ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Entering the UK on the Eurostar

Family member & Ancestry immigration; don't post other immigration categories, please!
Marriage | Unmarried Partners | Fiancé | Ancestry

Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, Administrator

Locked
Richard66
Senior Member
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: Italy

Entering the UK on the Eurostar

Post by Richard66 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:20 pm

The answer is found!

When my Russian wife and I (English exercising treaty rights in Italy) passed immigration control in France, prior to boarding for the UK KI asked the imnmigration officers, while they examined my wife's EEA FP what would happens if we had shown up with no permit but with extensive proof of our relationship. They said they would examine the case, that we would be delayed and that we MIGHT be refused and that they had refused people before.

I wonder if we were to try again, in a years's time, say, with proof that my wife once had received the EEA FP (besides a valid marriage certificate) we would be admitted.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:00 pm

What about if you entered with a FP but with no RC from another EU country??? What would happen then??

I'm wondering if I should apply for a FP?? Even though we have no RC (Even though I have been exercising treaty rights in Italy since 2002) (Italy have still not issued a RC for Hubby)

Directive/2004/38/EC
Respected Guru
Posts: 7121
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:09 am
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:36 pm

Richard66,

I am sure you would be admitted next year, so long as you are carrying your marriage certificate, a copy of the UK border agency rules, a copy of the SI which implemenents Directive 2004/38/EC, and a good book and some food for the wait.

Welcome to the UK! Remember the weather is always warm and sunny in the UK.

Did you get the EEA family permit without providing all the unneeded information?

(Richard66 - Your post above is a little hard to read - maybe it needs a bit of editing).
Last edited by Directive/2004/38/EC on Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:50 pm

Really hard to understand??? Ok so I'm an Irish citizen exercising treay rights in Italy, I have been married 3 years to my non EA spouse (visa required). Italy have refused to issue a residence card because my husband was illegal before we married, now in the process of appeal....over a year.
As richard stated he entered the UK through France. Well my question is if I was to apply for a Family Permit - through the Embassy in Italy - As stated below they must issue us with it?? Then would I have problems entering the UK? Because it states on the World Bridge website that you must produce a valid Resident Card along with your previous one in order to see how you entered the country - in order for the Embassy to issue the REsident Permit??? Which is a contradiction to what it now states on the UKBA website???

EUN2.2 Where can an EEA family permit be issued?

EEA family permits may be obtained from any visa issuing post. It is not necessary for an applicant to be lawfully or normally resident in the country to apply.

Directive/2004/38/EC
Respected Guru
Posts: 7121
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:09 am
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:37 pm

ciaramc wrote:Really hard to understand???
I was actually trying to refer to Richard66's original post. I have edited my post to be a bit more clear.

ciaramc, Would italy have any problem with you leaving Italy and then reentering?

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Re: Entering the UK on the Eurostar

Post by 86ti » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:21 pm

Richard66 wrote:... what would happens if we had shown up with no permit but with extensive proof of our relationship. They said they would examine the case, that we would be delayed and that we MIGHT be refused and that they had refused people before.
I think that's pretty much what their border code says: Either you have a UK issued family permit or be prepared to proof your case.

What I wonder is that you being Richard66 didn't you lecture them about their illegal actions? :D

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:01 am

Sorry thought you were talking about my post!!

They don't have a problem with me leaving.....I go home for holidays all the time!!! I have even visited my husbands family without him obviously!!! Because if he leaves they will not let him back in!!

Richard I hope you gave them a good lecture!!

Directive/2004/38/EC
Respected Guru
Posts: 7121
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:09 am
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:05 am

ciaramc wrote:They don't have a problem with me leaving.....I go home for holidays all the time!!! I have even visited my husbands family without him obviously!!! Because if he leaves they will not let him back in!!
I was actually interested in your husband, but again did not write clearly. I just assumed you can come and go.

I am not actually 100% sure that if he leaves they will not let him back in. It could be that by leaving to, for example, France for a day he would no longer be illegally in Italy and (since he is your husband) he would be legally in France. Next day you return legally to Italy. Just a thought. You will of course need proof of your residence in France for that day.

Have you made a petition to the European Parliament? Any response?

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:51 am

Yes I have made a complaint to the Commission received a responce from the Citizenship/Justice department to say that they are making a case against Italy on our behalf....we were asked to submit all the documentation which we did.......that was November still waiting to hear from them.....I have emailed a couple of times to no avail!

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:00 am

This is the responsce I got off the Commission -

Thank you for your letter concerning the issue of a residence permit in Italy for your husband.
You are an Irish national and have been living and working in Italy since 2002. You where married to a Moroccan citizen in July 2006, and consequently proceeded to apply for a resident permit for him. You claim that the Italian authorities refused to issue him with such a permit in April 2008 and that they founded their refusal on the fact that your husband had previously resided illegally in Italy (without a valid visa).
As far as Community law on free movement is concerned, you have exercised the right to move and reside freely in an EU Member State other than your own.
Article 18 of the Treaty stipulates that every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in this Treaty and by the measures adopted to give it effect.
Article 5 of the Directive 2004/38/EC provides that family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa1 in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 when residence is sought within the "Schengen" area2. No family reunification visa is needed. Morocco is listed in Annex I ofregulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 among the countries whose nationals are required to be in possession of a visa when crossing the external borders ofthe "Schengen" area.
Family members ofUnion citizen who are third country nationals can apply for residence card according to Articles 7 (2), 9 and 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. The host Member State shall only require presentation of a valid passport, a document attesting the existence of a family relationship and the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining.
I Judgement of 14 Apri12005, case C-157/03 Commission vs Spain. 2 States in the "Schengen" area: Belgium, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Austria, Greece, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Slovenia, Malta, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
Commission europeenne, B-1 049 Bruxelles / Europese Commissie, B-1 049 Brussel -Belgium. Telephone: (+32-2) 299 11 11. Office: LX 46 -01/083. Telephone: direct line (+32-2) 296.56.10. Fax: (+32-2) 297.95.86
Article 10 (1) of Directive 2004/38/EC states that the residence card shall be issued no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application.
The European Court of Justice has held that a Member State is not permitted to refuse issue of a residence permit and to issue an expulsion order against a third country national who is able to furnish proof of his identity and ofhis marriage to a national of a Member State on the sole ground that he has entered the territory of the Member State concerned unlawfulll.
On the basis of Article 15 (1) read in conjunction with Article 30 (2) of the same Directive, your husband should have been informed, precisely and in full, ofthe grounds on which the refusal to issue him with a residence card was based, unless this is contrary to the interest of State security.
In view of the above, the Italian authorities may be acting contrary to the provisions of the Directive by requesting your husband to apply for a family reunification visa instead of an entry visa, by refusing your husband's application for a residence card as a family member of a Union citizen, by asking for supporting documents other than those listed in the Directive , by not delivering a decision in less than six months and by failing to inform you precisely and in full of the reason of any administrative act restricting the right offree movement and residence.
I invite you to inform me precisely which Italian authorities are involved in your case (Comune, Questura, Prefettura ) as well as your husband's full contact details (name, address, etc). This would permit my services to follow up the case with the relevant Italian autorithies.
As you have not indicated your choice concerning confidentiality, the Commission is not authorised to disclose your identities where it makes representations to the national authorities. Should you consider that authorising the Commission to disclose your identities in its contacts with the national authorities would be preferable as it would allow the Commission and the national authorities to refer to the particulars of your case, please indicate that to us in writing.
Yours sincerely,

Richard66
Senior Member
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Richard66 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:44 am

I am using a mini computer, which maybe made me write a mini post.

What I meant was: I noticed the immigration officers seemed almost human, so, as one of them was checking my wife's EEA FP I asked him if she would still be allowed through without the EEA FP but with extensive proof of our relationship, including marriage certificate. The answer was, "depends".

Ciaramc, they will ask for your husband's residence card when exiting, though, if he has none, I am not sure they can do much. Maybe they would try to expel him (illegaly). What I have not understood is, why do you not go to Morocco and from Morocco apply for an entry visa for him? The problem is all that he had no entry visa. My wife had no problem because she had one, even if it was a visa as a tourist.

Documents? We answered few of the needless information, though we did say she would be looking for work! I gave no address in the UK. In several places we wrote, "information not required". We provided no payslips, no bank statements, though we did provide residence cards, letters from employers and from banks, but these were mostly to prove we live together, are married, have known each other for dot years and so on. We said she was pregnant and incuded her pregnacy certificate and a letter from my UK emplyer, but this was to make them deliver PDQ. We did, however, forget to take our marriage certificate! Eventually we sent some copies by fax.

I also let them know we know the law.

I saw no reason to lecture the immigration officers. They are only doing what they are told to do. I will, however, make another complaint to to European Commission, and I am not going to be too nice either. Over two years and they have done aboslutely nothing, except guarantee we are right.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:55 pm

The reason we do not go to Morocco....is that they had issued him with an expulsion order....which is not even legal!!

So if he goes back they should issue him in accordance with the directive.....a entry visa!!! But in theory they won't.....friends of ours now now stuck in Morocco almost 8 months because of this exact thing!! Her a EU citizen him Moroccan fgiven explusion order in Italy now been told that he is banned for 5 years!!

Anyway work and stucff is stopping me from going and doing this!! I can not pack up go to Morocco and wait for them to issue his visa!! And we have every right for him to be issued with the card here!! Why should we go to Morocco and get a entry visa when it clearly states that we do not need one if he is already here and we have proof of a existing relationship!!

You know how everything works in Italy long and drawn out! If we went to morocco we would have to wait for Italy to remove the explusion order....which from reading tutto....seems to take months??? Then apply for the visa!!!

It is all a load of crap....sick of the whole system but since we have been battling years not going to give up now....I just read on the UKBA website as stated above that a EU citizen and third country spouse....can apply from as visa issueing post with or without legal residence???

This applies to our situation no???

Richard66
Senior Member
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Richard66 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Ah... He has had an expulsion order! Now I see why they are making such trouble. You could get to the UK, for example, then apply for a residence card, but how would you return to Italy? The expulsion order must be upturned first.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

ciaramc
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:43 am

Post by ciaramc » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:41 am

Well actually just wanted your opinions....if I was to apply for the permit??? think I would get it??? Well my husband???

Afterwards don't want to come back to Italy my main aim is to get to Ireland!!

I'm nearly done with Italy !! :roll:

Locked