent to her children born overseas after 01/01/1983.

It appears that you have been a victim of what some describe as nonsensical legislation and we can only apologise that we are unable to provide you with more welcome news on this occasion. It would appear that should you wish to live and work in the UK you may have to look towards qualifying for entry to the UK under the current immigration rules.

We trust that the above is clear. However, should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards,

yyy

Do you agree with the above, if yes, my friend would not be eligible to obatin British Citizenship.

Thank you very much,

Smit

Smit
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Post by Smit » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:34 am

I hope my post has not been overlooked.

Joseph
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Location: London

Post by Joseph » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:27 pm

Smit,
Actually your post has been looked at about 84 times so far but nobody has responded. No offence intended, but I don't think most of us have the time to go through such an overly-long post, which is why you probably haven't received a reply.
It appears that yyy is a knowledgable immegration advisor, and the advice provided appears to be sound. It is not really the remit of the volunteers on this board to second-guess what appears to be a professional opinion. Normally if you wish to question such advice, you should use another professional who will likely charge a fee.
But perhaps John or Kayalami wish to venture an opinion?
Regards
Joseph

John
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Location: Birmingham, England
United Kingdom

Post by John » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:07 am

Joseph, I think you have "hit the nail on its head" ... the length of the posting! Will I respond? Only after I have read the post, and that will certainly be only in a quiet moment, and absolutely not during the day.
John

Smit
Member of Standing
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Location: London

Post by Smit » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:44 am

I do apologise for the long post but felt it was important to provide the full wording of the correspondence. I have gained a lot through this forum and felt that I should also contribute something which will help others who may find themselves in a similar situation.

I have the greatest respect for the Moderators which is why I posted my query here, some of them have showed far greater knowledge than some High Street immigration advisers.

Please take as much time as is needed.

Thank you very much,

Smit

Joseph
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Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:01 am
Location: London

Post by Joseph » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Smit,
Thanks for your comments.

I still think the yyy has provided correct advice. The easy part pertains to your friend's younger brother. There is no question that he is entitled to British Citizenship under the 1981 Act based on the explanation provided.

The hard part has to do with your friend. Under UK(M) there are 3 requirements that allow BC to be given to people who were previously discriminated against by the pre-1983 rules where nationality could only be passed through the father.
The requirements
You will be entitled to registration if:
1)you were born after 7 February 1961 but before 1 January 1983;
and

2)you were born to a mother who was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time and you would have been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if it had been possible for women to pass on citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies to their children in the same way as men could; and

3)had you been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, you would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom and would have become a British citizen on 1 January 1983.
Your friend meets requirements 1 and 2 but apparently not 3. It is noted that he needs to meet this requirement rather than his mother. But according to the criteria listed by yyy your friend apparently does not. The criteria are below:
B. You will meet the third requirement if:

(i) your mother was, at the time of your birth, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth, legal adoption, naturalisation or registration (except registration on the basis of a marriage on or after 28 October 1971 to a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies) in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands or Isle of Man; or

(ii) one of your mother's parents (the definition of "parent" here excludes the father, but includes the mother, of an illegitimate child) was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies in the way mentioned in (i) above at the time of her birth; or

(iii) you were settled in the United Kingdom before 1983 and had, at that time, been ordinarily resident there for the last 5 years or more; or

(iv) you are a woman who, before 1 January 1983, was or had been married to a man with the right of abode in the United Kingdom.
As yyy points out, if one of the grandparents on the mother's side were UK & Colonies citizens, this would change the picture, but apparently this is not the case, right? The other point already explained is that your friend apparently was not settled in the UK before 1983, which would also have given right of abode and citizenship.

So it seems like the advisor yyy has covered all bases. As yyy points out your friend appears to be a victim of an unfortunate situation which is caused by some very esoteric aspects of the law.

Looking at the options going forward, it is unfortunate about the grandparents not being British because it appears the UK Ancestry visa may be precluded, in spite of the mother currently being British. Any other thoughts on this John and Kayalami?

Sorry I haven't better news here.

Joseph

John
Moderator
Posts: 12320
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Location: Birmingham, England
United Kingdom

Post by John » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:51 pm

Smit wrote :-
Do you agree with the above, if yes, my friend would not be eligible to obatin British Citizenship.
Well let's put it this way .... I have no reason to disagree with what the adviser has written. It seems to me to set out methodically why they have reached the conclusion that they have.

Your friend? Where is the friend living now?

And also, your friend's father? What nationality?
John

Smit
Member of Standing
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: London

Post by Smit » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:46 am

Many thanks for your comments Joseph and John. It is the third requirement that I am not grasping (i.e. my friend having the ROA).

John, to answer your queries, my friend is currently in Kenya. His father is Kenyan (having renounced his British Citizenship with ROA in 1977 just before my friend was born).

Although my friend's mother has now passed away, both her parents are alive and I suspect that they are British Citizens although they were not born in the UK. I can obtain confirmation of this as I am not 100% sure of this.

Joseph
Member of Standing
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:01 am
Location: London

Post by Joseph » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:54 am

So at least the UK Ancestry visa is an option if at least one of the grandparents are British. That means that your friend has full rights in terms of living and working in the UK if he wants to come here. He can even vote, since he is a Commonwealth Citizen.
Joseph

Smit
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Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: London

Post by Smit » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:10 am

This is interesting as we never thought about the Ancestry option as we were focussing on the UKM option. My friend has just confirmed to me the following about his grandparents:

"They are now full British Citizens and have registered as such.

Born in India. They were previously citizines of UK and Colonies"

Would he still be eligible for Ancestry through them even if they were not born in the UK?

Joseph
Member of Standing
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:01 am
Location: London

Post by Joseph » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:33 am

Unfortunately he is not eligible because the grandparents have to be born in the UK.
Do I qualify for UK Ancestry?
You will qualify if you can show that:

-you are a Commonwealth citizen
-you are aged 17 or over
-you have a grandparent who was born in the UK, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man (see note below)
-you have a grandparent who was born in what is now the Republic of Ireland before 31 March 1922 (see note below)
-you are able to work and intend to do so in the UK, and
-you can support yourself and any dependants, and live without needing any help from public funds.

Note: if you or your parent (who you are claiming ancestry through) are adopted, you can still apply for entry under this category. You must show evidence of the legal adoption with your application form.
Back to questions
Sorry, but it looks like that option will not work either. As yyy suggested, he would have to investigate normal immigration routes. This could include Work Permit and HSMP.

Joseph

Smit
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Location: London

Post by Smit » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:41 am

I suspected as much. Thanks for your time Joseph.

Kayalami
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Posts: 1811
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Post by Kayalami » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:00 pm

Sorry I've been out of town and appear to have pretty much missed the boat on this. Will concur with my fellow mods that the relevant advisor appears to have covered all bases in some detail after obviously reviewing the info you provided. Is there a particular issue that you are unsure from his/her feedback and why so or is all resolved now?

Smit
Member of Standing
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: London

Post by Smit » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:40 pm

Kayalami, thank you for your response. I do not fully understand the third requirement which my friend apparently does not satisfy, "Had you been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, you would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom and would have become a British citizen on 1 January 1983".

My friend was required to have stayed for 5 years in the UK, but his brother, born in 1984, was not. Is there any point in lodging an application despite my friend not fulfilling the 3rd requirement? In other words, has he got to lose anything e.g will a refusal jeopardise future visa applications?

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